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Thread: Lock testing

  1. #21
    Spyderco Forum Registered User i.v's Avatar
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    everyone that buys a knife tests to see if the knife saisfies them, i think it's safe to say everyone here tests their knife for sharpness on regular basis, when you bought it you probably tested various grips or if you can move the clip elsewhere & so on, testing the lock is a legitimate thing to do because as much as i trust spyderco, i will not blindly trust any knife (or any other potentially dangerous object for that matter) without making sure it's safe, not even a fixed blade.
    so the question is, like Sal said, when does testing cross the line to abuse?
    spinewhacking is a reasonable test, while you work, it's quite possible the knife recieves a light whack in it's spine, it happened me & probably to many others, so no reason not to test for it but first, several things must be taken into account:
    what is the knife designed to do? for a delica it's enough to survive a light whack against my palm but obviously it's not enough for a chinook.
    what would happen if the lock failed? those of you that have natives, take them for a minute, hold them with the finger in choil & then disengage the lock - the blade can't reach the fingers because of the choil.. i even took this one step further, i disengaged the lock when my finger was in the frn choil & let the blade drop - again, the blade choil prevented any dmg to my fingers. so in the case of the native for example, a lock failure is most likely to cause you no injury so in this particular knife there's no reason to test the lock at all. on the Centofante III on the other hand there's no choil & no kick, if the lock failed you would be injured, however, it's a genteman's folder so it should see no use capable of causing lock failure & light pressure with your thumb while the blade is open is probably all the test you need.
    to sum up, it's a legitimate thing to test your lock, but excersizing common sense in testing will prevent both damage to your knife & injury to you.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by i.v
    what is the knife designed to do? for a delica it's enough to survive a light whack against my palm but obviously it's not enough for a chinook.
    But the thing is, my Delica for example can withstand the hardest spine whacking I can imagine without any problem, not only light whacks against the palm. If a Chinook/Manix can't (like some people here have experienced), there's something wrong with it, IMO.

    It may be abuse or void warranty, but why can I abuse a relatively cheap FRN model and the top notch working knife fails?
    Last edited by Tungsten; 10-15-2005 at 10:32 AM.

  3. #23
    Spyderco Forum Registered User i.v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tungsten
    But the thing is, my Delica for example can withstand the hardest spine whacking I can imagine without any problem, not only light whacks against the palm. If a Chinook/Manix can't (like some people here have experienced), there's something wrong with it, IMO.

    It may be abuse or void warranty, but why can I abuse a relatively cheap FRN model and the top notch working knife fails?

    this is exactly what i mean, if the delica can whithstand the hardest spinewhacking you can imagine, that's fine, but it shouldn't have to & testing it for it will be destrctive, if your chinnok\manix fails the lightest whack then yes, there is something wrong with it & it should be examined.
    don't be confused though, when testing the knife, you're not supposed to bring it to it's limits because even if it can handle it for a while it's not indestructable & will eventually fail, there is also no need for repeating the test, whack once, if the lock didn't fail you can be happy, there's no need to whack it until it actually does fail.

  4. #24
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    I believe that a light to medium spine whack was RECOMENDED by Sal in a certain thread, as a matter of fact he suggested to do that from time to time as a safety test. So, obviously, Sal is not talking about that kind of spine whacking, rather, his criticism is directed to exaggerations in 'testing'. Cliff tested the limits of a Chinook folder - however, this doesn't mean to be a normal knife use. Just finding the limits.

    Once an unusual lock failure happens it is very important to send it to Spyderco so that they could examine it and find the cause of failure.

    I have a feeling (being a physicist), there is a certain type of strike (a fast, strong, short time force) which sometimes transfer the momentum causing the recoil (jump) of the 'security part' which otherwise keeps the blade fixed. One should think about that and see if it could be avoided.

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by i.v
    this is exactly what i mean, if the delica can whithstand the hardest spinewhacking you can imagine, that's fine, but it shouldn't have to & testing it for it will be destrctive, if your chinnok\manix fails the lightest whack then yes, there is something wrong with it & it should be examined.
    don't be confused though, when testing the knife, you're not supposed to bring it to it's limits because even if it can handle it for a while it's not indestructable & will eventually fail, there is also no need for repeating the test, whack once, if the lock didn't fail you can be happy, there's no need to whack it until it actually does fail.
    I totally agree with you, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

    I'm just saying that a Manix in theory should be able to handle more abuse/destructive testing/whatever than a Delica.

    Is it abuse? Sure. Should it by covered by warranty. Hell no. Does hard spine whacking make sense? Probably not.

  6. #26
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    Hi fans!

    this posting in the beginning was meant for Robīs thread http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17692 "Failing lock on Cara Cara and Manix", but fits in here as well.

    @Rob: thank You for testing and for sharing. the film material is good enough for me to see what happened. iīm really sorry about your broken Manix.

    @Vincent: i never saw or heard that a compression lock has failed, right

    @Michael Cook: watch this rather hard griptilian spine whack test. the griptilian held open with only one omega spring left.: http://benchmadeforum.com/groupee/fo...1383#778101383

    @Gerard Breuker: good point, better test before fingers are cut off.

    i see it absolutely in the same way as Keno.
    in my opinion the reliability of locks should correspond with what they were advertised for. if a firm tells in advertising a certain knife is MBC rated and/or designed by a well known knife fighting expert and/or tell directly or indirectly it can serve well for SD then the lock of every single of those knives should be bomb proved. i found it then not enough e.g. to check every 100th knife for failure or to say "if it has failed, send it back on high priority". if it has failed you are maybe dead and canīt send it in anymore.

    i am really astonished how many times i have read about failing Spyderco front locks and lockproblems. first i saw a picture of an open manix lock that obviously did not fit well. then i read of several spine whack failiures and even of a broken front lock spring. i donīt know if the manix is ment for SD but it has the same lock as the chinook II and these lock problems are really frightening.

    in other words, if a knife is advertised for utility use only while excluding MBC you can be rather sure beforehand it will be an unsafe tool if it really counts.

    is it possible that a front lock spring is not as strong as a back lock spring? e.g. i never have heard of problematic Buck back locks. maybe there were and are more problems with locks in knives of other top brands, that i donīt know. but why then those customers donīt tell them in forums? maybe Spyderco customers tell it more often because Spyderco seems to and i think does care by far most for their customers (in forums)?

    i donīt own any backlock or frontlock yet and i have truly to say after all i saw, heard and read of their quality dispersion the last days i have prejudices. Spyderco seems not to test every single one before it leaves the plant and customers should not test them too, if i have understand You right, Sal. i am not sure if the index finger choil would really save my fingers in case of a lock failure. there is a good chance it would but because of my doubts right now i prefer other locks, e.g. the compression lock or fixed blades.

    maybe there should be a additional safety feature like in extrema ratio backlocks to assure reliability for MBC purposes. but this wonīt help, if the lock spring breaks like Robīs did. i just remember that Spyderco advertised the Military in catalog 2000 for "tactical applications", in catalog 2001 and 2002 for "even tactical usage" and in catalog 2003 as "worthy of the title "tactical"". maybe the Military should also be made safer for advertised purposes by adding a LAWKS.

    one should tell ELU`s that a folder in general often not is ment to bet your life on. i have the feeling many fans think they can do that, maybe driven by positive advertising and stories of how much and how hard several knives are tested in their development. that is why we probably are so hit from the results of those simple light tests Rob did. Thank You again for this, Rob. even the strong seeming Manix broke rather easily. when i asked for a fixed blade Paramilitary not one single reader showed interest. btw how about a fixed Lilī Temperance? one should be aware that comfort of a folder can have a high price in a bad situation.

    btw, there is a german saying from the middle ages (women may overlook a part of it ):

    Den Tag lob abends, die Frau im Tode
    Das Schwert wennīs versucht ist.
    (Havamal)

    The day praise in the evening, the woman in death
    the sword if it is tried.
    (Havamal)

    Best wishes
    JB

  7. #27
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    My vote is for the ELU performing a single spinewhack meant to test the reliability of the lock, not the impact resistance of the materials involved. That, plus a white-knuckle test and a light torquing in a semi-pliable material (i.e. poke the blade into a stack of cardboard and lightly twist the knife's handle both clockwise and counter-clockwise) should reveal a knife's true colors.

    Should more forceful tests be used for heavy-duty or extra heavy-duty style locks? Well, if not, it's just taking the maker's word for it. If you refuse to warrant tests of your statements, but keep saying your knives are ridiculously strong, well, that's only a knock against people willing to believe you. Maybe better tests need to be devised for the ELU to trust the maker's statements without the ELU feeling compelled to use the spine of the pocket knife as a timpani baton.

    Should repetitive tests be performed? I don't think so because every material will eventually succumb to fatigue.

    So far, every folding knife I've owned has survived spinewhacks. Most of the fixed blades have, too.
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  8. #28
    Spyderco Forum Registered User vampyrewolf's Avatar
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    I'd wager that if I spinewacked 1/2 my collection, they'd fail... but what do you expect from a slipjoint

    I've spent 16yrs using slipjoints, as compared to 7 with spydies, and about 8 using fixed blades in EDC. Haven't managed to close a knife on my fingers yet, but thats using them as it's designed. A lock is simply a method of keeping the blade open, beyond the pressure your fingers can apply. The last time my grip was tested(thursday) was 56kg on right, 46kg on left for max. That means I can put out some decent force with my fingers. If I can't force the knife closed with my hands, then it's more than secure enough for daily use. If I can close it with my hands and it's not a slipjoint, then I don't get it.

    Just keep your knife clean and oiled, and trust that the lock is built to last. check once in a while if you want(I check with my hands when I sharpen any knife), but trust the manufacturer to build it reliable enough.

    I've grown up with slipjoints, and treat every knife the same, irregardless of lock type.
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  9. #29
    Spyderco Forum Registered User idj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampyrewolf
    I'd wager that if I spinewacked 1/2 my collection, they'd fail... but what do you expect from a slipjoint

    I've spent 16yrs using slipjoints, as compared to 7 with spydies, and about 8 using fixed blades in EDC. Haven't managed to close a knife on my fingers yet, but thats using them as it's designed. A lock is simply a method of keeping the blade open, beyond the pressure your fingers can apply. The last time my grip was tested(thursday) was 56kg on right, 46kg on left for max. That means I can put out some decent force with my fingers. If I can't force the knife closed with my hands, then it's more than secure enough for daily use. If I can close it with my hands and it's not a slipjoint, then I don't get it.

    Just keep your knife clean and oiled, and trust that the lock is built to last. check once in a while if you want(I check with my hands when I sharpen any knife), but trust the manufacturer to build it reliable enough.

    I've grown up with slipjoints, and treat every knife the same, irregardless of lock type.
    This is good, VW! I do like your reasoning. This is more or less what I meant in the thread I started about the magazine article. I did try to spine whack all my s and some of my other knives just out of curiousity though, and none failed. My luck I guess. But I won't be making spine whacking a regular test or benchmark.
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  10. #30
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    I for one, cannot believe all the fuss about people "spinewacking" knives to the nth degree. This happened a couple years ago over on BladeForums, and appears to have surfaced over here now.

    To those genuinely concerned about the strength of your locks, test by your own methods. Is hitting the back of the blade on your dresser repeatedly with great force indicative of normal use??? I have tested my own knives, and they all pass.

    -Vincent- although I disagree with almost everything you post, you brought up a good point about locks and their failures. I disagree most about your claims against Benchmade's customer service. They have a great CS team and will do anything to help out customers, just like Spyderco does.

    These company forums sure are a double edged sword for people like Sal. They are great for instant gratification when things go right, but when there is a problem....oh boy!! It seems like when one lock fails, so does 20 other people's. Hmm..

  11. #31
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    Ever have to call DirecWay or SBC? Sheesh!!

    I have had great luck with BM, for what its worth.

  12. #32
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    Every knife we make is spine wacked a number of times in the manufacturing process. This is normal for us and is probably normal for most companies that care about safety.

    I also recommend occasional spine wacking to safety test. I do this and think it is a good thing to do. Fingers are precious.

    If you have a failure. I think it's very important to notify the manufacturer and send the failure to them so they can analyze the parts and determine what the problem was and how to avoid such a problem in the future. While we take every precaution to make a safe knife, a flaw is always possible.

    Obviously there is a problem if a lock fails. I don't think the problem can be solved or determined by words on a forum. There are only a number of reasons a lock can fail. They can be examined and determined.

    To date, I have not received any of the knives back that have been the objects of complaint. Certainly if the problem was something we did, we will, and have always replaced the knife. We're known for that. And it also provides us with an opportunity to study and improve whatever it was that could be at fault.

    I don't think it's a good idea to bash any companies and I would prefer that you do not do it here. All knife companies have many challenges to deal with in their production. Pobody's Nerfect. Even the majors have "recalls".

    If you have a problem with one of my knives, I would like to opportunity to inspect and solve the problem. We make many thousands of knives every month. Occasionally we get a problem piece. If this happens, we try to solve the problem and please the customer.

    Debris or dirt can impede the funtion of a lock.
    Material failure can cause a part to fail:
    Heat treat problems.
    A hidden flaw in the material itself.
    Fatigue of the part itself.
    Springs can break.
    Geometry can be off.
    Even a burr in the wrong place can cause a problem.

    If you would be so kind as to send us a problem, we can take care of it. If you do not, we cannot.

    Perhaps, with dialectic, we can determine a "proper" universal test for knives. Find that line between safety test and destructive test. Until then, we will continue to make our products as best we can and continually improve them as we learn how to.

    sal

  13. #33
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Sundown's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thank you, Mr. Glesser

    My Manix will ship out tomorrow, sir.

    Sincerely,
    Sundown
    GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent
    The BM 710 had a actual defect in it, The axis bar rolled i think.
    Nope, the axis lock, and similarly the ball lock by spyderco, are designed so that it doesn't matter if the locking piece (bar or ball) rotates. It allows for wear over a much greater surface and prolongs the life of the lock.

    You should give BM a second shot...they certainly don't have the second worse customer service department in my universe. I have always been very happy with their service.

    But, you said it right here, you are going to take advantage of a manufacturer as much as you can; Karma?

    Thom

  15. #35
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    I, for one, would be very interested to hear what the final story is on that BM 710. I just don't see how it can fail like that--not without something catastrophically breaking or shearing, or some funny business.

    I think it's safe to say that the recent spate of reports of lockbacks failing is due not to just one cause but to a coincidental combination of a few things all at one time: some actual problems on specific knives, some issues of lint or other things precluding full lockup, and some tall tales. That's usually how these things come together.

  16. #36
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    I've never had an axis lock fail and for the longest time I had only ever heard of two failures and both occurred during spinewhacks - one with a customer-made blade replacing the factory blade. I haven't bought a Benchmade knife in over two years, but I've always enjoyed excellent customer service from them and dependable axis lock goodness.
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  17. #37
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Jimd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sal

    I personally know someone that intentionally destroys products because the "warrantee" permits him to. I believe that Mick had some interesting comments about these types.

    The goal, at least for Spyderco is to create and produce safe, reliable high performance products for our customers. Anything that we can do to improve our products in those areas is always at the forefront of our R&D.
    sal
    Sal, a very good point. Both Strider and Spyderco have the same end goal in mind: to give the consumer the best piece of equipment that they possibly can. I know that's a bit general in nature, but I think it captures most of it.

    Personally, I like to check whatever knife I buy, from any manufacturer, to make sure it locks up well. I've had locks on various knives, from various manufacturers slip or fail. But I don't beat the living hell out of my knives, as a general rule, just to see if they'll fail. I think a milder test is sufficient. I let the knife's maker do the destructive tests, and tend to take care of my knives.

    Good to hear from you, Sal.
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  18. #38
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Jimd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sal
    I don't think it's a good idea to bash any companies and I would prefer that you do not do it here. All knife companies have many challenges to deal with in their production. Pobody's Nerfect. Even the majors have "recalls".

    If you have a problem with one of my knives, I would like to opportunity to inspect and solve the problem.
    sal
    It doesn't get a lot better than this, guys. Very classy post, Sal.

    To test my knives, I don't even do a spine whack. I grip the handle and the blade as firmly as I can, and then try to close the knife without taking the lock off. And I try my best (while keeping digits out of the way). If it doesn't close, it's good to go.

    Regarding trying to break knives just to take advantage of the warranty....I think that's retarded. It's nothing more than taking advantage of a company or a maker's kindness, and serves absolutely no useful purpose.

    Sure, Strider says that if you manage to break it, they'll replace it. And they will. But doing so just for the fun of it is very childish. They make their knives for serious users (ie. soldiers, law enforcement, people who trust their lives to their knives), who sometimes break them in the performance of their duties. These are serious people with serious jobs. And then some high school kid comes along and, after much effort and peril to himself, manages to break one of their knives, they have to allocate resources to fix/replace it. That's just retarded.

    Knife makers warranty their knives so serious users are covered, not so some children can see if "they really can break them". Well, yes, any knife can be broken; the manufacturers will tell you that, as Sal has said here. They know, they break their knives in testing, so we don't have to.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent
    I Know if I buy somthing like a strider. Im going to break, abuse and take advantage of the company.

    If ya dont like people like me, maybe you should change your warrenty. Because in general Im only doing what the Manufacture wants me to do.

    Are you serious about this or are you trolling??? If you are serious, then...wow....

  20. #40
    Spyderco Forum Registered User Vincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx7.62
    Are you serious about this or are you trolling??? If you are serious, then...wow....
    Yes Im 100% serious.

    If the company advertises there knives to do a task, I will do that task, if they advertise them as invincible tools, then I will treat them as so. I will break and abuse that tool, as return it as many times as possible, if they dont like it they should change there policies. If They dont fix or replace it, I sue them.

    But if Strider is telling the truth, then they have nothing to worry about because there knife wont break.

    See a company like spuderco does not advertise there knives for abuse, so I dont abuse the knives.
    Last edited by Vincent; 10-17-2005 at 06:27 AM.

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