Let's talk about locks

[thombrogan]

Pyrochazm,

Have you tried any linerlocks with the LAWKS added to them? My CRKT M16-014Z doesn't have one, but my CRKT Mt. Ranier does and it's an impressive safety mechanism to me.

[Petorro]

Thanks Pyrochazm. Your message confirms my suspects, and I'll leave linerlocks to those who want their fingers cut.
Anyway, thombrogan, I posted my doubts on linerlocks on other forums and I got a couple of answers suggesting me to check out the LAWKS system.
So I'll try to see if I can find a knife with that system to test out.

A la prochaine!
Petorro.

[thombrogan]

Petorro,

Knives that offer the LAWKS system include the Harsey Tactical folders sold by Lonewolf, most every linerlock sold by CRKT, and the folding Applegate-Fairbairn knives sold by Gerber.

[Pyrochazm]

I might have to have a look at the "LAWKS" system. I used to be a fan of liner locks for obvious reasons: Smooth operation (Even on junk knives) and one-hand operation. But I know have a misshapen pinkie (My own fault, but the lock DID fail) thanks to them. This Lawks system sounds interesing though. How does it work?

[thombrogan]

The LAWKS system works by placing a semicircular disk in the way of the top of the locking liner. Were you to push the liner with your thumb or torque the blade in a solid object, the semicircular disk keeps the liner from slipping off of the bottom of the blade.

[Pyrochazm]

Hey neat, mebe I'll give it a look

[cdf]

My two copper coins :
Lockbacks ,( mid and front ) : OK is done right , I've had spring breakages ( one kershaw,one Spyde , and one custom ) Rear lockbacks a'la Buck 110 - forget it !

Liner locks : The good , bad and the ugly , I've got some you would be hard pressed to fail and some you could fail at the drop of a hat . LAWKS : Just a patch on a leaky bucket , prolly wont be used in a stress situation (when most needed ) Buying a linerlock is like lending out your toothbrush , be VERY selective .

Frame locks (a'la Chris Reeves ) : Great & simple but suck if not properly executed .They look like they impose design constrainsts on handles.

Compression lock , & some variants : Seems nice and solid . I'd be happier to see it in Ti .

Axis lock ( the only one of this ganre I know ) : Very nice and smooth , very versitile , deff. a front runner!

Spyde. Ball lock : (a'la Dodo ) good when properly fitted , deceptivley simple ,but needs good Q.C. . My Dodo failed with lite pressurs o the back of blade , since corrected by me .

All heavy duty / hard use knives should have a functional choil . It saved me from a nasty cut when my Dodo let go !

Please accept these observations in the spirit in which they are offered .

[SouthNarc]

Has anyone had a compression lock fail? Other than the Gunting, what models use the compression lock?

[thombrogan]

Other locks that feature the compression lock include:

Li'l Temperance
ATR
Salsa
Ti Salsa
Older versions of Centofante's Vesuvius

I haven't heard of any failures and that's odd because people love sharing bad news. Especially when it's directed at great companies like Spyderco. We've heard of failing liner locks, failing lockbacks, failing Axis locks, failing framelocks, failing Ball Bearing Locks, but no failing Compression Locks.

[haji]

I couldn't read all the pages of this thread, becuase I'm at work right now. I didn't see much in the way of observances of dealers and what customers are saying. In my neck of the woods (SoCal), liner locks are king, and most people seem to want them. My opinion is that they're going to have a rep for failing because so many cheap knives are using them to fill a trend. Linerlocks are the easiest to botch, and even the highest end versions can have sticky lock bars. For people looking for a slim knife, the mid lock is the slimmest design I know of. It is a selling point for these knives. The Axis has indeed sold well. The knock offs of it, like the Arc Lock, work OK, but SOG's folders of late have been pretty poorly executed. Really, the bottom line is this: if a lock works smoothly, locks up well (no play in the blade), and IS DIFFERENT, it'll sell. My customers are looking for new locks and new designs all the time.

The Centofante 3 has already sold much faster than the Vesuvius did. It makes far more sense as a midlock than it did as a compression lock. That one is a tough sell, against the Axis and the liner/frame lock.

[alickw]

Hi guys, I've been away from the forum for a couple of years so it's interesting catching up with this thread. I have a few Spyderco lockbacks and the linerlock military. I'm very happy with all of them.

Out of curiousity and in the spirit of the thread I'd be interested in comments on the design of linerlock used in the Microtech vector. This uses a separate piece of steel for the linerlock rather than being formed from the liner itelf. It always struck me as being more substantial and potentially stronger than any other linerlock I've used, but I don't fancy testing it hard enough to find out.

I like the sound of the compression lock - perhaps the best yet - but just haven't had the chance to play with one. I love the smoothness of spyderco's ball bearing lock but find it a bit fiddly to close. Great engineering though !

Also looking forward to Sal's interpretation of the slip joint for those of us over here in the UK.

Cheers, Alick

[Michael Janich]

Great thread with lots of great input. Thanks, Sal, for inspiring such a good discussion.

I'd just like to mention that all locks consist of three elements: design, engineering, and execution. A great design that is poorly engineered or executed will inevitably yield a crappy lock. That's why liner locks have such a bad reputation -- there are more examples of poorly executed liner locks out there than probably any other type of lock. Properly executed, however, I like them. My favorites, as Alickw described, are those with separate locking bars rather than split liners. In addition to Microtech, this type of lock was also used in all the original Masters of Defense knives and is still used in the James Keating Hornet.

I was very impressed with the original compression lock, which is why I opted for it when given a choice of locks for my Spyderco Yojimbo design (one of the knives that missed thrombrogan's list, along with the Paramilitary). I like the way the Paramilitary did away with the milled shelf in the tang/ricasso of the Gunting and Lil' Temperance, yet still provided a good detent function by wrapping around the kick of the blade. I wish the engineering of the Yojimbo could have included this feature as well.

Also, although I am still a great fan of the compression lock, I still don't understand why the first production knives had some vertical blade play. Current production models are very solid and live up to the potential of the lock. Sal, did you ever determine the exact nature of the problem with the early Yojimbos?

Finally, one lock that I'd like to add to the list if I may is the plunge lock -- basically a push-button lock based on the release button used on most modern automatic knives. Does anyone have any thoughts on or experiences with these?

Again, thanks for a great thread.

Stay safe,

[cdf]

Funny you should mention that mr. J. I just aquired a pre Blackhawk version of the D.Dieter CQD . It looks plenty strong ! I worry a bit about mud/dust/sand . I'm also looking at some of the small Blackhawk/MOD folders , They seem plenty strong in relation to size and weight ! The plunge locks are not fast closers , generally that is not a huge issue , however it is not a positive onehand close .

[Michael Janich]

Dear cdf:

Thanks for your post. Actually, the manual plunge locks are included among the lock mechanisms that you can close one-handed without having to put your fingers in the way of the blade (Axis locks, Arc locks, compression locks, and rolling locks also fall into this category). With a plunge lock, just push the button to release the lock and swing the blade down into the handle. Obviously, this won't work with autos, but it should work fine with the manuals.

Stay safe,

[TheSurgeon]

1. Lockbacks: Not too complicated and easy to make reliable, they suffer from two problems. One, the stronger you make the lock, the harder the knife is to open. Two, it is difficult to close one-handed, and some blade shapes (Civilian) make it rather perilous to close one-handed. The Boye-type cut-out is a must have refinement. A mid or front position for the lock-back is essential for easier one-hand closing.

I absolutely disagree with Carlos about the Civilian(!)
I can take it off from my waist and slam it open without touching the thumb hole in 1 second (!) - and close it one handed and clip it back on to the waist in 2 seconds.
I have never cut myself by doing it - and I believe I never will.
Bottom line - I like lockbacks because they are simple strong and reliable.
It's one of the oldest locking mechanism not without a reason.
I have tried out many other types, but lockbaks are the best for me - period.
I especially like the lockbacks with a little hump on the locking back (like Delika, Civilian)
so the my thumb can find it's place right away when it's comes to closing the blade.
I believe in lockbacks so much that I don't buy the Military because it's not a lockback, even that Military is my favorite design if I am not looking the weight and the locking mechanism. - but I don’t want to confuse myself having too many different kind of knifes with different locking mechanism... when it comes to play how fast I can have my knife in the ready position I am sure that I'm not going to have enough time to think - if it's a lockback or not so I keep every knife with the same locking mechanism. - everything should be routine and fast. If the time of drawing a blade doesn't matter than whatever what locking mechanism you have, just have to be safe and strong..
TheSurgeon

[DAYWALKER]

Aloha!

Wow...VERY late for this one!

I like lockbacks, but I also like liner locks...they're smooth! I just pray that one day, if a knife is done with the liner lock ala Walker or Reeve's style, it will be made for southpaws also. Even if just a sprint run of left handed versions...

I ALWAYS get "bummed out" when I go to The Deacon's site, and NOT see Crickets, Walker's, Herbst's, Military's (Although I know he has one..or a few even! ), Viele's, Lum's, etc...because, and I hope it's safe to assume this Paul, he is left handed!

I don't know how feasible it would be to do a sprint for southpaws, but I think it should be a standard procedure on ONLY the BEST SELLERS, which posses this type of lock, i.e.: Cricket! ( I say best sellers because in that way, it would be feasible IMHO) While I'm a righty, I would buy a few southpaw liner lock versions of ANY for that matter!


God bless!

[The Deacon]

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DISCLAIMER: CHECK THE DATES, THIS THREAD IS OVER 4 YEARS OLD
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But it is interesting, and JD was looking for it, so I resurected it.

[JD Spydo]

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DISCLAIMER: CHECK THE DATES, THIS THREAD IS OVER 4 YEARS OLD
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But it is interesting, and JD was looking for it, so I resurected it.

This is the thread I was talking about for sure. But I could have swore that there was more pages to it than this Probably because I used so much paper when I printed a copy for myself. I see this thread actually originated in 2001 and I could have also swore that it was a 2004 thread.

Oh well it's up and running and maybe it was an apropos time to re-ignite it

But I was right about most of it anyway. I bet there's not many Spyderites that even remembered this thread so give me just a little credit anyway

[Lord Bear]

This is a truly great thread. Thank you again Spydo and Deacon.

[VashHash]

It is an interesting read. I was curious about earlier comp locks and the vertical play issue. I have an orginal para that has the issue and a yojimbo that does it too. Nothing that really concerns me just curious. We can add the cbbl to the list now too. Again I know this thread is over 10years old from the start and its obviously being brought back again. I think maybe we can add some more input. As sal stated this wasn't a race anyway. It takes time to evaluate a lock.