Fake Delica from China, but nicely made for $7.00.

[Karen]

The top knife is the real thing, the bottom one is the fake. It is very well made and the blade locks up very tight. This is not a typical cheap Chinese fake. Swap meet guy said they are 440 steel or Chinese equivalent. I paid $7.00 (1/2 price due to loose pocket clip)

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/6875/pict0001an.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/pict0001an.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[dialex]

Now this is something new, indeed.
I used to know of a SS Endura clone, but at least it didn't have the round hole:
http://www.knifezilla.com/catalog/media/prodimg/08/ENDURANCESTEEL.jpg

[ValueKnifeLover]

That delica has to be the best fake ever. Dang.

[cosmo7809]

Wow, that is one of the best I've seen as well..

Amazing huh..

[Karen]

When you look at the quality of Byrd and other Chinese made knives, you realize that if the right company fakes these knives, and can import and sell them for 1/5 or 1/10 the cost, American companies are in real trouble. This fake is as good as a Byrd in my opinion. Almost as good as the real Delica made in Japan.
Since Chinese knife makers are making quality knives for almost all American and European companies now, why not just copy good high end knives like Spyderco and make 1000 times more profit, and raise prices when US companies fail. Since they then control the market. Isn't that what Japan did in the 1960's - 1980's with TV, Radio and Electronics?
And since US companies have fired all their employees to have products made in China, who will buy these products now that US workers have no jobs?
I suddenly feel very sick inside. Our future economy is in real trouble.
Ford, GM, etc kept factories open in hard times because US auto workers bought cars they made. Toyota, Mazda, Nissan's are made in Japan, why are we buying Japanese cars? Because they are of high quality and WERE cheaper than US cars. Now they cost more.
This really scares me. Seriously. I feel sick inside about this recession we are in. How can we ever get out of it?

[sal]

Hi Karen,

Thanx for the input.

It is a very real problem and you are one of the more aware to be able to see it. I share your concern. What to do about it is a very complex question for which the solution seems evasive.

There is the assumption that there is or should be an "even playing field". This is an unrealistic assumption. There is always an advantage somewhere.

The concept of "should" is as impotent as the concept of making more laws. Enforcement of these "shoulds" and "laws" is difficult when the problem reaches critical mass.

Even "the right thing to do" seems to be open to interpretation. :confused:

When I play out the logic cone, I see a complicated balancing of profit / patriotism.

sal

[Karen]

Sal,

Thanks so much for your comments. I have a great respect for you and your company.
I think you are doing an amazing job of balancing the need for lower costs and maintaining quality and keeping your business prosperous in this weird global economy we are all apart of now.

The under-priced yuan and the insanely low labor costs are being used as a political strategy, in my opinion. It is a unique time in history. You can actually buy high quality products at a fraction of it's actual value. If a person knows how to use this information, it could be very profitable.
I think Spyderco has a good balance.

You simply made the best knives at the best prices possible. :)

[Sequimite]

Karen,

Many Chinese knives have 440C stamped on their blades but so far that claim has always proved to be a lie. I've bought Spyderco Byrds on closeout for as little as $12 and I would bet I have better steel and a more durable knife.

It may turn out to be a good knife or it may turn out to look good and work bad. Let us know how it holds up to usage and retains its sharpness.

[jabba359]

When you look at the quality of Byrd and other Chinese made knives, you realize that if the right company fakes these knives, and can import and sell them for 1/5 or 1/10 the cost, American companies are in real trouble. This fake is as good as a Byrd in my opinion. Almost as good as the real Delica made in Japan.
Since Chinese knife makers are making quality knives for almost all American and European companies now, why not just copy good high end knives like Spyderco and make 1000 times more profit, and raise prices when US companies fail. Since they then control the market. Isn't that what Japan did in the 1960's - 1980's with TV, Radio and Electronics?
And since US companies have fired all their employees to have products made in China, who will buy these products now that US workers have no jobs?
I suddenly feel very sick inside. Our future economy is in real trouble.
Ford, GM, etc kept factories open in hard times because US auto workers bought cars they made. Toyota, Mazda, Nissan's are made in Japan, why are we buying Japanese cars? Because they are of high quality and WERE cheaper than US cars. Now they cost more.
This really scares me. Seriously. I feel sick inside about this recession we are in. How can we ever get out of it?

You make some good points Karen. It is a scary market right now and quite the balancing act between taking advantage of China's low prices to stay in business while also maintaining jobs over here.

I wouldn't worry too much about Toyota, though Mazda and Nissan aren't very USA-centric. Toyota has 10 plants here in the US now, so they create a lot of American jobs. While Mazda is partially owned by Ford, Mazdas are mostly built in Japan. Mazda's also building a plant in Mexico (where labor to build a car is 1/10th the cost of the USA* (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/06/official-mazda2-mazda3-mexico-flat-rock-autoalliance-uaw/1)) and may be shuttering their USA-built operations. Nissan doesn't really have a significant manufacturing presence in the USA, but part of their high prices may be due to the high price of the Yen.

At least Spyderco is continuing to slowly expand their plant and seem to be running near or at capacity. Not too many US based companies are that busy. The advantage to US-built knives (or contracted to US companies like Spyderco) is that we know that the product is going to be high quality and that Spyderco will stand behind their knives. There is little incentive for Chinese knockoffs to replicate the quality, as they don't have to provide warranty and repair service for what breaks, so they have little motivation to make something durable. For those of us that want quality, we know where to spend our money. China may make low-priced copies that replicate the look, and possibly the initial function, but the inferior materials used to cut costs down to the $5-10 range end up making for a shoddy product in the long -and often short- run.

[Karen]

Sequimite, Jubba359, my friends, you prove my point. We tend to see Chinese goods as inferior or trash. Like our parents or Grandparents saw Japanese goods in the 1950's or 1960's. GM plants in China now make quality cars. China has space craft. Look around, your TV, Laptop, fan, plastic shelving, dress, skirts, almost everything is made in China. And they are well made.

I inherited my Dad's watch and gun collection. Selling these paid for two years of med school. Thanks Dad. I have junk watches made in Swiss with fake US watch names on them from the early 1900's. But the Swiss overtook the US watch industry with cheaper labor and parts costs. Now Waltham and many others no longer exist.(the quartz crystal helped kill the watch industry also). Vacheron Constatin , Patek phillippe are doing well. Even Rolex now can charge insane prices for mass produced watches. With no US competition.

The farm age is over, industrial revolution is gone, plastics, computer production is gone now to China. Even software is being made elsewhere.

What is left? Junk TV shows and movies? Good medical care? We need a new invention. Maybe cold fusion? :) otherwise we are in real trouble as a Nation.

My fear is that US pay and living quality will go down drastically as quality products at insanely cheap costs flood our economy long term. As Sal said, this is not an equal playing field. I believe the Governments of Foreign Nations (and our own Politicians) are doing this. At the cost of our children's future. I am not trying to be political or negative. And I believe we can survive and even prosper. But the road ahead will be an interesting ride.

Peace & love to all :)

[jackknifeh]

Sequimite, Jubba359, my friends, you prove my point. We tend to see Chinese goods as inferior or trash. Like our parents or Grandparents saw Japanese goods in the 1950's or 1960's. GM plants in China now make quality cars. China has space craft. Look around, your TV, Laptop, fan, plastic shelving, dress, skirts, almost everything is made in China. And they are well made.

I inherited my Dad's watch and gun collection. Selling these paid for two years of med school. Thanks Dad. I have junk watches made in Swiss with fake US watch names on them from the early 1900's. But the Swiss overtook the US watch industry with cheaper labor and parts costs. Now Waltham and many others no longer exist.(the quartz crystal helped kill the watch industry also). Vacheron Constatin , Patek phillippe are doing well. Even Rolex now can charge insane prices for mass produced watches. With no US competition.

The farm age is over, industrial revolution is gone, plastics, computer production is gone now to China. Even software is being made elsewhere.

What is left? Junk TV shows and movies? Good medical care? We need a new invention. Maybe cold fusion? :) otherwise we are in real trouble as a Nation.

My fear is that US pay and living quality will go down drastically as quality products at insanely cheap costs flood our economy long term. As Sal said, this is not an equal playing field. I believe the Governments of Foreign Nations (and our own Politicians) are doing this. At the cost of our children's future. I am not trying to be political or negative. And I believe we can survive and even prosper. But the road ahead will be an interesting ride.

Peace & love to all :)

I know virtually nothing about economics. Why are products made in China (for example) less expensive than the same thing made in the USA? It would have to be money saved in the manufacturing process, wouldn't it? If the worker is making so much less than a worker in the US how do they live? How many cars do they have? How many TVs, etc. If they make a tiny bit of money and live poorly, wouldn't that mean the same thing would happen to the USA worker? If salaries were low enough to sell products at China prices then the workers would need to lower their standard of living. On the other hand how many times has a company filed bankrupcy while the board members were still making millions per year?

Like I said I don't know much about it but I think greed may be the ultimate enemy and it has creeped into every aspect of business. Especially us in the US because most of us are spoiled. Poor people in the US live better than a lot of people in some parts of the world. That's another story though.

Jack

[TheNeedyCat]

it looks like a good beater but nowhere near the real delica

[Sequimite]

Well, I do know a lot about economics and have done business with manufacturers in China.

China faces a number of problems. There is almost no such thing as contract rights there. They don't just steal from abroad, they steal from each other and that makes it difficult to sell quality. Agreements can be broken or renegotiated at any time. Quality varies widely from batch to batch as the factory buys the cheapest materials and subcontractors with little regard for QC. This is not dishonesty, it is part of their culture.

China is slowly changing and even a small company like Spyderco can find reliable business partners with a lot of time and patience. But this is still more the exception than the rule. Pay is cheap and costs for things like pollution and product liability are passed on to the general population and customers rather than being borne by the manufacturer. The Yuan is kept artificially low because the rising economy is keeping unrest down. As the Yuan is forced up, the standard of living increases, pollution and toxic waste takes its toll, there will come a reckoning that the Chinese government may not survive.

[sal]

Hi Jack,

Sequimite mentioned a few things, but the main thing is the value of the Chinese dollar, called the Yuan.

Right now, one US dollar will buy 5 Yuan. The Chinese worker still gets their regular pay, then have cell phones, night clubs and autos. But the value of the Yuan is kept low artificially. As a result, we can buy labor at 1/5th the cost of labor in the US.

When we first began working with the Japanese, the Yen was 1/3rd the US dollar. A real advantage for a while, but the Japanese Yen grew in strength quickly and is now worth even more than the dollar.

5 to one is very difficult to compete against, especially since the American consumer will almost always spring for the lower cost. An American company can make something in China, make much higher margins and still offer a much less expensive retail price.

I first saw the real dilemma about 10 years ago when the last washing machine mfr in America finally threw in the towel and outsourced to China.

Copies are a real problem. Copies from Taiwan at the turn of the century really hurt Spyderco. We could find copies of our Delica for $5.00 in the local superrmarket. It was difficult to say afloat.

But if the Chinese Yuan was 1/2 or even 2/3rds the dollar, we could compete, but getting 5 times as much for your money is challenging to fight.

sal

[jackknifeh]

Hi Jack,

Sequimite mentioned a few things, but the main thing is the value of the Chinese dollar, called the Yuan.

Right now, one US dollar will buy 5 Yuan. The Chinese worker still gets their regular pay, then have cell phones, night clubs and autos. But the value of the Yuan is kept low artificially. As a result, we can buy labor at 1/5th the cost of labor in the US.

When we first began working with the Japanese, the Yen was 1/3rd the US dollar. A real advantage for a while, but the Japanese Yen grew in strength quickly and is now worth even more than the dollar.

5 to one is very difficult to compete against, especially since the American consumer will almost always spring for the lower cost. An American company can make something in China, make much higher margins and still offer a much less expensive retail price.

I first saw the real dilemma about 10 years ago when the last washing machine mfr in America finally threw in the towel and outsourced to China.

Copies are a real problem. Copies from Taiwan at the turn of the century really hurt Spyderco. We could find copies of our Delica for $5.00 in the local superrmarket. It was difficult to say afloat.

But if the Chinese Yuan was 1/2 or even 2/3rds the dollar, we could compete, but getting 5 times as much for your money is challenging to fight.

sal

I got it. I don't really understand why things are like that but that's ok with me. I remember when I was 2 - 5 years old we lived in Japan. My father was in the Marines. He and my mother used to talk about being able to buy 3 of something for a dollar that in the US a dollar would only get you one of the same thing. Thanks for explaining it. Even though they are different companies I guess it's the same situation.

Jack

[jabba359]

Sequimite, Jubba359, my friends, you prove my point. We tend to see Chinese goods as inferior or trash. Like our parents or Grandparents saw Japanese goods in the 1950's or 1960's. GM plants in China now make quality cars. China has space craft. Look around, your TV, Laptop, fan, plastic shelving, dress, skirts, almost everything is made in China. And they are well made.

I in no way suggested that Chinese goods are junk. If you do a search for the the keyword "China" for my username, you will see that I often praise the China made Spydercos as being an exceptional value, with high quality at low price points.

My particular example was addressing cheap ($5-10) knockoffs, which replicate the physical appearance of legitimate Spydercos, but are unable to provide quality materials at that price point. Regardless of country of origin, a $5-10 knife is not going to contain quality materials.

What tends to separate the junk from the quality, and the point of my original post, was who backs the product. iPhones, iPods, iPads and Macbooks are made in China, but are generally regarded as the gold standard for quality consumer electronics. They are made for, and warrantied by, Apple. Chevy builds cars, Spyderco produces knives, and Craftsmen builds tools in China. All quality, but all backed by real corporations. The knockoffs are made by no-name companies (legitimate companies legally can't make knockoffs, so they don't), so these no-names have no brand integrity to protect. They sell as much junk as quickly as they can, using the lowest possible quality parts to maximize immediate profits, as there is no such thing as a long term customer to retain.

That was the point of my response. China can offer high quality when given incentive to do so, but the knockoff industry has no such incentive, resulting in the junk knives that end up in the $5-10 bin.

[BAL]

it looks like a good beater but nowhere near the real delica
Yea its a good beater, I'd like to beat it against the side of the head of whoever made it. I am a gentle person, but one of my pet peeves is the knock-off, especially with something that I really care about such as a Spyderco Knife. This one was done very well. The problem is that most people aren't as educated about Spyderco as most that visit this forum and they don't know the difference. Sal is right on pint, it's hard to compete with that, since most are looking for a bargain. However, there is no bargain or replacement for Spyderco.

[SolidState]

We rarely look at tax history in this country, or history for that matter, and the fact that our federal government was funded by tariffs from the time of Washington until Lincoln. If people want to buy things from abroad it should cost them a similar price to something made here, not drastically less for artificial reasons. There is very little flow in the other direction for these relationships.

Countries who have retained their manufacturing base, Germany for example, have had way less problems with the recession because they do not allow their citizenry to buy goods at artificially deflated prices. Their government re-inflates those prices and reinvests the revenue into the German economy. They learned that model from us, before we forgot it.

That is one hell of a fake, and one hell of a reminder of the different ideologies of communism and capitalism. It is sad that that item can be made, shipped into the USA and sold for less than a tenth of the price of its fully legitimate competitor.

[sal]

Hi SolidState,

I think the difference is more in money valuation tham ideologies. China is very capitalistic in their business practices, even their highways are privately owned.

This is an interesting discussion. I thought to expand on it and add a topic in OT. Would like you to share your thoughts.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51766

sal

[Chopping Broccoli]

I think the difference is more in money valuation tham ideologies. China is very capitalistic in their business practices, even their highways are privately owned.


this

[Drkknight614]

I in no way suggested that Chinese goods are junk. If you do a search for the the keyword "China" for my username, you will see that I often praise the China made Spydercos as being an exceptional value, with high quality at low price points.

My particular example was addressing cheap ($5-10) knockoffs, which replicate the physical appearance of legitimate Spydercos, but are unable to provide quality materials at that price point. Regardless of country of origin, a $5-10 knife is not going to contain quality materials.

What tends to separate the junk from the quality, and the point of my original post, was who backs the product. iPhones, iPods, iPads and Macbooks are made in China, but are generally regarded as the gold standard for quality consumer electronics. They are made for, and warrantied by, Apple. Chevy builds cars, Spyderco produces knives, and Craftsmen builds tools in China. All quality, but all backed by real corporations. The knockoffs are made by no-name companies (legitimate companies legally can't make knockoffs, so they don't), so these no-names have no brand integrity to protect. They sell as much junk as quickly as they can, using the lowest possible quality parts to maximize immediate profits, as there is no such thing as a long term customer to retain.

That was the point of my response. China can offer high quality when given incentive to do so, but the knockoff industry has no such incentive, resulting in the junk knives that end up in the $5-10 bin.

+1 to this. Lots of stuff is made in china, but to be honest lots of the stuff is still crap. But your getting what you pay for most of the time. You go out buy said product from a not so popular bargin company that sells stuff made from china....it probably wont last very long. But people buy the stuff because its cheap, they need it right now, and dont really look to far ahead. Or they just dont care if they have to buy another because it was so cheap in the first place. Some people buy the more expensive things from top companys expecting it to last them 10 years or more. Others buy the cheapo stuff and end up buying the same thing or an equivelent five times or more in the same amount of time. Those are the people driving cheap chinese products, outsourcing and places like Walmart, target etc. Hell, I feel some of these people are partially to blame for a failing economy. People are willing to buy cheap products so companies outsoure, and the US puts out less and less exports. Even some of our major exports (like food) are utter garbage because silly Americans continue to buy and support it. Then places we are trying to export it to dont even want it because they know its crap. The economy is tanking, yea its tanking around the world but our once strong dollar is at the lowest of lows. Now, some people cant even afford the cheapo stuff from walmart.

There are of course exception to this such as companies like Apple and Spyderco. Good products can come out of china and other countries by US companies if quality control is a heavy priority. Also if Im not mistaken all spydercos products are inspected here in the US prior to going out to retailers. That will result in a better product.

As far as this delica knock off, indeed it looks good, but you wont know somethings true value till you use it and put time into it. The steel is probably not what was said and even if it is, heat treating and all that is probably piss poor. Will it cut, sure, but we all know the finer positive details that come with quality steels. But will this knife last, how long will it take for the pins to fail in the handle? How long will it take for something to rust? How long does the edge last and how sharp can you get it? How long will the lock last? One day when something fails and you end up in the ER, what company are you going to call and complain to?

Ugh, I can rant all day about how americans are so willing to spend their money on crappy stuff in order to "save money", and how its destroying intergrity and generating greed in buisnesses. But I'll refrain.

When you pay good money for something, usually you are getting more then just the product. This is why I have no problem spending more money for something. I want quality products, by passionate, honest companies, that I only have to buy once and not be afraid to use, that will last me so long I forgot how much I even spent, and when it breaks I can call the company with no hassel. This imo is somewhat of a dying breed these days, but a reason why I spend my money on spydercos.

[The Deacon]

Hi SolidState,

I think the difference is more in money valuation tham ideologies. China is very capitalistic in their business practices, even their highways are privately owned.

This is an interesting discussion. I thought to expand on it and add a topic in OT. Would like you to share your thoughts.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51766

salTrue Sal, but there's also the cultural factor. From what I understand, intellectual property is a Western concept and as alien to Oriental culture as eating dogs and cats is to us, and it will always cost less to produce something if someone else has done the R&D for you.

[SolidState]

Hi SolidState,

I think the difference is more in money valuation than ideologies. China is very capitalistic in their business practices, even their highways are privately owned.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51766

sal

You are so correct Sal. The real difference between our two countries isn't in the goodness of the people, nor the drive of our peoples. It is simply in who sets the value of the currency. China has a cohesive national plan, and we simply do not. Not having a plan is becoming very expensive.