Bush vs Kerry ..... The Future

[Stevie Ray]

A friend sent the comments below late yesterday. Whether you agree with them or not, they are somewhat thought provoking ... Manweller apparently writes a regular political column and this is his latest. What say yee?
===========================================
Written by Mathew Manweller
Central Washington University political science professor..


"Election determines fate of nation"
"In that this will be my last column before the presidential election,
there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee. The topic is too
serious, and the stakes are too high.

This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that
will truly matter. Because America is at a once-in-a-generation
crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance. Down one path
lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence. Down the other lies a
nation that is aware of its past and accepts the daunting obligation its
future demands.

If we choose poorly, the consequences will echo through the next 50 years
of history. If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current
occupant of the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will
be two-fold.

First, we will reject the notion that America can do big things.
Once a nation that tamed a frontier, stood down the Nazis and stood upon
the moon, we will announce to the world that bringing democracy to the
Middle East is too big of a task for us. But more significantly, we will
signal to future presidents that as voters, we are unwilling to tackle
difficult challenges, preferring caution to boldness, embracing the
mediocrity that has characterized other civilizations. The defeat of
President Bush will send a chilling message to future presidents who may
need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions. America has always been
a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the costs or
appeal. If we turn away from that legacy, we turn away from who we are.

Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the
lesson of Somalia was well learned. In Somalia we showed terrorists that you
don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can defeat them
in the newsroom. They learned that a wounded America can become a defeated America.

Twenty-four-hour news stations and daily tracing polls will do the heavy
lifting, turning a cut into a fatal blow. Except that Iraq is Somalia
times 10. The election of John Kerry will serve notice to every terrorist
in every cave that the soft underbelly of American power is the timidity
of American voters. Terrorists will know that a steady stream of grizzly
photos for CNN is all you need to break the will of the American people.
Our own self-doubt will take it from there. Bin Laden will recognize that
he can topple any American administration without setting foot on the
homeland.

It is said that America's W.W.II generation is its 'greatest generation'.
But my greatest fear is that it will become known as America's 'last
generation.' Born in the bleakness of the Great Depression and hardened in
the fire of WW II, they may be the last American generation that
understands the meaning of duty, honor and sacrifice. It is difficult to
admit, but I know these terms are spoken with only hollow detachment by
many (but not all) in my generation. Too many citizens today mistake
'living in America' as 'being an American.' But America has always been
more of an idea than a place. When you sign on, you do more than buy real
estate. You accept a set of values and responsibilities.

This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must grasp
the obligation that comes with being an American, or fade into the
oblivion they may deserve.

I believe that 100 years from now historians will look back at the
election of 2004 and see it as the decisive election of our century. Depending on the outcome, they will describe it as the moment America joined the ranks
of ordinary nations; or they will describe it as the moment the prodigal
sons and daughters of the greatest generation accepted their burden as
caretakers of the City on the Hill."

Mathew Manwelle
Central Washington University Political Science Professor

[spyderknut]

I agree. Despite many imperfections, Bush is the clear choice. Kerry talks tough but it is poll-driven rhetoric with no voting record to back it up. He is the ultimate political opportunist. Anyone's service in battle must be honored, however Kerry's short term in service and his post-service conduct evoke more character questions than confidence.

[Ray.Hood]

Hey, he's my Commander In Chief!
I've become a Republican in my old age, ha-ha.
I'm sorry, but I just don't respect the things that Kerry has testified to about Vietnam. My Dad was 82nd Airborne in Vietnam. As long as Kerry does NOT
become the new Jane Fonda he might be alright.I don't like the idea of playing world policeman any better than most, but hey it's my job.

[J Smith]

IMO the parties have done a flip flop.The democrats of old would be rebublicains today.
Bush must be reelected or all of us will have a very hard time to go through.

[Codeman]

Who would stop in the middle of a fight we're winning, get rid of the big dog, and put a chameleon in? I'm still grateful President Bush was there on 9/11. I think Kerry would make a great condiment salesman.

Even if I didn't agree with President Bush on most things, which I do, I'd still prefer him for his integrity. That is a must have in our leader.

[Sword and Shield]

I wouldn't buy a bottle of ketchup from Kerry. ;)

I look at it that you simply have to apply a test my grandfather created when he did invesstigations for Masonic candidates; would you buy a used car from this man? Bush? Sure. Kerry? There's something wrong about him, I'm not sure what. My wallet stays put.

[Codeman]

I wouldn't buy a bottle of ketchup from Kerry. ;)

I look at it that you simply have to apply a test my grandfather created when he did invesstigations for Masonic candidates; would you buy a used car from this man? Bush? Sure. Kerry? There's something wrong about him, I'm not sure what. My wallet stays put.

Good point! Either way, there's no way would I eat it!

Man, I haven't heard the used car test in a long time. Nice to be reminded!

[java]

Thanks for the excellent article Stevie Ray,

As a Vietnam Vet, my distaste for Kerry is palpable. Kerry was an officer in the US Naval Reserve when consorted with the North Vietnamese in violation of US Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 45, Section 953. In my eyes the man is a traitor and after wrapping himself in the hero's flag at the convention, he opened the door for the Viet POWS (Stolen Honor) the Swift Boat Vets, and anyone else with a sense of history and fairness who wanted to set the record straight. He used and was used by the media in the 1970s and is partly responsible for the media view of the Viet Vet as a troubled warrior forced to commit atrocities during an unpopular war who came back unable to adjust to life in the US - was drunk or drugged up, homeless, prone to domestic violence and could trip out and wage war on the populace at large at the drop of a flashback.

He has nothing to show for leadership or lawmaking in 20 plus years as a Senator unless you count the eight bills - 5 of which were ceremonial - with his name on them. He claims over 55 bills but you can check factcheck.org for a more accurate number. In his entire congressional career of 20 plus years John Kerry has had eight, count them again EIGHT, bills he authored pass muster and be signed into law. Of these eight, five are ceremonial - renaming a federal building, designating Vietnam Veterans Memorial 10th Anniversary Day, National POW/MIA Recognition Day and World Population Awareness Week in two separate years. His most laudable effort came in 1999 when President Clinton signed his bill providing grants to support small businesses owned by women. The remaining two grew from his work on the Senate panel on oceans and fisheries where he is the ranking minority representative - a 1994 law to protect marine mammals from being taken during commercial fishing and a 1991 measure for the National Sea Grant College Program Act, which finances marine research.

Kerry’s campaign page however lists at least 57 measures he claims to have passed or “lead” the fight for. This is political puffery and, IMO, self-aggrandizement in an election battle with a political campaign organization “that will stop at nothing” to get elected. His “leadership” is not in evidence here. He may have cosponsored many resolutions in a process that allows representatives to show their initial support by attaching their names to proposed legislation but this to me is more party politics than leadership. I will give Kerry the fact that he has proven to have good investigative powers to showcase areas that need addressing, as in akjon’s example of investigating terrorism-funding banking scandals, but to me leadership shows a more productive role – both authoring forward looking legislation and working to foster consensus for legislation that you firmly believe will benefit your constituents and your country. John Kerry has shown me neither and I do not hear a balanced chorus claiming he has a reputation uniting his colleagues for the common good of the people.

His absences, which the Bush campaign conservatively claims at 76%, from the Senate Intelligence Committee's public hearings during the time he served there, are particularly troubling to me. IMO, I see this as small part of what I perceive as his failure to shoulder the responsibility his constituents and we the American people have entrusted to him. I have discussed his more than 440 absent or Not Voting records in this congress before on BFC and stand by my claim that the people of Massachusetts are being denied. I will go further by saying that he is letting all of us down, as these are many of the resolutions that will become our laws. I can accept higher than normal absences in a campaign year but the current congress goes back to January 2003. And for those of you who claim that he is strong on defense because he has a record of voting for Military Appropriations Bills, the voting role called for HR 4613, The Defense Appropriation Act of 2005, records another absent/not voting beside Mr. Kerry’s name. As did the current vote to restructure the intelligence system - a campaign iinitiative that he said was so important that he would stop in the middle of his campaign to be present and vote. The only non-Votes were the twin Johns.

My decision is probably obvious here but rather than perpetuate the anybody-but-Bush baiting and partisan posturing on both sides, I recommend each of us review the issues from other than campaign headquarters and analyze for ourselves what the accomplishments and records of these candidates are. Vietnam service should have been a non-player and is a wash as it is. What each has done since in the public good; what mistakes each has made and overcome; who best has provided leadership; and who has formulated the better vision to deal with the issues that face us should be logically analyzed to make an informed voting opinion.

A good place to start that seems relatively unbiased IMO is http://factcheck.org You can find congressional voting records for the current congress, links to most of the resolutions, make up of congressional committees, and info on your rep at http://www.congressmerge.com

There are plenty of good non-partisan links out there and if you have a few more, I would love to see them. Please give the issues your best analysis, continue with the intelligent discussion, and vote your conscious (often…:D Sorry had to throw that in due to Texas’ history of deceased voter turnout under Johnson)



I wouldn't buy a bottle of ketchup from Kerry. ;)

I look at it that you simply have to apply a test my grandfather created when he did invesstigations for Masonic candidates; would you buy a used car from this man? Bush? Sure. Kerry? There's something wrong about him, I'm not sure what. My wallet stays put.
Resplendent One,

And nothing with the name Heinz either but, as I am sure you are running low on condiments, perhaps it's time for a change to (insert robust fanfare here) W brand the Ketchup of konservatives nation-wide. :D

[spyderknut]

Thanks for serving Java.
And thanks for serving that can of whoop-ass.
Wow. Can't wait to see if someone with an opposing point of view has the :confused: :confused: to debate.

[Stevie Ray]

After the "W" ketchup bottle, I figured you guys needed to see these comparative pics :D First ... the candidates as "sportsmen" and then, see them in some of their favorite outdoor pursuits ....

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/Bush-Kerry-sportsmen.JPG' width=538 height=300 >

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/Bush-Kerry-outdoorsmen.JPG' width=538 height=355 >

[Codeman]

I'll second the thanks for serving, Java.

Great pic comparisions, Stevie Ray.

Yeah, I've quit buying Heinz. Even without Kerry, I cannot stand his wife and the thought of my money gong to them is sickening. I'm gonna miss the ketchup, though...

[java]

After the "W" ketchup bottle, I figured you guys needed to see these comparative pics :D First ... the candidates as "sportsmen" and then, see them in some of their favorite outdoor pursuits ....

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/Bush-Kerry-outdoorsmen.JPG' width=538 height=355 >
JFKII: The Man Who Would be Sequel certainly dresses the part. The daisy pull on his LL Bean togs is probably a yearning to go back to the simple days of the late '60s - Suppose they gave a war and nobody came; War is not healthy for children and other living things; Make love not war; and How do you ask trhe last man to die for a mistake. Perhaps the great pretender can answer the last one since he asked it 30 years ago of Congress and he is the one calling our actions in Iraq the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time, a grand diversion, as well as a mistake.

I judge a man's character by his actions more than his words and intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and words are less than 1/1000 of the picture of a man. Mr Kerry, in my book, is sadly lacking, and more than GWB cannot admitt to the mistakes in HIS past. He has a 20 plus year record of public service in which he has shown little character and leadership ability. I'll grant he can be an excellent investigative representative but given his record of absences in the Congress and on critical committees coupled with his sparse record of promulgating effective legislation measures, the public and especially the people of Massachusetts have not really been served.

Kerry is honored in by the current Vietnamese government as a hero who helped communists win the war against the US in the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City. Interesting that should the man be elected, he would be the first President who is a war hero to both sides of the same US war. Rather fitting of a man who takes every side of an issue and then claims he never changed his approach. That what he meant was yada, yada, yada.

JFK2 has nuanced a large part of the public into believing into GWB and his administration are singlehandedly responsible for everything that has gone wrong in these last four years. GWB inherited a declining economy. The 9-11 attacks were the result of progression of years of attacks beginning in the late 1970s in Lebanon. The month following 9-11 saw approximately 1 million jobs, mostly in the airline industry, vanish and we are still recovering from the effects. There's a lot more and enough blame to go around that both parties need to seriously evaluate their positions and come up with a way to effective work together for the common good if we are to survive and move forward. With his blame game, Kerry has led a more negative campaign, beginning with the midnight rebuttal to the GOP convention when traditionally, rivals give the opposing party a break in the campaign, as did Bush for the Domocratic party. Any inquiry into Kerry's past activities has met with counter claims or indignation - i.e. the CBS "memos" on GWB's guard service and the "Bring it on" response from Kerry to the GOP when no one, in fact, impuned his war record except the people like John O'Neil (Swift Boat Veterans) who have been trying to be heard these past thirty years. Kerry has insulted our allies in Iraq calling them a coalition of the coerced and the bribed when in fact the bribed are the very "allies" he would seek to bring on board in his real coalition. France and Russia were so deep in bed with Saddam I'll be suprised if the next generation of French and Russians don't come out looking like a tragic morph of Chirac, Saddam, and Putin. The UN Oil for Food scandal is new to many who have not been reading up on the war they are so against Ken Pollack’s The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq not only spoke quite eloquently regarding the violations even then but revealed how Vice President Al Gore, another now anti-Iraq war candidate was an ardent supporter of invading Iraq in support of our national interests with or without UN support. The book was published in 2002 BTW. It’s funny how so many merely parrot the party line without regards to their own convictions.

I have read Kerry’s loose biography about his Vietnam experience. Tour of Duty was a jaundiced view at best and, as has been reported with the seared memory of his Cambodian Christmas claim, is less than accurate. Knowing this I read ]Unfit for Command[/I] to better understand the Swift Boat Veterans feelings and then Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History to help me understand some of my own feelings about JFK2 and my own experiences. It’s a little late for many of you to take this road of understanding but in spite of the DNC’s cry against Stolen Honor, I would urge people, no matter their political stripe to view the documentary. It may enlighten some about Kerry but more importantly, it is a vehicle that allows these Vietnam POWs a chance to tell their story. Kerry is not even mentioned until some 20 minutes in. What I found distressing about this documentary was the response to it. The DNC and the anti-Sinclair protestors were far off base about the content. One protestor who claims to have watched the video said it was nothing but a bunch of old white people – not POWs – whose only goal was to ruin Kerry. How sad when we simply dismiss what these men went through and fail to listen and learn the lessons of the past – there was another side to Kerry’s betrayal of his “band of brothers” and it lies imbedded within these old white men. One of these old white men Robinson Risner was my commander and fellow church mate. He remains an inspiration for me to this day. You can view Stolen Honor in its entirety by going to http://www.stolenhonor.com

Whatever you do, be sure to vote. Vote with knowledge. Vote your true conscience. Just vote!

Oh, and just remember whatever happens is George Bush's fault but John Kerry has a plan. :D

I'm Java and I approved this rambling opinion. Thanks fer listening.

[Sword and Shield]

W brand ketchup isn't made that far from my house, IIRC. ;)

Ya know, Kerry keeps saying he has a plan, but he never details what the heck it is. If he were taking an exam, and he kept saying, "I know the answer" but didn't give it, would he pass? I think not.

[spyderknut]

Just got tix to Bush rally tomorrow in town. Guess I'll have to remember to leave by :spyder: in the car! :)

[jbake]

Great posts java.

Stevie Ray, those pics kill me. Here are some of my favorite ones.
http://www.cba.ua.edu/~jbaker/showandtell/conte.jpg
http://www.cba.ua.edu/~jbaker/showandtell/Kerry_edwards_kiss.jpg
http://www.cba.ua.edu/~jbaker/showandtell/r4086761383-1.jpg
http://www.cba.ua.edu/~jbaker/showandtell/r1549424839.jpg

[java]

jbake,

Thanks but I'm sure what I say is what many others here feel. I got John Kerry confused with Robert Kerrey once and looked them both up. Bob Kerrey is the real Vietnam hero along with John McClain. There are probably a few others still in Congress. I'd vote for John McClain any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Pretty much the same if Bob Kerrey ran. I'm an Independent with conservative views but I value what the other side has to say if it is to the good of society. I still believe that honesty, loyalty, integrity, a good work ethic, and a well functioning moral compass go the distance over flash, show, and promises.

Now for your pictures...I have to add the version of the Contempt one that I received in the mail some time ago. I'll probably get banned or shot for this but it resounded well with the military friends I forwarded it to:

[Stevie Ray]

Well .... I wasn't going to poste this pic, but now ..., I feel it is my duty .. :D Here are your choices for first lady!

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/Bush-Kerry-betterhalves.JPG' width=404 height=319 >

[SURLY]

Well .... I wasn't going to poste this pic, but now ..., I feel it is my duty .. :D Here are your choices for first lady!

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/Bush-Kerry-betterhalves.JPG' width=404 height=319 >



EXACTLY !!!!! NO MORE HEINTZ FOR ME ! BUSH IS THE MAN...

[dantecubit]

Granted I live in Canada, but I lived most of my life in Sacramento (California). Are you people for real? Just because Bush got the country into a snafu of a war doesn't mean he has any more of a "plan" than Kerry. Kerry wants more troops and international cooperartion. And why are we still there? I thought it was "mission accomplished." Even if you believe that anyone who ever even had one thought that might lean towards supporting a terrorist should be killed, Bush's Iraq war doesn't make you safer at night. In fact, as Kerry said, less troops for the "war on terror" makes you less safe, if anything.

And let's lay off Kerry's service record. If the man says he saw atrocities in Vietnam, then that's what he saw. Going home and working to end the war was the courageous thing to do. This is America, after all, where we can believe what we want. AT least Kerry has a service record.

[Sword and Shield]

AT least Kerry has a service record.

Does he? Really? Are you sure about that?

A few points. When a soldier is discharged with anything less than an honorable discharge, their medals are revoked, along with any type of commendation. Kerry asked for his medals to be replaced, in 1972. Conveniently, he got them- in 1985, during his first term in the Senate. The military doesn't work nearly that slowly. I know several WWII vets who lost their medals through the subsequent 60 years, and their widows asked for replacement. Each one was investigated and delivered inside a month. Why did Kerry's take 13 years?

Odd? Read on.

In 1970, Kerry met with North Vietnamese operatives in France. We call that treason, where I come from.

Still not odd enough? Read on.

Bush signed Form 180, which allows access to his military records. Kerry has not. Why would a reservist with a mediocre record sign the form, but a so-called "war hero" not do so? Before you mention his website, the military has already admitted they are witholding nearly 100 pages of Kerry's records. WHY?

[spyderknut]

Granted I live in Canada, but I lived most of my life in Sacramento (California).And why are we still there?

"We?" :eek:

[java]

Granted I live in Canada, but I lived most of my life in Sacramento (California). Are you people for real? Just because Bush got the country into a snafu of a war doesn't mean he has any more of a "plan" than Kerry. Kerry wants more troops and international cooperartion. And why are we still there? I thought it was "mission accomplished." Even if you believe that anyone who ever even had one thought that might lean towards supporting a terrorist should be killed, Bush's Iraq war doesn't make you safer at night. In fact, as Kerry said, less troops for the "war on terror" makes you less safe, if anything.

And let's lay off Kerry's service record. If the man says he saw atrocities in Vietnam, then that's what he saw. Going home and working to end the war was the courageous thing to do. This is America, after all, where we can believe what we want. AT least Kerry has a service record.

dantecubit,

As stated, I am an Independent voter. I absolutely do not agree with everything Bush has done, however I am not swayed by the flood-storm of anti-Bush and anybody but Bush, rhetoric prevalent in our biased media. Kerry did not just say he saw atrocities, he said he participated in them. Kerry was a willing dupe of the press and the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, many of whom were neither veterans or served there as they claimed. Kerry even rose to the defense of its co-founder Al Hubbard when his records proved him a fraud. A man is known not just by his actions: but the company he keeps.

As to working to end the war how certain are you that the war was not close to being won until the protestors here gave hope to the communist North Vietnam. Try checking some of the recovered documents that detail the Vietnamese communists propaganda goals in regards to our protest organizations. Knowing full well we could not be defeated on the battlefield after the Tet Offensive, Kerry, his protester allies, and the media gave the communist Vietnamese government hopes that they could achieve their ends by breaking or will to support the war at home. It was not until Linebacker II drove them back to the peace talks in Dec 1972 that progress was made toward ending the war and securing the release of our POWs. John Kerry tried an end run in clear violation of violation of US Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 45, Section 953. This was done without the support or knowledge of the US government while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve. This is treasonous clear and simple no matter the intent. I don't question his active Vietnam service but his service record covers the time period he met with the Peoples Revolutionary government and the government of the Peoples Democratic Government of Vietnam (North Vietnam) and as such is germane to the man's ability to make judgments and lead this country. Ergo his incomplete service record is not only open to question but in view of how JFK2 has wrapped himself in his hero's flag in several campaigns, but we should demand an accounting and an sincere apology to all Viet Vets for the false accusations he levied. Furthermore the POWs whose lives he directly impacted deserve to be heard and he owes them far more than can be discussed here. The nation owes them a debt of gratitude for staying the course over those years in prison and JFK2 should personally admit his error in this. He says Bush can't admit when he is wrong??? If he is truly a leader, he would have lived by his own advice and done this years ago.

I'll agree with you that working to end a war is courageous but once began, the soldiers are the ones doing most of that work. We are also the last people who want to go to war but we live up to the words of our oath - the same one that John Kerry swore to BTW - and are prepared to give our lives to that end.

Our withering support at home and lack of leadership and understanding in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations allowed the war to drag on. The war on terror is going to be a long one. If you look at John Kerry's service record, his actions after his Vietnam tour, his records as governor of Massachusetts and as a US Senator, his role as a leader or even a simple committee member is spotty and undistinguished at best. The picture of Kerry from the history of his actions shows a lack of integrity, an individual who was used by outside interests and who will say and use anything if it advances his own image and his personal goals. It also shows he lacks the commitment and the moral and political will to engage the elements of terror over the long haul.

The Mission Accomplished banner was not planned by GWB but was a heartfelt feeling from the crew of that carrier at the conclusion of immediate major operations. GWB himself has said the battle was not finished and the ferocity of insurgency was not fully expected. The DNC has latched on this and the political fallout is to be expected during a war of this nature. Kerry would have made the same blunders and we could be pointing fingers at his failures next. Just like Clinton, just like GHB, ad infinitum to include even the sainted FDR, Lincoln, and original JFK. They all made mistakes. So where does it stop? When do we come together as a nation and say enough of the blame, enough of the biased media, enough of the BS?

Bush may not be the best there is but IMO he's better than what is in the offering now. Remember well that the first casualty of war is the battle plan. In a fluid environment with unconventional forces, I'll bet the plan for the peace is just as much a casualty. The plan will morph as situations arise and are resolved. The CIC's job is to believe in his military and see that they have what they need to win. You think Kerry has a plan????? Kerry has no distinct plan in Iraq. But if he truly did, no true American patriot would hide a better "plan" while Allied lives are being lost.

I am not sure how the Canadian media leans but a lot more people should read more of each side before letting their emotions drive their choices.

[wotanson]

This all I have to say about Mr. Kerry!

[java]

Please don't think that by my previous post that all military or veterans oppose John Kerry. ;)

[J Smith]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Mrs. Bush is VERY HOT.Just think how hot she was a few years ago if she still looks that good now.

[Stevie Ray]

Jeff,

Forget Laura Bush, here's what you need .. :D

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/kerry_sm.jpg' width=180 height=250 >

[dialex]

I can't post any comment(s) regarding the "challengers" as I have close to none pertinent data about them. All I know is that Bush (much as his father) dragged America into war and the American dollar gets weaker as we speak (not that this would be necessarily a bad thing, a lower dollar means cheaper american products therefore more exports). The other candidate I heard is even worse :( But hey, we have the same problem here, in Romania; we're gonna have elections in a couple weeks and I really can't see a real candidate among those characters. :(
OTOH, I heard that A. Schwarzenegger (Schwarzenegger who?) :p has some lobbists who strive to modify the Constitution in order to allow citizens who were not born on American land to candidate for presidency. :rolleyes:

[java]

Just an old picture and article. Not WMDs or nuclear explosives. Not a clear link to terrorists or Al Qaeda in particular. Just look at the horror Saddam and his sons subjected the Iraqi people to, the threat they were to their neignbors, the mass graves, the 12 long years of failed resolutions, how our "allies" subverted the UN Oil for Food program to keep this monster in arms and power, and realistically tell me this was the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. All wars are wrong but you've got to wonder after sifting through Kerry's voting record and current rhetoric - what would Kerry really do? And then if something befell JFK2 could John Edwards handle the task?


Marines discover Iraqi 9/11 mural
NASIRIYA, Iraq (CNN) --U.S. Marines searching Iraqi military headquarters in this southern city that was the site of intensive fighting came across a mural depicting a plane crashing into a building complex resembling New York‘s twin towers, a news agency photograph showed Wednesday.

The plane‘s logo and coloring resembled that of Iraqi Airlines, said Getty Images News Service executive Brian Felber, based in New York.

The photograph, showing two rifle-toting Marines in front of the mural, was shot by staff photographer Joe Raedle, who is accompanying the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force from Task Force Tarawa.

Getty is a news photo agency that distributes about 500 photographs from around the world each day and has 10 staff members embedded with U.S. forces in the Iraq conflict.

Felber said this photo was "causing a bit of a stir."

[java]

Jeff,

Forget Laura Bush, here's what you need .. :D

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/kerry_sm.jpg' width=180 height=250 >
Now that's scary!!! But then again so was this shot of Alexandra Kerry at Cannes this year:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/kerry.asp

BTW: If you read the article Kerry in fact is not divorced but rather had his first marriage annulled. This was done so he could remain a "good Catholic". Of course this means the church considers offspring from the union as bastards. At least the republicans had the wisdom not to bring this to the political campaign. Too bad the same courtesy regarding family members as off-limiuts was not extended to Cheney's daughter by Kerry.

[Stevie Ray]

"BTW: If you read the article Kerry in fact is not divorced but rather had his first marriage annulled."

How does one get an 18 year marriage annulled? What grounds could he possibly have used? Good grief. :rolleyes: Well ... my wife and I have cast our ballots. "W" got the nod from our house. A vote for Kerry would likely be a wasted vote in Virginia .... even if ..., one's politics leaned in his direction.

[wotanson]

Greetings from the land of bedwetting Liberals :mad:

At 7am me and the wife voted, I hope this thing is over soon, and no one attempts any kind of putsch! I am dishartened to know that in certain areas of Ohio there are more people registered to vote than live there, but I've gotten used to the dirty tricks employed over the past 37 years of my life. I hope our Servicemen get the commander in chief they prefer 3-1, Thats President Bush.

Rob

[java]

How does one get an 18 year marriage annulled? What grounds could he possibly have used? Good grief. :rolleyes: Well ... my wife and I have cast our ballots. "W" got the nod from our house. A vote for Kerry would likely be a wasted vote in Virginia .... even if ..., one's politics leaned in his direction.
Kerry is a lawyer after all. ;)

It does point also where his political and moral compasses point. The Church has its roots seated in anacronisms and hypocricies throughout its history. I was faced with a similar situation and actually had a priest call my son a bastard because my wife was protestant and the church did not bless our marriage. You can't fight with city hall and unlike Martin Luther in 1517, I didn't have any theses to hang on the door. I am now a practicing Lutheran and still have my moral compass properly aligned.

[Stevie Ray]

In our age ... we have less appreciation for what people have done, lived for, fought for and died for in the name of religion and politics. 100 years or so ago, we might have been called out for a duel ... or much much worse ... (in an earlier age) based on what we've posted.

Gentlemen in politics dueled for much less ... Take Burr and Hamilton ... Did they REALLY have reasons to die for. The History channel has recently done a special on them and their duel. It became a matter of false honor and miscommunication IMHO. Read about it and then put yourself in either position ..... it does give one food for thought.

Sticks and stones ....... u know the rest. :)

GO "W"

and ps .... how do you guys do the "quote" boxes ???

[jbake]

and ps .... how do you guys do the "quote" boxes ???

Just click the QUOTE box in the bottom of each post

It will just add the correct bit of code. here's what it looks like for the above.

NOTE: It acutally uses SQUARE BRACKETS "[" "]" - not the parentheses I used below.

(QUOTE=Stevie Ray)and ps .... how do you guys do the "quote" boxes ???(/QUOTE)

-jb

[Mr Blonde]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Mrs. Bush is VERY HOT.Just think how hot she was a few years ago if she still looks that good now.


ehh...it's just you, unless the "stepford look" becomes fashionable again?! ;)

Wouter

[Spidernoir]

Four more years. Great. We're screwed.

~Jeff :(

[thombrogan]

How so, Jeff?

Now that JFK is out of the running, can we explain to Michael J. Fox the difference between not allowing and not funding research and then deport him? Maybe not back to Canada, if they don't want him back, but anywhere but here?

[java]

How so, Jeff?

Now that JFK is out of the running, can we explain to Michael J. Fox the difference between not allowing and not funding research and then deport him? Maybe not back to Canada, if they don't want him back, but anywhere but here?

Interesting point Thom.

Not many people caught that difference. Bush may object to Federal funding of embryonic stem cell research but the administration still backs adult stem cell research, funds embryonic research with remaining supplies of embryos, and does not impede private organizations from their own research. To be truthful embryonic stem cell research proceded at a better pace under Bush than Clinton due to better funding through the NIH. If folks haven't caught notice, California voters passed Proposition 71 on Tuesday. Basically California is positioning itself as the major place to be for stem cell research. Prop 71 authorized the sale of bonds to raise $3 billion and establish the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine. They will disburse $300 million per year to draw reaserchers to California and will make California one of the leading centers in the world for this research. The NIH currently spends $29 million on embryonic stem cell research and $190 million on stem cells derived from adult tissue by comparison. Several states are alarmed at the passage of this measure and are drafting plans of their own to prevent a "brain drain" of their own researchers to California.

Despite GWB's personal moral view on embryonic stem cell research, he has not taken action to prevent it. Kerry used Michael Fox to make this a political issue. It needed to be elevated but not necessarily a made political litmus test.

[java]

Four more years. Great. We're screwed.

~Jeff :(
C'mon Jeff,

We've been screwed for a long time by politicians. The election is over. Time to pull together and work for the best. I didn't hear Nader or the other guys concession speech but Kerry and Bush realize this and called for unity. Why so glum, chum?? :confused:

[J Smith]

We are going to get screwed one way or the other but Kerry was going to do it hard and long with a bigger-fatter-harder tool.

[Ray.Hood]

That is just nasty, Kerry already looks quite the Neanderthal!
Yeeesshh. Servicemen and women, rejoice, Dubya has returned.
Yee-haw.

[Stevie Ray]

Well ...., our boy JFK was recently spotted at the local 7-11 picking up a case of Hamms ... or maybe that was Pabst Blue Ribbon. Seems he spent all our tax dollars during the campaign ...... :mad:

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/746685/Kerrytshirt.jpg' width=500 height=705 >

[Spidernoir]

How so? Have you looked at the unemployment figures lately?

~Jeff

[J Smith]

Not his fault,Cliton just got a free ride from the good times of the 80s by the time he got out of office the econamy was on a big downslide.
I do agree that for it to get any better NAFTA will have to be done away with and imports from China are going to have to be cut way back.Just doing these 2 things would do wonders.

[OutofGum]

I don't understand how Bush can be the person that people want to protect the nation.

The biggest lapse in national security happened on his watch.
Instead of capturing Bin Laden he invades Iraq which had NO weapons of mass destruction, no terrorist camps, and no "nuclur" facilities. He created a place where thousands on new terrorists are being created every day. In addition it has cost thousands of American soldiers their lives. American soldiers who signed up to protect America, not liberate Iraqis.
Thousands of Iraqis are being killed every day. By American troops and by terrorists. Most of you probably see this on the news and have stopped paying attention... just look at the newspaper... oh, you'll have to flip a few pages to find it.

I could go on like this all day but plain fact is that George Bush has, in my opinion, been the worst president in the past 50 years. I live in NYC the city which has been hardest hit by terrorists and the place most in danger... don't you find it curious that I and most other New Yorkers voted for Kerry?

[java]

I don't understand how Bush can be the person that people want to protect the nation.

The biggest lapse in national security happened on his watch.
Instead of capturing Bin Laden he invades Iraq which had NO weapons of mass destruction, no terrorist camps, and no "nuclur" facilities. He created a place where thousands on new terrorists are being created every day. In addition it has cost thousands of American soldiers their lives. American soldiers who signed up to protect America, not liberate Iraqis.
Thousands of Iraqis are being killed every day. By American troops and by terrorists. Most of you probably see this on the news and have stopped paying attention... just look at the newspaper... oh, you'll have to flip a few pages to find it.

I could go on like this all day but plain fact is that George Bush has, in my opinion, been the worst president in the past 50 years. I live in NYC the city which has been hardest hit by terrorists and the place most in danger... don't you find it curious that I and most other New Yorkers voted for Kerry?

The election is over. No need to spout the DNC party line any longer.

As a Vietnam Vet, I couldn't understand how anyone could support JFK2 after checking his voting record, his plan to win the war/peace in Iraq, or living through the crapstorm he created for Viet Vets and the POWS in particular after his return from Southeast Asia.

What happened on GWB's watch is a fairly logical progression from the crap that happened on every presidents term from 1978 on. The warning signs grew ever more apparent under Clinton and his efforts were largely ineffectual in dealing with it. Or did you feel more comfortable after the first WTC bombing (Now what were the actions he took again?) or Khobar towers' or the USS Cole, or Kenya/Nairobi.

Research the facts and you may find that indeed there were training camps under Abu Nidal and others. Saddam had 12 years and numerous Security Council Resolutions to come clean on WMDs. He fired on our aircraft in the No-Fire zones. He played cat and mouse with the UN Inspectors for an unforgivable amount of time. He gambled and lost. With intelligence from our CIA, MI6, and Russia backing the existence of WMDs sounds like a few more people were convinced they existed. The French, Russians and Chinese were busy rebuilding Saddams capabilities under the guise of the Oil for Food program. Read Ken Pollack's The Threatening Storm and maybe you'll see that Gore, Clinton, and more than a few head Dems favored regime change by force toward the end of Clinton's term. I'm sure the Sandy Berger classified document fiasco a few months back had nothing to do with protecting Bill's backside regarding 9-11 and events that led to it either, eh?

There are many other sources regarding Saddam's nuclear program as well. And CBW weapons? He had them. He used them against Iran and his own Kurdish countrymen. Dual use facilities are easily converted and there are still large tonnages of CBW weapons that were inventoried by the UN after the 1991 Gulf War that have not been accounted for. Where do YOU think they went.

Usama?? What? You think because he masterminded the NYC WTC disaster that by capturing him the war is over?? Ever play Wack-a-Mole? That's how the war on terror is going to be for a while. Iraq is now a focus for Al Qaeda and terrorists bent on killing Americans. The good thing is it's over there and we've got the weapons, the backing, and resolve to fight back. GWB has made it more difficult for them to do their work here. We still have a ways to go but since we have been awakened how many home front attacks have you seen here.

Tell me exactly how many "thousands" of American soldiers have lost their lives there. I'll grant you the incidental casualties of war but take a look at Korea, Vietnam, WWII or any major war and see if their combat/civilian death tolls are anywhere close to this war's. The US consciously applies rules of engagement to reduce collateral casualties. Does your enemy???

And thousands of Iraqis everyday??? Please quote a reference here. I myself would raise holy hell if this were the truth and so would most of the civilized world. The UN would be in emergency session right now.

I also could go on like this all day. GWB has been handed a pile of crap and dealt with it. I don't agree with all he's done but he does lead. He has the cajones to take the unpopular stand and the will to see it through. He realizes that "Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" and will commit them to secure our freedoms.

I can't honestly explain why New Yorkers vote as they do. You have some of the strongest gun control in the nation and still have gun violence. You elected Hillary Clinton over what was his name Rick Lazio or something. You read the New York Times and quote it as reliable news. Go figure. It's just one of life's mysteries and your freedom to do so. Celebrate in that and work toward change if you feel that strongly.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and the government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain

[spyderknut]

:eek: Wow. Like the European papers said, how could so many of us been so stupid? We could have appeased the terrorists by electing in the opposition just like the Spanish did. They have not had a terrorist attack since their election, have they?

I think more there are more relevant questions to ask. How could John Kerry have been the best man for the Dems to put up against W? How could John Kerry have selected a Southern trial lawyer who could not even deliver his own state as a running mate? How could the DNC allow a platform that was a moving target?

The majority in the Blue states just cannot understand the concepts of doing what you say and saying what you mean. They cannot grasp the concept of personal responsiblity. They cannot understand that to lower the deficit you need to stimulate economic growth rather than soak the "rich".

The election is over and W et al will be in office another 4 years whether 48% like it or not. I am personally thankful though not without compromise. While I disagree politically with some family members, coworkers and neighbors we all still live and work together. OutofGum's right to express his view and each of our rights to vote for or against a given candidate or issue are part of what makes this country great.

We will move on together. There are arguments that never end. They just wax and wane in intensity during the course of our brief lives on this earth. Opinions are swayed my maturity and life events and world events over which we are powerless. We adapt and survive or we stew in contempt and perish. Enjoy the moment. Enjoy the argument and the ability to say your mind. But get over it if you don't get your way!

[spyderknut]

Oh, and thanks again Java! :spyder: :)

[java]

Oh, and thanks again Java! :spyder: :)

Thanks for your post above. :D Well said!

[OutofGum]

How many days have we been there?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/acheter.cgi?offre=ARCHIVES&type_item=ART_ARCH_30J&objet_id=875314

[Senate]

How many days have we been there?
...
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/acheter.cgi?offre=ARCHIVES&type_item=ART_ARCH_30J&objet_id=875314

Le Monde... Nice dude ;)

[J Smith]

Well posted Java.I am not good at typeing out things like this.
Also IMO the war in Iraq is worth it for no other reason than that Momar Kadafie's(SP?)nukes are now sitting not 30 miles from my house in Oak Ridge.

[thombrogan]

How so? Have you looked at the unemployment figures lately?

I thought that job losses were the result of an employer no longer having a demand for the labor of the person or people whom the employer let go. In turn, that would be because the customer or customers who purchased goods and/or services from the employer had stopped purchasing said goods/services in levels that justified the continued employment. To that end, may I conclude that 'The Shrub' was going around and talking people out of spending and would/could only do so while holding office of the President?

My Spyder-sense is tingling and I believe that a "yeah, but" is coming up. A "yeah, but" about 'Dubya' letting jobs go overseas. In a free economy, or relatively free economy, we are allowed to buy what we can afford to meet our wants and needs be they goods or services. I'll continue being very happy about Delicas and Calypso Jrs made in Seki City, Japan and Salsas made in Taipei, Taiwan until folks in this country can produce them with the same amount of quality for less money or more quality for the same money.

But that's all Bush's fault..

[OutofGum]

There are many factors that have an influence on how the economy is doing (of which unemployment is one part). The president has the greatest sway over the state of the economy, especially when he has a congressional majority on his side. Historically and economically, Bush's policies make no sense. That is one reason there was a petition signed by 10 nobel Laureates protesting his "economic plan."
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/02/12_akerlof.shtml

[java]

How many days have we been there?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/acheter.cgi?offre=ARCHIVES&type_item=ART_ARCH_30J&objet_id=875314


If you read each of these articles, you will see that, they are using the same study. The "study" also admits it did not use exact counts and arrived at its "estimate" through extrapolation. There is also no independent verification of the figures. Furthmore, consider your sources and look again at the slant applied to the reporting. The author so much as stated he wanted the report released a few days before the election - do ya think, with the authors stated anti-war philosophy, he might have a little bias :eek: ??? Does the term "Democratic imperialism" hint of bias and sound like yellow-dog journalism at all??? Even the articles quoted expert said the estimate may not be representative due to its focusing on violent hot spots. Sheesh! Quoting this article sounds like Kerry jumping on the missing explosives news.

If we were to use this "estimate" it, to validate your claim, the war would be less than 100 days so far. To answer your question, I believe it's been a tad longer. Are you also upset at Bush because you weren't schooled under the No Child Left Behind program and then would've been able to do the math? I apologize for the ad hominim counter there but that was just too obvious and easy.

You tried to answer one point but it's nowhere near your claim. Again contrast with previous wars. Try and find a more accurate total to base your claim on and then not only contrast it with previous wars, contrast it with the loss of Mid-Eastern lives from the time of the Iran-Iraq Wars through Gulf War I and up to Saddams's ouster. Saddam's failed wars, his oppression of the Iraqi people, and the legacy of his despicable spawn have taken far more lives than your quoted article's estimate even if it did include Falluja.

I urge you to read and observe more of the human condition - to criticize and question your own viewpoints. I understand you feel strongly about Bush and the war in Iraq but if you are to persue these arguments it is only through learning about the other side and questioning your views that you will reinforce them or realize they are not as you believed. Either way you will come away more knowledgeable and be able to discuss them with clarity and logic.

"There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out." -Russian Proverb

[OutofGum]

Do you have a better estimate? Just because a report was released for a purpose doesn't mean the data is incorrect.

I have never made an ad hominem attack, thank you for refraining as well and keeping this civilized.

This war was unecessary and accomplished nothing. We found no weapons of mass destruction, we did not cut down on the number of terrorists in Iraq. Before the war we had complete air superiority and could bomb an suspected installation at will. I get kind of pissed when American troops die for no reason.

[java]

Do you have a better estimate? Just because a report was released for a purpose doesn't mean the data is incorrect.

I have never made an ad hominem attack, thank you for refraining as well and keeping this civilized.

This war was unecessary and accomplished nothing. We found no weapons of mass destruction, we did not cut down on the number of terrorists in Iraq. Before the war we had complete air superiority and could bomb an suspected installation at will. I get kind of pissed when American troops die for no reason.

OOG,

You made the claim and I asked you to back it up. You gave a WAG, an estimate, an extrapolation.

I didn't make the claim. I just asked you for a reliable source. After analysis, your source is rather dubious at best and inflammatory and misleading at worst. Your defense of it reminds me of the movie Air America when Mel Gibson said "No reason to throw out a perfectly good theory just because it doesn’t' work."

The point here is we don't know what the true figures are and there are going be to collateral casualties in any war. Again contrast with other wars.

The sad thing about this is, and I'm just hypothesizing here, I will wager you a new Spydie that a good percentage of the casualties are caused by insurgents against the local Iraqi populations. These are people that target and bomb children who gather for a social functions. These are people who indiscriminately target and bomb anyone who is not solidly for their perverted cause. These are people who are not necessarily Iraqis themselves but claim solidarity with the struggle against the oppressed Iraqi people then bomb the every-lovin' crap out of their brothers. Terrorists are not always freedom fighters - sometimes they're just freakin' terrorists (read indiscriminate cold-blooded murderers)

We cannot retreat to an isolationist island nation as we thought we could before WWI. We are all connected through the global business world and our strategic political interests and as the world's remaining superpower we are our brother's keeper. The UN found weapons of mass destruction that to this day remain unaccounted for. Saddam did use them. The UN found proscribed missile delivery systems for conventional and CBW warheads. These are historical facts. We have also been overly cautious in trying to claim dual use facilities as evidence of WMD. To say Saddam's WMDs do not exist is fatuous and contrary to Saddam's behavior over the last 12 years. What did he have to gain by stalling??? This whole debacle could have been avoided by Saddam's willingness to live up to the accords he signed and that the UN and the US tried to hold him accountable for. Other nations have been cleared and prospered at the conclusion of hostilities by complying with internationally mandated inspections and regulatory efforts. Why play a shell game with the future of your people and your country???


The fact that the US seems to be one of the few countries with the balls to stand up and hold countries and their leaders responsible for what the rest of the UN Security Council and the World Body at large have agreed upon is a sad comment on the world today and is a harbinger of worse times to come unless we all commit to the rule of law that binds us. Read more on Saddam and his political apparatus before you say there were no terrorists there. Look at the Feyadeen Saddam and some of the other instruments of oppression meant to keep him in power before you say there were no terrorists in Iraq. These people melted into the local populace and continue to use the methods they were trained in. Zarqawi and his ilk relocated to the easiest place to confront kill Americans for now. Do not fool yourself into believing that if not occupied there they wouldn't be here or plotting to come here.

We have air dominance - not superiority. We can attack at will but the will is restrained by the rules of engagement and take humane and political needs into account. The majority of troops that I have spoken to at Fort Hood, Fort Bliss, Fort Sill et al insist that what we are doing is the right thing. There are dissenters and they will grab the headlines because they are aberrations and most newsworthy to a liberal press. You may get pissed off but try telling these troops they are dying and have lost brothers in combat for no reason.

In my 24-years military service I have come to hate war more than you can imagine. I also learned that as long as there are people that would do others harm on a grand scale that which I hate most is most necessary. I wish it were not so but until the Saddams, the Milosevics, the Amins, the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Parks, and the terrorists of the world believe as you and I basically do, it will not change.

j

[jaxon]

Thank you Java !!!!!!!!!!!!

Jaxon

[OutofGum]

You are right, there is no way that we can know the exact number of casualties, no way we can count each one. Therefore we must use estimates and extrapolations which we make as accurate as possible. Granted they are never 100% correct, but they are far from the WAGs that you seem to think they are.

I have no doubt that many of the deaths have been caused by Iraqi terrorists, but the fact is that they are terrorists that did not and would not have existed 18 months ago. War and occupation brought these.

I agree that the US cannot be isolationist and that we need the cooperation of the world, which is one reason that I so opposed the invasion of Iraq. It polarized the US and turned almost every potential ally against us (our only strong European allies seem to be England and Poland at this point). We cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. Of course other nations will persue terrorists within their borders when they can, but they will be less willing to cooperate with us when that is exactly what we need. Most terrorists in the world reside outside of the US and slip in when necessary, if we do not have the allies to track them when abroad, that is a significant blow to our cause and the safety of the nation.

Some of the people I have spoken to who have misgivings about our involvement in Iraq are naval officers. They are very pissed that they have lost their brothers in this war and occupation. They told me in no uncertain terms that they signed up to defend this nation not liberate Iraqis. They have seen combat and despise it.

I look forward to reading your thoughtful and thought provoking comments and criticisms.

[Spidernoir]

I thought that job losses were the result of an employer no longer having a demand for the labor of the person or people whom the employer let go. In turn, that would be because the customer or customers who purchased goods and/or services from the employer had stopped purchasing said goods/services in levels that justified the continued employment. To that end, may I conclude that 'The Shrub' was going around and talking people out of spending and would/could only do so while holding office of the President?

My Spyder-sense is tingling and I believe that a "yeah, but" is coming up. A "yeah, but" about 'Dubya' letting jobs go overseas. In a free economy, or relatively free economy, we are allowed to buy what we can afford to meet our wants and needs be they goods or services. I'll continue being very happy about Delicas and Calypso Jrs made in Seki City, Japan and Salsas made in Taipei, Taiwan until folks in this country can produce them with the same amount of quality for less money or more quality for the same money.

But that's all Bush's fault..

Yes it is. All Dubya has to do is change that little juicy little tax perk that the big corporations (like my former employer) are drooling over which benefits them in moving jobs out of the country. Supply and demand may have something to do with some of the companies leaving the country but alot (again like my former employer) moved out simply for cheaper labor. The average wage where I used to work was $12.00 an hour. The company is now up and running in Reynosa, (spell check) Mexico where the wage is $1.67 an hour USD. I know from friends who still have their jobs at the company that the money saved is not being passed on to the customers, but rather the stockholders. With all do respects Thom, your argument looks good on paper, but I'm living Nafta. And despite where Spyderco's are made, I can no longer afford to buy them. Let alone heat my house.

~Jeff

[thombrogan]

Jeff,

I feel very sorry that your job went to competition across the border. There's a good chance that my job could be moved to a nation such as India or Tejas at the end of my contract. While my family and I benefit greatly from it and I may lack competency to sustain our standard of living elsewhere, it does not justify any desire I may harbor to have to force my employer to keep my call-center open on American ground.

Your friend's believe that helping the stockholders isn't helping the consumers is slightly mistaken, but that may be too bitter of a subject to discuss with you at this time.

OutofGum,

Thanks for posting Akerlof's interview (with ad to petition included). He may have won a Nobel prize in economics, but the argument he posed was frought with examples where he would state that his choice was superior without explaining why.

Could you please, in your own words, explain why you believe that Bush's policies, including those that eliminated certain taxations on investment vehicles such as mutual funds, make no economic sense?

[Ray.Hood]

A toast, coffee of course! Hey, it ain't Jamaican but it will do.
Very well said gentlemen. As for W.M.D? Oh, Saddam had them.
Buried, hidden, sold 'em, etc.Think about the Chemical and Biological
weapons his regime built or had access to. He should be dead and buried.
His regime will be remembered as a bloody past. The Iraqi Prime Minister
will need our help to keep the peace long enough to set up a new, Real
government. It's not the Muslim faith that I'm worried about.
It is the people who twist a religion, Islam, Christianity, or otherwise
for they're own use. Be it power or greed, they are out there.
God bless.

[Indeed]

really allows you to size up the two.

[java]

Someone's new and hasn't adjusted yet. They've been sized and selected. Welcome. Read the article. Seek treatment if applicable.

http://www.bocanews.com/index.php?src=news&prid=10127&category=Local%20News%20%20

All we can do here at the SATC is work on your Sydie addiction. Relax and enjoy.