Knife that screams liner lock got the compression lock - why?

[Wartstein]

...for a bushcraft-worthy knife, the strength of a Compression Lock is a significant advantage.....

Of course not claiming at all that I'd know even remotely close to what you (and of course also Sal) know about knife designs and lock strength - but that said:

Is it a "significant advantage" indeed -?

I always say that I find the comp.lock an ingenious design, especially the way how it makes the basic idea of a linerlock undoubtedly stronger.

But is that really needed even in a "bushcraft-worthy knife"?
Honest question, and sure, if one can have "stronger" this is always nice, but I never felt my Tenacious or Millie (1) ever came close to a lock fail even in "harder" folder bushcraft tasks.

Do you actually hear about let's say Millie 1 users who complain that its lock was to "weak"?
I can recall watching actually rather silly Millie 1 "hard use" tests, but it still was interesting to see that its linerlock could take a brutal beating without failing.

To me personally there are definitely reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (and vice versa!), but practically speaking the higher strength of the former is not a significant one.

[Mushroom]

...for a bushcraft-worthy knife, the strength of a Compression Lock is a significant advantage.....

Of course not claiming at all that I'd know even remotely close to what you (and of course also Sal) know about knife designs and lock strength - but that said:

Is it a "significant advantage" indeed -?

I always say that I find the comp.lock an ingenious design, especially the way how it makes the basic idea of a linerlock undoubtedly stronger.

But is that really needed even in a "bushcraft-worthy knife"?
Honest question, and sure, if one can have "stronger" this is always nice, but I never felt my Tenacious or Millie (1) ever came close to a lock fail even in "harder" folder bushcraft tasks.

Do you actually hear about let's say Millie 1 users who complain that its lock was to "weak"?
I can recall watching actually rather silly Millie 1 "hard use" tests, but it still was interesting to see that its linerlock could take a brutal beating without failing.

To me personally there are definitely reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (and vice versa!), but practically speaking the higher strength of the former is not a significant one.

Are you saying lock strength doesn’t matter to you?

↴

… It is actually almost funny when people on this high level knife discussion forum certainly care about the very details when it comes to the features they look at -. might be sort of steel, might be sharpening angle, might be handle material, might be corrosion resistance, might be slight differences in ergos...
...but then fail to accept that others are exactly the same, just on different features concerning knives...

Folks, this is actually almost an appeal:

- If "YOUR" details matter to you, just respect that OTHER details may matter in exactly the same way to other people.

- At the least: Perhaps don´t almost hunt for comments about features that are not important to you personally anyway to then pick up on those (remember, NOT relevant for you, right ? I don´t discuss S90V vs S110V too, cause the difference does not matter to me personally)

What about lock strength?

[sal]

Thanks Sal, I appreciate the insight.

I don’t mean to impose but if I may ask - at Spyderco, is lock choice for a new model primarily the designers decision or is that decision influenced and made after an R&D process? Maybe it’s a unique process each time or decided another way all together but regardless, I find the whole design process fascinating.

If I’m asking too much, I understand. Sometimes my curiosity gets the best of me!

Hi Nick,

It's really more fluid that you might think. Generally speaking, Eric and/or I will make the final call. We listen to the designer, if they're outside. Some designers, like Ed Schempp and Mike Janich have a great deal of experience and knowledge and so their opinion/request will carry a lot of weight.

Both Eric and I will have a pretty good idea as what lock to use when we begin the design. What does the design need to do? What will work the best for that work. But we've changed our minds after discussing the choice. We still have locks we've invented that are not yet in production.

My designs are more focus on function with much less to appearance. Eric has a much better eye and can usually make my designs look better. But it's a mm her and a mm there. But in all fairness, Eric is pretty busy with the company and the expansion, and he's handling the collaborations. So I'm working on designs. Hope that helps? The normal "ups and downs" of a family business.

sal

[sal]

Linerlocks and Compression Locks appear similar, and they both come in from the side, they actually operate on totally different principals.

sal

[CDEP]

The Comp lock is genius, and I'd prefer it over a liner lock on any model that would work with it.

I'm a mid back lock guy, and passed on the Lil' Native Comp in favor of the back lock version, but when KC offered their Cru-Wear / Smooth Black G10 version I couldn't resist. Now I actually prefer the Comp on the Lil' Native.

[Wartstein]

...for a bushcraft-worthy knife, the strength of a Compression Lock is a significant advantage.....

Of course not claiming at all that I'd know even remotely close to what you (and of course also Sal) know about knife designs and lock strength - but that said:

Is it a "significant advantage" indeed -?

I always say that I find the comp.lock an ingenious design, especially the way how it makes the basic idea of a linerlock undoubtedly stronger.

But is that really needed even in a "bushcraft-worthy knife"?
Honest question, and sure, if one can have "stronger" this is always nice, but I never felt my Tenacious or Millie (1) ever came close to a lock fail even in "harder" folder bushcraft tasks.

Do you actually hear about let's say Millie 1 users who complain that its lock was to "weak"?
I can recall watching actually rather silly Millie 1 "hard use" tests, but it still was interesting to see that its linerlock could take a brutal beating without failing.

To me personally there are definitely reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (and vice versa!), but practically speaking the higher strength of the former is not a significant one.

Are you saying lock strength doesn’t matter to you?

↴

… It is actually almost funny when people on this high level knife discussion forum certainly care about the very details when it comes to the features they look at -. might be sort of steel, might be sharpening angle, might be handle material, might be corrosion resistance, might be slight differences in ergos...
...but then fail to accept that others are exactly the same, just on different features concerning knives...

Folks, this is actually almost an appeal:

- If "YOUR" details matter to you, just respect that OTHER details may matter in exactly the same way to other people.

- At the least: Perhaps don´t almost hunt for comments about features that are not important to you personally anyway to then pick up on those (remember, NOT relevant for you, right ? I don´t discuss S90V vs S110V too, cause the difference does not matter to me personally)

What about lock strength?

Hey Nick, I can´t quite follow what is your point here -

(Perhaps though it´s me and my comments are not worded precisely enough)

- Of course lock strength matters to me: I want a lock that is easily strong enough for anything I might ever throw on it (or ideally several times stronger)

- Now from all I know and experienced both (Spydercos!) linerlock and comp.lock offer just that: Both easily strong enough (but, as I literally said, "if one can have stronger, this is always nice").
So I was asking Mike with his much higher level of knowledge and experience if he has different insights and data that would suggests that the higher strength of a comp.lock is a SIGNIFICANT advantage pactically speaking and in real life experience (again, it is sure nice to have)

- Some examples / analogies

1.) You want a strong fixed blade.
Knife A has 6mm blade stock, Knife B has 7mm while otherwise being exactly the same.
Both can take way more than you´d ever throw on them, but technically speaking Knife B is even stronger (but perhaps has disadvantages on the flip side, like worse cutting geometry).
- So is the 1 mm stock of B really a SIGNIFICANT advantage - ?

2.) You want a pack that can hold up to loads up to 100 pounds.
Pack A can take 500 pounds, pack B 600 pounds (but may have disadvantages like being heavier or stiffer to carry) - both can easily take your 100 pounds
- So has pack B really a SIGNIFICANT advantage over pack B - ?

/ The old comment you linked for whatever reason is on a completely different matter:
It is about that people should RESPECT that for other folks different features might be important than for themselves.

- To me personally for example it is not important if a blade is made out of S30V or S35VN - but I totally respect if people prefer one over the other, and would never say that it is weird if one asks for the one or the other steel.

- While on the other hand for example I like lightweight folders and don´t want people to dismiss that and hint that it would be weird to care for if a knife weighs 2.5 or 4 oz (but I totally respect if weight is NOT important for another person!)

- On the topic here: I totally respect and can see how people might prefer the technically higher strength of the comp.lock! I even said that would be nice to have.

I was just asking, coming from my own experience (limited, that´s exactly why I asked Mike), if the higher strength of a comp.lock really is a huge advantage in real life use.

Exactly BECAUSE lock strength matters to me and I am interested in Mikes (and others) experiences here.

Hope that clears it up!

[Paul Ardbeg]

I have a slight preference for the comp lock over the linerlock, however it strongly depends what works best on a knife design. So on the topic of the Kapara, there is nothing wrong with the complock, it's accessibility that's the issue. I am all for a linerlock on the Kapara but if they turn out as on my beloved GB1 and GB2 (hard to access) then it's not an improvement imo. Then there is the weak detent i've seen on a number of linerlock knives out of Taichung.

[eventhorizon]

One thing that always feels a little off with regard to the comp lock is the somewhat unnatural way I have to pinch the knife with basically just my fingertipps when disengaging the lock.

When disengaging a liner lock the contact area is much greater since the knife kind of rests on the phalanxes of my fingers and part of my palm with the blade facing upwards, which gives me a more natural and more secure feel of holding the knife when closing it.

But this may be just me.

[yablanowitz]

One thing that always feels a little off with regard to the comp lock is the somewhat unnatural way I have to pinch the knife with basically just my fingertipps when disengaging the lock.

When disengaging a liner lock the contact area is much greater since the knife kind of rests on the phalanxes of my fingers and part of my palm with the blade facing upwards, which gives me a more natural and more secure feel of holding the knife when closing it.

But this may be just me.

It's not just you, I feel the same way. One of several reasons I dislike the compression lock.

Nick, not only does lock strength not matter to me, lock presence doesn't matter to me. Treat every folder like a slipjoint and learn how to handle your knife like they taught us in Cub Scouts back in the 1960s and locks become superfluous.

And for the record, the Wolfspyder, while a nice little knife, is not what I would call bushcraft worthy be a long shot.

[Mat_ski]

Comp lock is strong, reliable, and easy to operate. I am not sure what else do you need from a knife lock.

It also appears to me that the way it functions, makes it very tolerant to any side-to-side and up-and-down plays that backlocks or liner locks may be susceptible to. Unless I am misunderstanding the designs.

[Wartstein]

Comp lock is strong, reliable, and easy to operate. I am not sure what else do you need from a knife lock.
...

The comp. lock is a great lock indeed.
But so are backlock, linerlock, CBBL.

"Easy to operate": Yes, the comp.lock is that too, but in less than ideal conditions (gloves...) a linerlock (and backlock and CBBL) are usually a bit better imo.

"Reliable": Yes, but when it comes to closing bias/not opening accidently: Backlock and CBBL are even better.

The linerlock also has the most "natural" operation in my subjective experience and for those who care for that (I actually don't) on knives with choil the completely Idiot proof finger safety aspect when one releases the lock.

[Danke]

For me the advantage of the Comp Lock is how I can open and close a knife with one hand without having to change my grip.

Most of the other locks; well I can close them sorta one handed with some gymnastics but it's for sure not as easy.

[Mushroom]

Thanks Sal, I appreciate the insight.

I don’t mean to impose but if I may ask - at Spyderco, is lock choice for a new model primarily the designers decision or is that decision influenced and made after an R&D process? Maybe it’s a unique process each time or decided another way all together but regardless, I find the whole design process fascinating.

If I’m asking too much, I understand. Sometimes my curiosity gets the best of me!

Hi Nick,

It's really more fluid that you might think. Generally speaking, Eric and/or I will make the final call. We listen to the designer, if they're outside. Some designers, like Ed Schempp and Mike Janich have a great deal of experience and knowledge and so their opinion/request will carry a lot of weight.

Both Eric and I will have a pretty good idea as what lock to use when we begin the design. What does the design need to do? What will work the best for that work. But we've changed our minds after discussing the choice. We still have locks we've invented that are not yet in production.

My designs are more focus on function with much less to appearance. Eric has a much better eye and can usually make my designs look better. But it's a mm her and a mm there. But in all fairness, Eric is pretty busy with the company and the expansion, and he's handling the collaborations. So I'm working on designs. Hope that helps? The normal "ups and downs" of a family business.

sal

Thank you for answering my question so throughly, that was very insightful!

I still have a lot to learn so I’m always grateful for any information I can glean about Spyderco. This forum is one of the many reasons why I have such a passion for the brand.

[Mushroom]

...for a bushcraft-worthy knife, the strength of a Compression Lock is a significant advantage.....

Of course not claiming at all that I'd know even remotely close to what you (and of course also Sal) know about knife designs and lock strength - but that said:

Is it a "significant advantage" indeed -?

I always say that I find the comp.lock an ingenious design, especially the way how it makes the basic idea of a linerlock undoubtedly stronger.

But is that really needed even in a "bushcraft-worthy knife"?
Honest question, and sure, if one can have "stronger" this is always nice, but I never felt my Tenacious or Millie (1) ever came close to a lock fail even in "harder" folder bushcraft tasks.

Do you actually hear about let's say Millie 1 users who complain that its lock was to "weak"?
I can recall watching actually rather silly Millie 1 "hard use" tests, but it still was interesting to see that its linerlock could take a brutal beating without failing.

To me personally there are definitely reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (and vice versa!), but practically speaking the higher strength of the former is not a significant one.

Are you saying lock strength doesn’t matter to you?

↴

… It is actually almost funny when people on this high level knife discussion forum certainly care about the very details when it comes to the features they look at -. might be sort of steel, might be sharpening angle, might be handle material, might be corrosion resistance, might be slight differences in ergos...
...but then fail to accept that others are exactly the same, just on different features concerning knives...

Folks, this is actually almost an appeal:

- If "YOUR" details matter to you, just respect that OTHER details may matter in exactly the same way to other people.

- At the least: Perhaps don´t almost hunt for comments about features that are not important to you personally anyway to then pick up on those (remember, NOT relevant for you, right ? I don´t discuss S90V vs S110V too, cause the difference does not matter to me personally)

What about lock strength?

Hey Nick, I can´t quite follow what is your point here -

(Perhaps though it´s me and my comments are not worded precisely enough)

- Of course lock strength matters to me: I want a lock that is easily strong enough for anything I might ever throw on it (or ideally several times stronger)

- Now from all I know and experienced both (Spydercos!) linerlock and comp.lock offer just that: Both easily strong enough (but, as I literally said, "if one can have stronger, this is always nice").
So I was asking Mike with his much higher level of knowledge and experience if he has different insights and data that would suggests that the higher strength of a comp.lock is a SIGNIFICANT advantage pactically speaking and in real life experience (again, it is sure nice to have)

- Some examples / analogies

1.) You want a strong fixed blade.
Knife A has 6mm blade stock, Knife B has 7mm while otherwise being exactly the same.
Both can take way more than you´d ever throw on them, but technically speaking Knife B is even stronger (but perhaps has disadvantages on the flip side, like worse cutting geometry).
- So is the 1 mm stock of B really a SIGNIFICANT advantage - ?

2.) You want a pack that can hold up to loads up to 100 pounds.
Pack A can take 500 pounds, pack B 600 pounds (but may have disadvantages like being heavier or stiffer to carry) - both can easily take your 100 pounds
- So has pack B really a SIGNIFICANT advantage over pack B - ?

/ The old comment you linked for whatever reason is on a completely different matter:
It is about that people should RESPECT that for other folks different features might be important than for themselves.

- To me personally for example it is not important if a blade is made out of S30V or S35VN - but I totally respect if people prefer one over the other, and would never say that it is weird if one asks for the one or the other steel.

- While on the other hand for example I like lightweight folders and don´t want people to dismiss that and hint that it would be weird to care for if a knife weighs 2.5 or 4 oz (but I totally respect if weight is NOT important for another person!)

- On the topic here: I totally respect and can see how people might prefer the technically higher strength of the comp.lock! I even said that would be nice to have.

I was just asking, coming from my own experience (limited, that´s exactly why I asked Mike), if the higher strength of a comp.lock really is a huge advantage in real life use.

Exactly BECAUSE lock strength matters to me and I am interested in Mikes (and others) experiences here.

Hope that clears it up!

I was just asking for my own clarification because I had remembered that second post I quoted and thought it was relevant.

For some people the fact that the compression lock offers more lock strength than a liner lock at all could be “significant” in and of itself.

In the past, Spyderco developed a method of testing lock strength to create their own set of standards for their knives. It was a destructive test, specifically designed to push the limit of the lock or knife until it failed in some way. They could then analyze the testing data and establish their own in-house standards for lock strength.

One of their highest lock strength standards was referred to as “MBC rated” (Martial Blade Craft) and it is an extremely high standard. I could be mistaken but I believe the compression lock passes the MBC rating tests but the liner lock does not.

One thing that always feels a little off with regard to the comp lock is the somewhat unnatural way I have to pinch the knife with basically just my fingertipps when disengaging the lock.

When disengaging a liner lock the contact area is much greater since the knife kind of rests on the phalanxes of my fingers and part of my palm with the blade facing upwards, which gives me a more natural and more secure feel of holding the knife when closing it.

But this may be just me.

It's not just you, I feel the same way. One of several reasons I dislike the compression lock.

Nick, not only does lock strength not matter to me, lock presence doesn't matter to me. Treat every folder like a slipjoint and learn how to handle your knife like they taught us in Cub Scouts back in the 1960s and locks become superfluous.

And for the record, the Wolfspyder, while a nice little knife, is not what I would call bushcraft worthy be a long shot.

That’s perfectly okay too, thank you for sharing.

[wrdwrght]

One thing that always feels a little off with regard to the comp lock is the somewhat unnatural way I have to pinch the knife with basically just my fingertipps when disengaging the lock.

When disengaging a liner lock the contact area is much greater since the knife kind of rests on the phalanxes of my fingers and part of my palm with the blade facing upwards, which gives me a more natural and more secure feel of holding the knife when closing it.

But this may be just me.

It's not just you, I feel the same way. One of several reasons I dislike the compression lock.

Nick, not only does lock strength not matter to me, lock presence doesn't matter to me. Treat every folder like a slipjoint and learn how to handle your knife like they taught us in Cub Scouts back in the 1960s and locks become superfluous.

And for the record, the Wolfspyder, while a nice little knife, is not what I would call bushcraft worthy be a long shot.

Yeah, it’s not for nuthin’ we distinguish between folders and fixies. A folder with a lock may still fold...

[yablanowitz]

One thing that always feels a little off with regard to the comp lock is the somewhat unnatural way I have to pinch the knife with basically just my fingertipps when disengaging the lock.

When disengaging a liner lock the contact area is much greater since the knife kind of rests on the phalanxes of my fingers and part of my palm with the blade facing upwards, which gives me a more natural and more secure feel of holding the knife when closing it.

But this may be just me.

It's not just you, I feel the same way. One of several reasons I dislike the compression lock.

Nick, not only does lock strength not matter to me, lock presence doesn't matter to me. Treat every folder like a slipjoint and learn how to handle your knife like they taught us in Cub Scouts back in the 1960s and locks become superfluous.

And for the record, the Wolfspyder, while a nice little knife, is not what I would call bushcraft worthy be a long shot.

Yeah, it’s not for nuthin’ we distinguish between folders and fixies. A folder with a lock may still fold...

Not "may", will. If it won't, it isn't a folder.

[Jesla]

Okay…. We determined a Fixed won’t fold (supposedly) and Folders will Fold (at some point).

…. Where is this going?

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Circling back to Wartstein's questions about my statement: "...for a bushcraft-worthy knife, the strength of a Compression Lock is a significant advantage..."

Of course not claiming at all that I'd know even remotely close to what you (and of course also Sal) know about knife designs and lock strength - but that said:

Is it a "significant advantage" indeed -?

I always say that I find the comp.lock an ingenious design, especially the way how it makes the basic idea of a linerlock undoubtedly stronger.

But is that really needed even in a "bushcraft-worthy knife"?
Honest question, and sure, if one can have "stronger" this is always nice, but I never felt my Tenacious or Millie (1) ever came close to a lock fail even in "harder" folder bushcraft tasks.

Do you actually hear about let's say Millie 1 users who complain that its lock was to "weak"?
I can recall watching actually rather silly Millie 1 "hard use" tests, but it still was interesting to see that its linerlock could take a brutal beating without failing.

To me personally there are definitely reasons to prefer a comp.lock over a linerlock (and vice versa!), but practically speaking the higher strength of the former is not a significant one.

My opinion was intended to address the broad scope of ALL LinerLocks and ALL Compression Locks. I was not comparing a WolfSpyder to a Military Model or commenting on the merits of any other specific knives.

I have personally had a LinerLock fail on me during use and did not enjoy the experience. I have never had a Compression Lock fail. Like all of us, I am both a product and victim of my own experience.

Objectively, however, the engineering of LinerLocks involves many factors, including the angle of the tang ramp, the angle of the lock bar face, the thickness of the liner, the length of the lock bar, its spring tension, the material, hardness, and finish of the lock bar, the amount of contact surface at the lock face, and whether the tang ramp is flat or has the added benefit of a Terzuola-style concave ramp (as the Military Model does). I also believe the size of the cutout of the lock-release "scallop" in the handle--if any--is a very significant aspect of LinerLock design (I'm not alone in that. Look at Gayle Bradley's LinerLock designs.).

With all those dynamics in play, there are many variables in executing a LinerLock well. The more variables there are, the more room for error. That fact, and the fact that you must momentarily "tempt fate" by placing your thumb in the path of the edge when releasing the lock, collectively define its "overall potential"--at least according to my personal logic.

The Compression Lock certainly shares some of the same variables of the LinerLock's engineering, but is significantly different mechanically. Its mechanical differences, its vectors of force, and the fact that the lock release tab is positioned in the softest part of your hand during use are quantifiable and significant advantages.

My personal experience has also included the privilege of witnessing lock-strength tests in Spyderco's R&D lab. I have seen firsthand how LinerLocks fail and how Compression Locks fail and have seen the force involved for each. Based on that experience, I much prefer the WAY Compression Locks fail to the WAY LinerLocks fail and the relative forces involved to cause each failure.

In simple terms, I regard a knife with a Compression Lock like a truck. A LinerLock is more like a car. If I'm driving off road (an analogy for the rigors of bushcrafting with a knife), I'd rather have a truck. Could I drive a car off road? Sure. Would some cars survive that challenge better than others? Of course. But in general terms, some kind of truck would probably be a better choice.

With all that said, if I KNEW I was going to do any type of bushcrafting, I wouldn't choose a folder. If I absolutely had to, it wouldn't be either a LinerLock or a WolfSpyder.

Stay safe,

Mike

[James Y]

I always love it whenever Mr. Janich shares his insights and experiences.

Jim

[sal]

Me too.

sal