Calypso Jr Sprint Run Considerations

[Tristan_david2001]

For those who disagree with any proposed changes to the model; does omitting the sharpening choil, including screw construction, adding jimping to the blade-hump, or asking for a higher quality final product honestly change the profile and usability of this knife, to make it something other than the Caly Jr? I could see if the proposed list included asking for a longer blade/handle, different lock, different blade grind or shape, etc. eliciting actual counter-offensive discussion. I'm genuinely trying to understand the utter disdain here for potential/proposed CQI.

No it doesn’t make it not a caly jr. It makes a caly jr with changes that aren’t necessary imo. It’s all a matter of opinion. I’m not offended by anyone who wants to see some changes brought to it. All I can say is that I disagree that any changes should be made. I like the sharpening notch, I like the unjimpeed choil and thumb ramp, I like the pinned construction (less to go wrong imo). The only cqi I can agree to is perhaps even a better fit and finish, but my example of the frn caly jr is executed pretty flawlessly so I don’t really have any complaints. It’s just preference, it doesn’t really go much deeper than that. Just because you see jimping and no notch as an improvement doesn’t objectively make it an improvement

[Wartstein]

...

... Just because you see jimping and no notch as an improvement doesn’t objectively make it an improvement

I can follow and definitely respect all of your points - except concernig the sharpening notch.

Once more: Why should those who like the design of the Jr. but find that notch to be (and I am exaggerating) a snagging Implement and annoying chip in the edge right from the factory be left with just that without a good way to get rid of it ... while almost all of those who like the notch can add one in just a minute anyway?!

[Tristan_david2001]

...

... Just because you see jimping and no notch as an improvement doesn’t objectively make it an improvement

I can follow and definitely respect all of your points - except concernig the sharpening notch.

Once more: Why should those who like the design of the Jr. but find that notch to be (and I am exaggerating) a snagging Implement and annoying chip in the edge right from the factory be left with just that without a good way to get rid of it ... while almost all of those who like the notch can add one in just a minute anyway?!

I would just personally rather not have to do it myself and the knife come the way I want it right out of the box. I probably couldn’t execute it the same way it was manufactured, the notch sits heavily in the blade choil and not on the actual edge itself. So it would be a fairly thick piece of steel to file into. I also don’t have the right file to do it. I get your point, but I personally still hope the calypso jr retains the notch.

[weeping minora]

For those who disagree with any proposed changes to the model; does omitting the sharpening choil, including screw construction, adding jimping to the blade-hump, or asking for a higher quality final product honestly change the profile and usability of this knife, to make it something other than the Caly Jr? I could see if the proposed list included asking for a longer blade/handle, different lock, different blade grind or shape, etc. eliciting actual counter-offensive discussion. I'm genuinely trying to understand the utter disdain here for potential/proposed CQI.

No it doesn’t make it not a caly jr. It makes a caly jr with changes that aren’t necessary imo. It’s all a matter of opinion. I’m not offended by anyone who wants to see some changes brought to it. All I can say is that I disagree that any changes should be made. I like the sharpening notch, I like the unjimpeed choil and thumb ramp, I like the pinned construction (less to go wrong imo). The only cqi I can agree to is perhaps even a better fit and finish, but my example of the frn caly jr is executed pretty flawlessly so I don’t really have any complaints. It’s just preference, it doesn’t really go much deeper than that. Just because you see jimping and no notch as an improvement doesn’t objectively make it an improvement

Everything discussed here is merely a matter of opinion. I'm honestly happy that you, and obviously all opposed to potential changes (or CQI), have been happy and satisfied with your examples of the model. The reality is, that many things have changed (preferences, capabilities of manufacture, etc.) since the model essentially "lived its life", and just because you want the knife to remain as it was originally constructed, does not objectively make any proposition of change invalid. To eschew and discredit at least the discussion of change/CQI seems pretty backwards amongst the Spyderco forum, and ironic at best.

I don't view all of the proposed changes as "better", or even as CQI, myself. The only changes that I would stand behind are screw construction and no sharpening choil. The jimping is a take-or-leave it feature, to me. Upping the quality shouldn't really need to be considered as a "change", or CQI, IMO, it should be the standard to improve, not the potential exception.

[Tristan_david2001]

Right, we agree it’s all a matter of opinion in this scenario. You think changing to screw construction and removing the sharpening choil is objectively superior quality.. I don’t think that’s objective. I prefer pinned construction and a sharpening notch for this model and think it is a superior decision in quality. It’s really that simple.

[weeping minora]

Right, we agree it’s all a matter of opinion in this scenario. You think changing to screw construction and removing the sharpening choil is objectively superior quality.. I don’t think that’s objective. I prefer pinned construction and a sharpening notch for this model and think it is a superior decision in quality. It’s really that simple.

Objectively, we both have our subjective preferences. How bout that?

[Bolster]

Not convinced by the arguments above, because Spyderco has been evolving its classic designs in thoughtful directions for decades, and I would call those evolutions, improvements. Look at an original Delica and the current Delica. You could opine the changes are not improvements, they're just changes based on (Sal's) opinions. My "opinion" is that Spyderco's evolutionary process works pretty well. Not always, but I usually like the evolved products better than the original products. There are of course exceptions (for me, the Stretch 1, Chinook 1, & Bradley 1) but I'd guess 80% of the time the tweaks that Spyderco puts on new versions, are enhancements that make me more satisfied with the evolved product.

So I vote "Let Sal do what he wants to do" because if he changes anything, we'll probably like it. That's certainly his track record and the safe bet to make.

I kinda hope Sal ignores all the advice in this thread and just does what he is inclined to do. Sometimes I feel like we are passing pedestrians telling Rembrandt how to paint.

[weeping minora]

Not convinced by the arguments above, because Spyderco has been evolving its classic designs in thoughtful directions for decades, and I would call those evolutions, improvements. Look at an original Delica and the current Delica. You could opine the changes are not improvements, they're just changes based on (Sal's) opinions. My "opinion" is that Spyderco's evolutionary process works pretty well. Not always, but I usually like the evolved products better than the original products. There are of course exceptions (for me, the Stretch 1, Chinook 1, & Bradley 1) but I'd guess 80% of the time the tweaks that Spyderco puts on new versions, are enhancements that make me more satisfied with the evolved product.

So I vote "Let Sal do what he wants to do" because if he changes anything, we'll probably like it. That's certainly his track record and the safe bet to make.

I kinda hope Sal ignores all the advice in this thread and just does what he is inclined to do. Sometimes I feel like we are passing pedestrians telling Rembrandt how to paint.

Uh, since when is an enhancement, not a form of improvement?

You reference the Delica that has had four iterations since its existence. The Caly Jr has had one iteration, over the span of 27 years. This is not a direct comparison to prove your point, and discredit all other discussion.

Lastly, you don't think ELU input is valuable, and much less-so to the point that input has never lead to "enhancements" for any ELU, much less yourself; so sal, nor Spyderco as a company should listen to any such BS input from the forum(ites) here, because we aren't all knife designers, nor do we all run production knife companies ourselves?

Interesting.

[Bolster]

Uh, since when is an enhancement, not a form of improvement?

You reference the Delica that has had four iterations since its existence. The Caly Jr has had one iteration, over the span of 27 years. This is not a direct comparison to prove your point, and discredit all other discussion.

Lastly, you don't think ELU input is valuable, and much less-so to the point that input has never lead to "enhancements" for any ELU, much less yourself; so sal, nor Spyderco as a company should listen to any such BS input from the forum(ites) here, because we aren't all knife designers, nor do we all run production knife companies ourselves?

Interesting.

Geez.

(1) Uh, what? By enhancement I mean improvement. They are synonyms. Not sure what point you're making here. You seem to have missed the point that I'm on the CQI side of the argument, if you'd read back in this thread. That said, I'd rather the designer do what he does best, than listen to my particular desires for improvement.

(2) I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I'm submitting evidence of the positive evolution in Spyderco designs. Do you think one iteration means no improvement, but four iterations means improvement? I get your emotion, but not your logic.

(3) "Discredit all other discussion?" Exaggerate much? I put in my preference for jimping on the handle under the thumb, and would like screw construction too, but am perfectly content if Spyderco makes a different call. I'm comfortable with an actual world-renowned knife designer deciding which improvements, if any, he'd like to add.

(4) Your last point actually hits home. I think "design by forum shout-down" is a lousy way to design a knife, just as the audience telling Beethoven how to compose is a lousy way to produce symphony. But since you asked about my perspective: I think a broad average of ELU opinions (not single strident opinions repeated over and over) are useful in giving a designer marketable background info, but taken too far that becomes design-by-committee. I think it's better for an informed and experienced designer to, at some point, ignore the cacophony of contradictory afi opinion and just "do his thing."

[Tristan_david2001]

I agree ultimately is the glessers’ and spyderco decision what is ‘CQI’ to them, and when to apply it. Spydercos always been good at paying attention to user feedback to make cqi changes and I admire that. Right now in this thread for those that have participated it seems kinda 50/50 on whether the knife needs design modifications. Personally I think it’s the kind of design in spyderco’s catalog now where the calypso is such a cult classic that changing the design now wouldn’t make much sense, I think the knife is also only going to be a sprint. Not a current production flagship model like the delica is.

[weeping minora]

Uh, since when is an enhancement, not a form of improvement?

You reference the Delica that has had four iterations since its existence. The Caly Jr has had one iteration, over the span of 27 years. This is not a direct comparison to prove your point, and discredit all other discussion.

Lastly, you don't think ELU input is valuable, and much less-so to the point that input has never lead to "enhancements" for any ELU, much less yourself; so sal, nor Spyderco as a company should listen to any such BS input from the forum(ites) here, because we aren't all knife designers, nor do we all run production knife companies ourselves?

Interesting.

Geez.

(1) Uh, what? By enhancement I mean improvement. They are synonyms. Not sure what point you're making here. You seem to have missed the point that I'm on the CQI side of the argument, if you'd read back in this thread. That said, I'd rather the designer do what he does best, than listen to my particular desires for improvement.

(2) I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I'm submitting evidence of the positive evolution in Spyderco designs. Do you think one iteration means no improvement, but four iterations means improvement? I get your emotion, but not your logic.

(3) "Discredit all other discussion?" Exaggerate much? I put in my preference for jimping on the handle under the thumb, and would like screw construction too, but am perfectly content if Spyderco makes a different call. I'm comfortable with an actual world-renowned knife designer deciding which improvements, if any, he'd like to add.

(4) Your last point actually hits home. I think "design by forum shout-down" is a lousy way to design a knife, just as the audience telling Beethoven how to compose is a lousy way to produce symphony. But since you asked about my perspective: I think a broad average of ELU opinions (not single strident opinions repeated over and over) are useful in giving a designer marketable background info, but taken too far that becomes design-by-committee. I think it's better for an informed and experienced designer to, at some point, ignore the cacophony of contradictory afi opinion and just "do his thing."

(1): I read your first sentence as, "...I would call those evolutions, not improvements". I was wrong, and for that I do apologize. I suppose after reading your last paragraph, it skewed your opening statement when I re-read and responded as such.

(2): The Caly Jr has pretty much been "extinct" since 2007; having one Sprint Run in 2018, aside from this proposed upcoming Sprint, possibly adding an additional year or two, bridging yet another 7-8 years for one additional variant. Many of those models in the 2000s had been merely Sprint Runs, as they were. My point was, the Delica has most likely remained in the standard production lineup for all these years, due to those evolutions/enhancements within each new iteration. I didn't really want to make such a long-winded post, and I thought the history of these two models would tell their own respective stories. Of course, this is only my hunch, as history has already written itself, but; one model has zero CQI, or otherwise changes, and has become "effectively extinct", and the other has had four revisions and remains in production to this day. Name another Spyderco that has lasted over 3 decades with zero changes, that still remains relevant within their catalog. The Military (1) is the longest running at nearly 28 years, but even it, too, underwent many CQI enhancements. If the Caly Jr at least went through a form or two of CQI, it may still be relevant. With sal explaining that the UKPK, and ultimately Caly 3 being successors of the Caly Jr "cockpit", I'd venture to say that there would at minimum be a Caly Jr 3 (since the Caly 3 itself is no more), to even be considered as a current production model. Expressing the evolution of the Delica, amidst proposed CQI for the Caly Jr, is not a valid argument to eschew the potential for change within the Caly Jr. Again, perhaps the contradiction within your last paragraph has altered my understanding of this point to your post?

(3)+(4): sal asked what we would want out of this Sprint Run. A couple suggestions in regards to improving the model get mentioned in discussion and all-of-a-sudden it's "design-by-committee"? We're proposing a few minute changes on a model that has remained unchanged for the past 27 years (aside materials). Obviously sal has found worth in these types of discussions and inputs from the ELU, via this forum (amongst others). If you feel this is all a way to "design by forum shout-down" (which we are not designing here, anyway), that's ultimately your opinion, but we very much agree to disagree over that statement. Just because 2, or 3 people express sharing the same opinion of "improvement", does not elicit your sentiment of disregard. Spyderco ultimately either A) designs in-house, or B) collaborates, and we, as the ELUs/AFIs, get to help enhance, or otherwise improve, some of those knives via our feedback and input. To make statements such as your last is at minimum, dismissive of a large amount of what this forum is about, regardless of overall agreeability with such opinions, or statements. Whether you meant it as-such, or not, I felt like that was a low-blow to this discussion, and was overall intended to dismiss our collective input and discussion.

[Wartstein]

...

... J

I can follow and definitely respect all of your points - except concernig the sharpening notch.

Once more: Why should those who like the design of the Jr. but find that notch to be (and I am exaggerating) a snagging Implement and annoying chip in the edge right from the factory be left with just that without a good way to get rid of it ... while almost all of those who like the notch can add one in just a minute anyway?!

I would just personally rather not have to do it myself and the knife come the way I want it right out of the box. I probably couldn’t execute it the same way it was manufactured, the notch sits heavily in the blade choil and not on the actual edge itself. So it would be a fairly thick piece of steel to file into. I also don’t have the right file to do it. I get your point, but I personally still hope the calypso jr retains the notch.

Thanks for your reply, valid points.

I actually really like how the notch is executed if there has to be one in the first place (!) with it being to a large part NOT in the actual edge.
Something I noticed in my first post/question about it and pointed out as positive.

You know, part of my wish for no notch of course is selfish - I can see this model fitting very good in my personal "small knife niche" from a practical point of view, it has a lot of features I like, especially the to me "right" kind of choil (not too recessed and "flat". Large radius. Leaves a lot of material under the index finger compared to the other fingers...), the low weight, the not too "curvy" edge, the low tip and so on.

Personally I find sharpening notches nothing but annoying though, I even never really understood the "why" (why have a "chip" in the edge while otherwise at worst one just would have a short, unsharpened part of edge instead of that "chip").

So it is a bit frustrating to think that there could be a knife that fits the bill really well, but has that annoying feature I can't really change - while I know, if it was the other way round - no notch, but I'd like one - it would be an easy fix for me.

And the latter is true generally I guess, even if I see your point (especially that adding a choil in the thicker part behind the edge might be more work).

[brj]

A Calypso Jr. sprint is one of the very few Spydercos I'd be interested in buying. The only CQI it needs is better build quality / attention to details from the maker.



My Superblue is in my pocket today due to this thread.

[elena86]

I personally don’t want ANY changes made to it.

Keep the Caly Jr the Caly Jr.

Totally agree ! The Calypso jr. is perfect as it is. I like everything about it but I wouldn’t mind an adjustable pivot. That’s all.

OK, to play Devil’s advocate here, the ultimate CQI version of the Calypso Jr. hopefully exists as the up and coming FRN Caly, which comes complete with all these requested updates. Don’t fix what isn’t really broke…

Yep, you would think that they should enjoy the upcoming “improved” Caly3 and leave our beloved good old Calypso jr unspoiled, with sharpening choil and all… but no ! They must be stopped with all cost

So over the course of a 25 hour span between these posts, you "wouldn't mind" an adjustable pivot (screw construction), and then are in complete opposition to all change? What gives?

The wishy-washy comments from some involved in this discussion here is incredibly confusing. I understand there are those opposed to change, but at least leave the jestful remarks aside (if that's what they are) to remain comprehensible enough to give weight to your stance.

Just to be clear, and not ''wishy-washy'' , the adjustable pivot is not quite a change IMO because it doesn't interfere with the specificity of the design so to speak. Oh, and the fact that I ''wouldn't mind'' means exactly that, no more and no less.

[Jaxonb]

I vote for cry ware and dark blue frn

[Jaxonb]

Looking forward to getting a new calypso jr,i!

[Tristan_david2001]

It’s nice seeing many interested in this classy knife. Here are some comparison shots of the jr from me.
My ultimate opinion on the changes proposed is, I don’t dislike the idea of change but the ones proposed doesn’t suit my preference and I think for the knife that it is. It’s perfect. The biggest thing I think people want to see is screw construction. I don’t hate the idea, but I prefer the clean look of pins, and honestly I’ve found it easier if the action is gunked up, to just scrub it and rinse it underwater for min every once in a while and never have to many any more of a fuss than that about it. The biggest ‘cqi’ you could do with this knife imo is manufacturing it with nicely chamfered and polished black linen micarta with flush stainless pins on top of skeletonized steel liners. It would be a little heavy, but worth it

[Wartstein]

It’s nice seeing many interested in this classy knife. Here are some comparison shots of the jr from me.
My ultimate opinion on the changes proposed is, I don’t dislike the idea of change but the ones proposed doesn’t suit my preference and I think for the knife that it is. It’s perfect. The biggest thing I think people want to see is screw construction. I don’t hate the idea, but I prefer the clean look of pins, and honestly I’ve found it easier if the action is gunked up, to just scrub it and rinse it underwater for min every once in a while and never have to many any more of a fuss than that about it. The biggest ‘cqi’ you could do with this knife imo is manufacturing it with nicely chamfered and polished black linen micarta with flush stainless pins on top of skeletonized steel liners. It would be a little heavy, but worth it

Nice pics and nice to read how you really love this model!

... my biggest "cqi" wish actually would still be a tip up option, but as said: Since there is a lanyard hole I´d just come up with some solution of mounting a clip there myself and leave the model in its "original" clip configuration for all who appreciate that!
(Also, making new molds just for a tip up option would be a bit much to ask anyway)

[weeping minora]

It’s nice seeing many interested in this classy knife. Here are some comparison shots of the jr from me.
My ultimate opinion on the changes proposed is, I don’t dislike the idea of change but the ones proposed doesn’t suit my preference and I think for the knife that it is. It’s perfect. The biggest thing I think people want to see is screw construction. I don’t hate the idea, but I prefer the clean look of pins, and honestly I’ve found it easier if the action is gunked up, to just scrub it and rinse it underwater for min every once in a while and never have to many any more of a fuss than that about it. The biggest ‘cqi’ you could do with this knife imo is manufacturing it with nicely chamfered and polished black linen micarta with flush stainless pins on top of skeletonized steel liners. It would be a little heavy, but worth it

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Tristan.

The biggest reason I would suggest a switch to screw construction is if the knife happens to get a semi-stainless, or non-stainless steel for this Sprint. Much easier to prevent, or at least clean, any corrosion; most importantly around the pivot. I also prefer to have the ability to modify, or otherwise tune my knives to my liking. Screw construction allows that freedom of choice, much easier, and layman friendly to boot.

It looks as though SPY27 is the unanimous choice (thus far), but I suppose that's ultimately up to Spyderco and the maker for the final call. I would be happy with any of the combos proposed, and to be completely honest, I would be happy even if my preferences towards the changes weren't implemented for the Sprint. I think the discussion got a little too personally heated. I apologize if I spread offense within my ask of the opinions of those who they felt the opinions of others who sought change were unnecessary, and the abrasive manner that I ultimately went about it. I think there was misunderstanding, and I admit, I misunderstood quite a few opinions here during my "conquest for clarity of opinion". Undoubtedly, if we weren't all passionate about our suggestions, we wouldn't be here discussing them as such. I'm sorry for my tone and for letting my emotion ultimately get the better of some of my statements.

[Tristan_david2001]

No need to apologize weeping minora, it’s all about the passion at the end of the day
And you make a good point, especially with the steel being more prone to corrosion.
I’m fine with any changes happening based off what the general market wants to spyderco to do, if spyderco chooses to oblige the requests. I already have a frn calypso jr. I feel is pretty much perfect for my needs already, and I don’t really feel the need to ever get more than one. unless I lose my only one, but good thing there’s a secondary market. My passion for what I want spyderco to do is merely just my preferences I express.