That would be amazing! It would give me a reason to get a new wallet and a new knife!
Flatbyrd 2?
- Josh Crutchley
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- Location: Michigan
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
I'm not sure I understand. If the Spydercard is 5mm thick, why can't the Flatbyrd also be made in that thickness ?
Thanks for the feedback. It conforms that the Flatbyrd would benefit from some CQI on the lever (enlarging it, so that the thumb action becomes more natural).
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
The thickness of the dies of the Flatbyrd handle is 1.5 mm. If they have a thickness of 1 mm, they will lose rigidity, IMHO. You can make an integral design, like on a Spydercard, but this will surely complicate production, which means the knife will become more expensive.
Previously, some knives used almost transparent washers made from some kind of film. They are thinner than a sheet of paper. For example, these were installed on the Military when it had a blade thickness of 4 mm. I have had such a knife in constant use for 10 years, and there are no problems with washers. Maybe it is possible to use such washers somewhere now?
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
I didn't realize the Military used to have non-metallic washers. I'm guessing Teflon? I don't even know if the polymer washers knife makers use is really PTFE, or if "teflon" is just a catch-all colloquial term for any polymer washer. Either way, public opinion seems to be very negative about polymer washers, despite some unique advantages. I imagine people would care less in an economic Byrd model, though.DerRock wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:15 amThe thickness of the dies of the Flatbyrd handle is 1.5 mm. If they have a thickness of 1 mm, they will lose rigidity, IMHO. You can make an integral design, like on a Spydercard, but this will surely complicate production, which means the knife will become more expensive.
Previously, some knives used almost transparent washers made from some kind of film. They are thinner than a sheet of paper. For example, these were installed on the Military when it had a blade thickness of 4 mm. I have had such a knife in constant use for 10 years, and there are no problems with washers. Maybe it is possible to use such washers somewhere now?
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
This prompts a naïve question on my part : is rigidity that important on such a small knife ? Is it even noticeable ?After all, it's not meant for demanding tasks.DerRock wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:15 amThe thickness of the dies of the Flatbyrd handle is 1.5 mm. If they have a thickness of 1 mm, they will lose rigidity, IMHO. You can make an integral design, like on a Spydercard, but this will surely complicate production, which means the knife will become more expensive.
I imagine it's rather an issue about the feeling in the hand, as opposed to actual performance/safety concerns (e.g. I've read people complain about the Benchmade Bugout's plastic handle which can flex noticeably, but the complaints were restricted in scope to the weird feedback which the handle gives under pressure).
Now that you mention it, the washers on my recent Meadowlark are very thin - prolly less than 1 mm when put together. They look like those on your picture.DerRock wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:15 amPreviously, some knives used almost transparent washers made from some kind of film. They are thinner than a sheet of paper. For example, these were installed on the Military when it had a blade thickness of 4 mm. I have had such a knife in constant use for 10 years, and there are no problems with washers. Maybe it is possible to use such washers somewhere now?
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Out of curiosity, what are the criticisms levied against polymer washers ?Toucan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:03 pmI didn't realize the Military used to have non-metallic washers. I'm guessing Teflon? I don't even know if the polymer washers knife makers use is really PTFE, or if "teflon" is just a catch-all colloquial term for any polymer washer. Either way, public opinion seems to be very negative about polymer washers, despite some unique advantages. I imagine people would care less in an economic Byrd model, though.
And are they even recent ? Perhaps the latest advances in polymer formulation have been able to offset previous issues.
Also, yes, such washers wouldn't be a dealbreaker for Byrds. Especially if they're chosen not as a cost saving measure, but for technical reasons.
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
It seems most polymer washer-haters feel that it's a cheap material, so there is an assumption that it won't last, or will adversely affect the action/play. This can come from ignorance of the material and its properties -- similar to the general mistrust of polymer "wonder 9's" in the 80's and 90's, or from experience with cheap knives that are built and designed sloppily that happen to use polymer washers, but would be bad regardless of materials. Some know polymer washer performance is good, but don't like it because it doesn't come off as "premium" -- much like how some feel about FRN. I feel this is a completely valid preference so long as it is acknowledged as an aesthetic matter and not functional.Araignee wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:03 pmOut of curiosity, what are the criticisms levied against polymer washers ?Toucan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:03 pmI didn't realize the Military used to have non-metallic washers. I'm guessing Teflon? I don't even know if the polymer washers knife makers use is really PTFE, or if "teflon" is just a catch-all colloquial term for any polymer washer. Either way, public opinion seems to be very negative about polymer washers, despite some unique advantages. I imagine people would care less in an economic Byrd model, though.
And are they even recent ? Perhaps the latest advances in polymer formulation have been able to offset previous issues.
Also, yes, such washers wouldn't be a dealbreaker for Byrds. Especially if they're chosen not as a cost saving measure, but for technical reasons.
Some say the flexible polymer contributes to blade play, but I have not found this to be true. It seems more an attempt at functional critique to justify aesthetic preference.
I think the most legitimate functional issue is they can get damaged from over tightening more readily than PB washers. I have seen this only a few times, but it was all from improper re-assembly.
If the polymer washers are indeed Teflon, a lot of people are rightly anti-Teflon because of PFOA in the environment, but I haven't seen that criticism levied at washers in knives yet.
At any rate, polymer washer performance is good, and pretty much is what it is. I don't know that there will be a new wonder polymer that radically changes the game enough to change the minds of people set in their ways.
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Thanks a bunch for this broad summary, many "dislike factors" to ponder uponToucan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:44 pmIt seems most polymer washer-haters feel that it's a cheap material, so there is an assumption that it won't last, or will adversely affect the action/play. This can come from ignorance of the material and its properties -- similar to the general mistrust of polymer "wonder 9's" in the 80's and 90's, or from experience with cheap knives that are built and designed sloppily that happen to use polymer washers, but would be bad regardless of materials. Some know polymer washer performance is good, but don't like it because it doesn't come off as "premium" -- much like how some feel about FRN. I feel this is a completely valid preference so long as it is acknowledged as an aesthetic matter and not functional.
Some say the flexible polymer contributes to blade play, but I have not found this to be true. It seems more an attempt at functional critique to justify aesthetic preference.
I think the most legitimate functional issue is they can get damaged from over tightening more readily than PB washers. I have seen this only a few times, but it was all from improper re-assembly.
If the polymer washers are indeed Teflon, a lot of people are rightly anti-Teflon because of PFOA in the environment, but I haven't seen that criticism levied at washers in knives yet.
At any rate, polymer washer performance is good, and pretty much is what it is. I don't know that there will be a new wonder polymer that radically changes the game enough to change the minds of people set in their ways.
It seems that most of the complaints are due to preconceptions then. In which case, the use of polymer washers in Byrds should disspell these negative myths. Ditto for those who had prior bad experiences, as Byrds are more than decent for their price, and I trust Sal would make sure the washers don't lead to a subpar experience.
Funny that you mention the "not premium enough" camp, as it's pretty much where I sit
Then again the price tag can ease this preference.
With a Spyderco-branded knife, I'd rather have bronze washers and non FRN handles.
But with a cheap-ish Byrd, one has to be realistic regarding the materials employed, and also objective regarding their performance (in the sense that cheaper doesn't always mean worse - FRN works well and polymer washers should also perform satisfactorily).
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Anytime!
Yeah, I used to vacillate between love and hate with FRN. But, for a few years now it's been my favorite handle material partially because I like light knives and bright colors, but also because I've come to have a preference for knives that don't look overly fancy.
Unfortunately, perceived quality is huge. A good example is that car makers actually spend a lot of money on engineers and people with degrees in psychoacoustics to make the sound of their doors closing feel solid. If they don't, even the most robust and safe modern car door will sound tinny and scare off potential buyers. It's purely an aesthetic issue, but it's still a necessary consideration for car design to be viable.
Yeah, I used to vacillate between love and hate with FRN. But, for a few years now it's been my favorite handle material partially because I like light knives and bright colors, but also because I've come to have a preference for knives that don't look overly fancy.
Unfortunately, perceived quality is huge. A good example is that car makers actually spend a lot of money on engineers and people with degrees in psychoacoustics to make the sound of their doors closing feel solid. If they don't, even the most robust and safe modern car door will sound tinny and scare off potential buyers. It's purely an aesthetic issue, but it's still a necessary consideration for car design to be viable.
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
The disadvantage of polymer washers is their fragility. That's why I prefer bronze.
But polymers are different. I repeat, on my old school Military for 10 years, the washers have changed little.
But polymers are different. I repeat, on my old school Military for 10 years, the washers have changed little.
- Ranger_Ike
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- Location: Southern Indiana
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Wow. This is cool. These would be awesome gifts. I’d be in for a few for sure.
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Tooling is no longer available.
sal
sal
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Bummer
-
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Re: Flatbyrd 2?
I still carry my flat Byrd everyday that I don’t have to go on a plane somewhere. I’ve had to replace the detent ball several times cus it’s worn out over the years. I would love to get a redesigned reissue!
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Hi jOsephchan,
Welcome to our forum.
Maybe some time in the future? But right now we have no plans to redesign and retool up for another flatbyrd.
sal
Welcome to our forum.
Maybe some time in the future? But right now we have no plans to redesign and retool up for another flatbyrd.
sal
- araneae
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Re: Flatbyrd 2?
That's a bummer. I had and used a Flatbyrd in CE while in college. I cut a lot of cardboard stocking retail shelves. I never considered putting it in a wallet, which to me just seems silly. I am a minimalist when it comes to wallet carry, and if you want to use the knife, wallet carry is an inconvenience. I do remember thinking it made a good box cutter, but I wouldn't have minded a pocket clip.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut
The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut
The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
- Josh Crutchley
- Member
- Posts: 1395
- Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:44 am
- Location: Michigan
Re: Flatbyrd 2?
Figured the thread needed a bump after seeing a Flatbyrd on Ebay in the original package.
Edit: found some better pictures.
Edit: found some better pictures.