Through several dialogues on the forums, I have noticed that there are those that like some mass in their knive and some that do not. I would like to share some thoughts on the question and invite the opinions of the fine minds hangin' out here.
When I was younger, I learned that mass had value in things that did not move (home), or moved in only one direction (flywheel). With things that moved, mass became, in most cases an obstacle as the effort to move the greater mass was generally less efficient than moving less mass. I have thought that way in design.
The most important thing about a knife is that you have it with you (on your person) when you need it. With that in mind, the knife that is the least burden to have with you would have greater value than a knife that created a greater burden when carrying.
The 2nd most important thing about a knife is that it delivers the most possible performance when you do need it. If you carry it to cut and it doesn't, then the carrying becomes wasted engery.
Compromise is an amazing concept and within it lies all of the variation between that "knife which weighs nothing and cuts nothing" and the "knife that weighs 4 lbs and mows down trees.
Add in aesthetics, cost, competition and niches, etc and the variation grows.
One of the reasons this question came up is another thread discussing wire clips.
How much performance are you willing to give up to have something that looks good? Considering the experience of using a knife is personal and focused (unless you are sharing with a friend), would you make the same choice if no one else would ever see the knife?
If a design feature "looked" unappealing, but actually performed better, which way would you lean?
If you were accustomed to a little mass, and the ideal product came along that had everything to extreme, but lacked the mass, would you still purchase it?
Keep in mind that we make hi mass models, such as the stailess variations so we recongnize the need/desire. In a balisong, mass has function in the swing, which requires a certain amount of mass.
Which is your preference and why? A healthy dialog might uncover some truths?
sal
Dialogue needed: Mass vs Technology
-
glockman99
- Member
- Posts: 704
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Aberdeen, WA USA
- Contact:
Among my Spydies, I own 2 Delicas...One FRN and one stainless. I like the stainless one the best, eventho the FRN one has "better" steel (VG-10 VS: AUS-6). The stainless model just feels more "solid" to me, and looks "better" than the FRN model.
I guess I'm just one of the "old-timers" who like alittle "heft" in my knives.
Dann Fassnacht Aberdeen, WA glockman99@hotmail.com ICQ: 53675663
Edited by - glockman99 on 5/25/2003 12:46:21 PM
I guess I'm just one of the "old-timers" who like alittle "heft" in my knives.
Dann Fassnacht Aberdeen, WA glockman99@hotmail.com ICQ: 53675663
Edited by - glockman99 on 5/25/2003 12:46:21 PM
-
vampyrewolf
- Member
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
This question has come up 2x in my purchases so far. Cricket and Dragonfly. I bought the Tufram Cricket for the mass. The SS Dragonfly won out for the mass, steel was a bonus.
The small knives (2-3" range) should have some mass given to them, to let you know that you have it. The larger ones have mass just by size alone.
As to looks vs feel/proformance winning out, As we can tell by the general opinion of spyderco on forums(visited by users of all brands) "spyderco is ugly" "buy a sebenza" "buy a custom"... Most users do go for looks over proformance. As spyderco users we give up some of the looks for a load of proformance and comfort in use. It's an aquired taste, just like a fine scotch.
Myself? Technology means nothing if it is not comfortable to use over extended time(20min+ in a session). Mass is good to a point. Looks mean nothing if you give up proformance and price to get it.
My Word, My Honour, is my Life.
The small knives (2-3" range) should have some mass given to them, to let you know that you have it. The larger ones have mass just by size alone.
As to looks vs feel/proformance winning out, As we can tell by the general opinion of spyderco on forums(visited by users of all brands) "spyderco is ugly" "buy a sebenza" "buy a custom"... Most users do go for looks over proformance. As spyderco users we give up some of the looks for a load of proformance and comfort in use. It's an aquired taste, just like a fine scotch.
Myself? Technology means nothing if it is not comfortable to use over extended time(20min+ in a session). Mass is good to a point. Looks mean nothing if you give up proformance and price to get it.
My Word, My Honour, is my Life.
I subscribe to the comfortable carry concept. I carry a Lum Chinese in my hip pocket and a little Kiwi in my side pocket. I hardly know that they are there - but they both cut like crazy for jobs that they are sized for. For example, the Kiwi is excellent for scribing lines on wood (I do a lot of woodwork), as well as many other little cutting tasks. The Lum I don't use as much, but it is very comforting to have along when I am hiking in the woods and get approached by a large dog of dubious intentions, which has happened more than once. It's also great for cutting up boxes, etc., but it is thin, light, and unobtrusive.
I'll take technology over Mass.
The Military is a great example - I love the fact it's lightweight & flat. I wouldn't want dual steel liners for perceived strength.
I don't think technology & performance are mutually exclusive though eg Ferraris <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
The Military is a great example - I love the fact it's lightweight & flat. I wouldn't want dual steel liners for perceived strength.
I don't think technology & performance are mutually exclusive though eg Ferraris <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Hi Sal,
For me, I guess mass is only important to the extent that it is needed. My EDCs reflect this: FRN Endura and Almite Navigator. They fit my hand well (the most endearing feature of most Spydercos), and they are just right for the job to be done. I see no need for a SS Endura-- prettier to look at and play with, but the FRN versiion I use seems to put the needed mass in that great blade, where I can feel it. And the Navigator just feels like an extension of the palm of my hand. To me, Spyderco is all about function, in its purest form.
Some of your blades have too much mass for me...like the original Chinook. If I lived in Alaska splitting logs and fighting bears, I might feel differently.
Your admiration for Colin Chapman (which I share) has to reflect on the idea that form follows function. Lotuses (Loti?) were not massive, powerful cars by a long shot. They had just what they needed, and no more. So do your knives. Keep up the great work.
Dave
For me, I guess mass is only important to the extent that it is needed. My EDCs reflect this: FRN Endura and Almite Navigator. They fit my hand well (the most endearing feature of most Spydercos), and they are just right for the job to be done. I see no need for a SS Endura-- prettier to look at and play with, but the FRN versiion I use seems to put the needed mass in that great blade, where I can feel it. And the Navigator just feels like an extension of the palm of my hand. To me, Spyderco is all about function, in its purest form.
Some of your blades have too much mass for me...like the original Chinook. If I lived in Alaska splitting logs and fighting bears, I might feel differently.
Your admiration for Colin Chapman (which I share) has to reflect on the idea that form follows function. Lotuses (Loti?) were not massive, powerful cars by a long shot. They had just what they needed, and no more. So do your knives. Keep up the great work.
Dave
Sal,
Thanks for the thought provoking thread. I agree that if a knife can be built strong and lightweight then it makes the most sense to do it like this. However, I can't get past the positive psychological effect of a "hefty" knife. As an example, your s/s models really are confidence inspiring to me. In spite of the fact that they are somewhat less grippy and heavier, I adore them.
For me, even an all steel folder does not seem heavy as their 5 or 6 oz weight (ie s/s Police) seems very manageable. For me, slimness of design is far more important that reduced mass.
Thanks, Jeff.
Thanks for the thought provoking thread. I agree that if a knife can be built strong and lightweight then it makes the most sense to do it like this. However, I can't get past the positive psychological effect of a "hefty" knife. As an example, your s/s models really are confidence inspiring to me. In spite of the fact that they are somewhat less grippy and heavier, I adore them.
For me, even an all steel folder does not seem heavy as their 5 or 6 oz weight (ie s/s Police) seems very manageable. For me, slimness of design is far more important that reduced mass.
Thanks, Jeff.
You are asking knife people.Most people that buy spyderco are not knife people.To have a good seller I think it would have to be preformance that looked good.ie.Military.Native.Endura.Delica.
I belive that a Military exactly the same as the current model only sized down 20% would be one of the best EDCs ever made.
I learn something new everyday,even though I don't want to. Jeff
I belive that a Military exactly the same as the current model only sized down 20% would be one of the best EDCs ever made.
I learn something new everyday,even though I don't want to. Jeff
Another thought in the abstract is that a decient amount of mass (not over the top), was a sign of quality. Take the solid brass ornament compaired to the brass coloured thin sheet metal ornament, both would look the same, but the first sign of quality (but not the only one) would be to pick it up to see how solid it was.
For a craft knife I would value lightness over quality of the blade. Light to make very fine and precise cuts
Although when it comes to EDC knives like folders I'm one of those that prefers mass, the feel of something solid and substantial in the hand, but that doesn't neccessarily mean heavy.
With I slightly heavier handle the weight acts as a constant reminder that I have a tool that should be respected in my hand.
I do feel that the basic FRN handles (Delica, Endura, Calypso Jnr) are too light for my preference, although the FRN handles with steel liners and/or steel back spacers (Vesuvious, Meerkat) are very good and have suited me well.
I also think that the heavily textured patterns like those found on the Delica and Endura FRN handles also add to the impression of extreme lightness, almost making the handle feel hollow, and dare I say cheep.
Although I am often a steel snob, I will often sacrifice a certain amount of quality on the blade steel in order to get more of a balance with the handle, often searching out older models like the G-10 Standard, Rookie, Native or Navigator. The only time I have totaly sacrificed my requirement for a handle with heft was the Calypso Jnr Lwt, there was so much right with the other aspects of that knife that it overcame my normal minimum standard for handles.
Like you say Sal, Spyderco does offer stainless steel handles for those that prefer a handle with mass, althouth this is nearly always acompanied by a minimum standard of blade steel. I can understand this to an extent as I also tend to keep my SS knives for fine use and "gentleman wear", but this can be a little frustrating when the handles and blades are at such opposite ends of the scale. The number of times I have longed for a knife were the handle and blade where the quality of each was near the centre of the quality scale.
I think that some of the more unjust critisms of Spyderco knives have come about through the FRN handle series. To people who are unfamiliar with FRN they often seem cheep because they are so much lighter than other "quality" brands and they can't believe that a handle that light could stand up to heavy use.
We are in an unusual time, whereas before mass meant solid construction, with better researched and developed materials that doesn't neccessarily hold true, but until those preconceptions have worn down there will always be some resistance to FRN handles, even from those that prefer a lighter knife.
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
For a craft knife I would value lightness over quality of the blade. Light to make very fine and precise cuts
Although when it comes to EDC knives like folders I'm one of those that prefers mass, the feel of something solid and substantial in the hand, but that doesn't neccessarily mean heavy.
With I slightly heavier handle the weight acts as a constant reminder that I have a tool that should be respected in my hand.
I do feel that the basic FRN handles (Delica, Endura, Calypso Jnr) are too light for my preference, although the FRN handles with steel liners and/or steel back spacers (Vesuvious, Meerkat) are very good and have suited me well.
I also think that the heavily textured patterns like those found on the Delica and Endura FRN handles also add to the impression of extreme lightness, almost making the handle feel hollow, and dare I say cheep.
Although I am often a steel snob, I will often sacrifice a certain amount of quality on the blade steel in order to get more of a balance with the handle, often searching out older models like the G-10 Standard, Rookie, Native or Navigator. The only time I have totaly sacrificed my requirement for a handle with heft was the Calypso Jnr Lwt, there was so much right with the other aspects of that knife that it overcame my normal minimum standard for handles.
Like you say Sal, Spyderco does offer stainless steel handles for those that prefer a handle with mass, althouth this is nearly always acompanied by a minimum standard of blade steel. I can understand this to an extent as I also tend to keep my SS knives for fine use and "gentleman wear", but this can be a little frustrating when the handles and blades are at such opposite ends of the scale. The number of times I have longed for a knife were the handle and blade where the quality of each was near the centre of the quality scale.
I think that some of the more unjust critisms of Spyderco knives have come about through the FRN handle series. To people who are unfamiliar with FRN they often seem cheep because they are so much lighter than other "quality" brands and they can't believe that a handle that light could stand up to heavy use.
We are in an unusual time, whereas before mass meant solid construction, with better researched and developed materials that doesn't neccessarily hold true, but until those preconceptions have worn down there will always be some resistance to FRN handles, even from those that prefer a lighter knife.
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Sal:
Mass, weight of an object, in aerospace and other engineering disciplines it’s a trade-off study. The lighter the vehicle the less energy expended to accelerate it, but the lightness with strength is expensive.
Cost is a major factor, the lighter the material the more it cost. Titanium, aluminum, chrome molly steel. A light weight bicycle for competition racing costs big bucks, but for daily use the old example applies; with a 21 lb. bike you need a 20 lb chain and lock to keep from being stolen and with a 50 lb bike you don’t need to lock it up.
Another example: during the Shuttle development days cost factors dictated using ceramic tiles for the reentry heat protection. If we had known the long term use of the Orbiters and the recycle time & tile repair costs it would have been cost effective to make the entire vehicle out of titanium even though the initial costs would have been a lot higher.
Back to knives: I prefer a solid clip, I think a wire clip looks cheap. But, I also have scratched my car paint getting in the car with a knife clip on the outside of my right pocket.
My latest knives have the wire clip, Assist and Native III, and I have liked the way they clip onto my jeans. I don’t mind mass in my knives, especially if they allow me to one hand open with a flick of the wrist. I like my SS versions and wear the Native SS a lot. I respect Sal’s knife expertise and will buy and continue to support Spyderco with recommendations to friends and my Collection purchases. Who knows, maybe I will get to prefer the wire clip for its utility and protection to my car’s finish. Evaluation is in progress....
<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Collector #047
Mass, weight of an object, in aerospace and other engineering disciplines it’s a trade-off study. The lighter the vehicle the less energy expended to accelerate it, but the lightness with strength is expensive.
Cost is a major factor, the lighter the material the more it cost. Titanium, aluminum, chrome molly steel. A light weight bicycle for competition racing costs big bucks, but for daily use the old example applies; with a 21 lb. bike you need a 20 lb chain and lock to keep from being stolen and with a 50 lb bike you don’t need to lock it up.
Another example: during the Shuttle development days cost factors dictated using ceramic tiles for the reentry heat protection. If we had known the long term use of the Orbiters and the recycle time & tile repair costs it would have been cost effective to make the entire vehicle out of titanium even though the initial costs would have been a lot higher.
Back to knives: I prefer a solid clip, I think a wire clip looks cheap. But, I also have scratched my car paint getting in the car with a knife clip on the outside of my right pocket.
My latest knives have the wire clip, Assist and Native III, and I have liked the way they clip onto my jeans. I don’t mind mass in my knives, especially if they allow me to one hand open with a flick of the wrist. I like my SS versions and wear the Native SS a lot. I respect Sal’s knife expertise and will buy and continue to support Spyderco with recommendations to friends and my Collection purchases. Who knows, maybe I will get to prefer the wire clip for its utility and protection to my car’s finish. Evaluation is in progress....
<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Collector #047
-
java
- Member
- Posts: 2978
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Rosamond - Tropical Paradise without the tropics.....(or the paradise)
Hey!! I am a "knife person" and I collect Spydercos!!!
That doesn’t mean I will be using each one to clear an emergency LZ amid the redwood forests. I buy for function and sometimes that function is to look "purty" and fill the gap in the Spydie line-up. I also buy for performance when I have a specific jobs in mind for knives.
Light mass has little affect on performance and cutting power when it come to finesse jobs and many Spydies excel here. By the same token, my Qs, Crickets, Rs etc will not be called on to perform my camp chores. The Perrin, Temperance, and Morans fare better in the outdoor role, as does the Chinook or Lil Temperance, and with the exception of the Morans they all have increased mass. When you talk of a four pound knife for chopping down trees then by all means mass is important and it will impact performance no matter what. Accelerate the 4 pounds vice the 3+ ounces and calculate the impact force. A good part of this is in the swing. If you start hacking at trees with a Moran Featherweight like you would with a Fisk Bowie or a Buse Combat 9 your gonna hurt yourself. Control and performance will both suffer no matter how good the steel on the lightweight knife.
The importance of mass depends upon the function. Performance, I believe, is therefore dependent on mass as it relates to the specific function. There has to be a balance in ergonomics, function, mass, and steel characteristics to have good performance.
But that’s just my opinion……
In <i><b>Step-by-Step Knifemaking</i></b> David Boye offers this:
<b>"The design of the knife should be such that the "movement" or flow, of lines, mass, and weight, as well as the physical strength of the materials and the keenness of the edgeshould all work together as a "transmitter" of energy. The design is the physical expression of the intended purpose of the knife"</b>
<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - Javanese proverb" </font>
Edited by - java on 5/26/2003 4:10:11 PM
That doesn’t mean I will be using each one to clear an emergency LZ amid the redwood forests. I buy for function and sometimes that function is to look "purty" and fill the gap in the Spydie line-up. I also buy for performance when I have a specific jobs in mind for knives.
Light mass has little affect on performance and cutting power when it come to finesse jobs and many Spydies excel here. By the same token, my Qs, Crickets, Rs etc will not be called on to perform my camp chores. The Perrin, Temperance, and Morans fare better in the outdoor role, as does the Chinook or Lil Temperance, and with the exception of the Morans they all have increased mass. When you talk of a four pound knife for chopping down trees then by all means mass is important and it will impact performance no matter what. Accelerate the 4 pounds vice the 3+ ounces and calculate the impact force. A good part of this is in the swing. If you start hacking at trees with a Moran Featherweight like you would with a Fisk Bowie or a Buse Combat 9 your gonna hurt yourself. Control and performance will both suffer no matter how good the steel on the lightweight knife.
The importance of mass depends upon the function. Performance, I believe, is therefore dependent on mass as it relates to the specific function. There has to be a balance in ergonomics, function, mass, and steel characteristics to have good performance.
But that’s just my opinion……
In <i><b>Step-by-Step Knifemaking</i></b> David Boye offers this:
<b>"The design of the knife should be such that the "movement" or flow, of lines, mass, and weight, as well as the physical strength of the materials and the keenness of the edgeshould all work together as a "transmitter" of energy. The design is the physical expression of the intended purpose of the knife"</b>
<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - Javanese proverb" </font>
Edited by - java on 5/26/2003 4:10:11 PM
-
fredswartz
- Member
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Appalachia
Sal:
An interesting question. I like some heft in my knives and am presently carrying a lightweight Delica. I would much rather prefer a Rookie or a CF Delica because of the increased weight. I don't like the wire clip. I don't like the black clips. My fovorites are the Polished SS clips and especially the ones with all the patent numbers; kind of adds some class. I think that my ideal knife at this point would be a G10 Delica built like a Rookie. I would want one in SE and one in PE. Jerry
An interesting question. I like some heft in my knives and am presently carrying a lightweight Delica. I would much rather prefer a Rookie or a CF Delica because of the increased weight. I don't like the wire clip. I don't like the black clips. My fovorites are the Polished SS clips and especially the ones with all the patent numbers; kind of adds some class. I think that my ideal knife at this point would be a G10 Delica built like a Rookie. I would want one in SE and one in PE. Jerry
Depends on the intended job. My Kiwi rides with me always(except out in the woods, don't want to loose it so I switch it with a ltwt Delica/Calypso/Salsa) because it is sheeple friendly, small and cuts like crazy. I also always carry a larger folder, something with some heft to it. Millie, Gunting, etc even FB's. With no size restrictions here in Canada I can carry big(+3 inches) folders and not worry.
I do carry something big when I go into the woods hunting,fishing, hiking because there are just some jobs that a ltwt folder will not do, even a ltwt FB won't accomplish. I think with my "ability" or "want" to carry 2 knives works for me.
In regards to buying Spydies I buy for what I like. I can't say on looks although that has prompted more research into matl's when I like the looks. One example is the Native. I think it is quite ugly but I have no doubt of its usefullness. Great steel, good ergos and a good handle matl' I have no problems with FRN, my Delica CE has stood by me and the test of time. I don't need a SS Delica because I carry a larger/heavier folder, so ltwt FRN is great for me. Now if only I could afford a CF PE Delica....sweeet!
Excellent topic/thread very thought inducing. Made me feel lucky to be able to carry a large and small folder without hassle. I can see why some of the fellow forumites with size restrictions like the Gunting, Lil Temp etc because they get heft with legal blade lenghts.
I don't know if that answered your question or not. I guess it depends on the individual. Sorry if I have confused you more. Take Care!
"everything else is just a jeep"
I do carry something big when I go into the woods hunting,fishing, hiking because there are just some jobs that a ltwt folder will not do, even a ltwt FB won't accomplish. I think with my "ability" or "want" to carry 2 knives works for me.
In regards to buying Spydies I buy for what I like. I can't say on looks although that has prompted more research into matl's when I like the looks. One example is the Native. I think it is quite ugly but I have no doubt of its usefullness. Great steel, good ergos and a good handle matl' I have no problems with FRN, my Delica CE has stood by me and the test of time. I don't need a SS Delica because I carry a larger/heavier folder, so ltwt FRN is great for me. Now if only I could afford a CF PE Delica....sweeet!
Excellent topic/thread very thought inducing. Made me feel lucky to be able to carry a large and small folder without hassle. I can see why some of the fellow forumites with size restrictions like the Gunting, Lil Temp etc because they get heft with legal blade lenghts.
I don't know if that answered your question or not. I guess it depends on the individual. Sorry if I have confused you more. Take Care!
"everything else is just a jeep"
-
Sword and Shield
- Member
- Posts: 2050
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: USA
I sit quite firmly on the fence with this one. I like "heft", but not "meaningless heft". To elaborate on what is probably a confusing turn of phrase, I'll take a few examples.
No one will argue that a Buck 110 is not "hefty". However, since that heft allows for a strong lock and for a thick enough handle for easy use, it is "good heft". The Chinook also falls into this category.
"Meaningless heft" is where a knife could be much lighter, without sacrificing anything, but the maker doesn't lighten it through sheer laziness. An example of that would be a number of cheap knives, particularily Chinese knockoffs of the 110.
As for the balance of looks and performance, I'll take performance over looks any day. The Ka-Bar is a downright ugly knife, but it simply works. Dressing it up with a mirror finish would better the looks, but would leave it prone to corrosion.
If you have two knives that will perform equally, I would take the more attractive one, as looks are a bonus. However, if the performance differs, I'll take the better performer.
By the time you read this, you'll have already read it.
No one will argue that a Buck 110 is not "hefty". However, since that heft allows for a strong lock and for a thick enough handle for easy use, it is "good heft". The Chinook also falls into this category.
"Meaningless heft" is where a knife could be much lighter, without sacrificing anything, but the maker doesn't lighten it through sheer laziness. An example of that would be a number of cheap knives, particularily Chinese knockoffs of the 110.
As for the balance of looks and performance, I'll take performance over looks any day. The Ka-Bar is a downright ugly knife, but it simply works. Dressing it up with a mirror finish would better the looks, but would leave it prone to corrosion.
If you have two knives that will perform equally, I would take the more attractive one, as looks are a bonus. However, if the performance differs, I'll take the better performer.
By the time you read this, you'll have already read it.
-
sc_rebel1957
- Member
- Posts: 704
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: SOUTH CAROLINA USA
- Contact:
Sal, I echo the sentements of most above.
I buy most of my knives for preformance, the tech factor is important to a point.
Take the Meerkat model, it's a neat package with the Phantom lock feature and I carry it some, altho it stays in my pocket most of the time.
To my way of thinking the G-10 Police with the steel liner was a pinacle of usefulness and heft.
I know the SS models now are being made with more modest steel to keep the price in line for the average customer, it's just for my use the added weight of for instance, the Endura 2 isn't worth giving up premium blade material.
I'd love to see a trend towards more models offering dual SS liners G-10 or CF scales combined with the VG-10/ S30V, or the before mentioned D-2/ M-2 option.
The Military model is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, it's a great knife as is, but add the dual liners and it becomes my idea of the perfect hard use EDC knife.
I'm not saying FRN should be EVER be discoed, far from it I've stated many times that my most carried knife is my tried and true FRN 50/50 Endura.
In fixed blades I think <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> has the most useful designs avalible now, Moran/Perrin are damned hard to beat in the woods!
I don't want the extra weight of a 4 LB sharpened pry bar as seems to be the trend with some compaines today, for chopping I'll carry a axe <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> or better yet a Spydersaw.
great thread BTW. Ron
I buy most of my knives for preformance, the tech factor is important to a point.
Take the Meerkat model, it's a neat package with the Phantom lock feature and I carry it some, altho it stays in my pocket most of the time.
To my way of thinking the G-10 Police with the steel liner was a pinacle of usefulness and heft.
I know the SS models now are being made with more modest steel to keep the price in line for the average customer, it's just for my use the added weight of for instance, the Endura 2 isn't worth giving up premium blade material.
I'd love to see a trend towards more models offering dual SS liners G-10 or CF scales combined with the VG-10/ S30V, or the before mentioned D-2/ M-2 option.
The Military model is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, it's a great knife as is, but add the dual liners and it becomes my idea of the perfect hard use EDC knife.
I'm not saying FRN should be EVER be discoed, far from it I've stated many times that my most carried knife is my tried and true FRN 50/50 Endura.
In fixed blades I think <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> has the most useful designs avalible now, Moran/Perrin are damned hard to beat in the woods!
I don't want the extra weight of a 4 LB sharpened pry bar as seems to be the trend with some compaines today, for chopping I'll carry a axe <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> or better yet a Spydersaw.
great thread BTW. Ron
-
sam the man..
- Member
- Posts: 2936
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
mmmm.. you can't please everyone.. its never easy putting both factor in balance.. in my field experience, I appreciate a bit of 'heft' on my knives.. balance and ease of use is always in question.. you can make pretty knives but they are not always functional.. Personally speaking, most <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s are made with performance in mind and if you get used to the looks, you'll appreciate them as you move along.. As for tech-appeal, I think most <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s performance driven tech-tools in a class of their own.. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Sam
have scars will travel..
Sam
have scars will travel..
I pick knives to use mainly based on how they perform. I really love the Military model, but find it kinda ugly. Doesn't mean that I would hesitate to use it if it was the best knife for the job. Lately I've been looking for "prettier" versions of my carry knives, as long as "pretty" doesn't sacrifice performance. Textured CF is one of my favorite handle materials, it's lightweight, strong, has decent grip if the knife is designed well, and looks good while doing its job. I also like metal handles on a knife, adds a bit of class, but I only like it if it has a performance oriented blade attached to it.
I carry 90% of the time what works, if it's ugly, big, heavy, and gets the job done the way I want it done, it's the one on my hip or in my pocket.
The other 10% of the time I carry what looks good while not sacrificing too much performance. These are carried mainly to more "social" functions, and are my users when people are looking. I also have a workhorse with me, sometimes they look good, sometimes they don't, but when a job needs done that requires it, that's the one that gets used.
I rarely factor cost into my purchases, if I can get a hard use knife that looks good and has top of the line materials, I'll pay for it. I also rarely factor weight/heft into a purchase. I'm a fairly big guy, and a heavy blade isn't a big deal. Heavy folders contribute little to the overall weight of all the stuff I carry on a daily basis. If a good(strong, sturdy, high end blade) knife is light, that's cool too.
I never understood the lightweight crowd when it comes to knives. If a few extra onces really cramps your style, get some pants that fit and a good belt and get over it.
I carry 90% of the time what works, if it's ugly, big, heavy, and gets the job done the way I want it done, it's the one on my hip or in my pocket.
The other 10% of the time I carry what looks good while not sacrificing too much performance. These are carried mainly to more "social" functions, and are my users when people are looking. I also have a workhorse with me, sometimes they look good, sometimes they don't, but when a job needs done that requires it, that's the one that gets used.
I rarely factor cost into my purchases, if I can get a hard use knife that looks good and has top of the line materials, I'll pay for it. I also rarely factor weight/heft into a purchase. I'm a fairly big guy, and a heavy blade isn't a big deal. Heavy folders contribute little to the overall weight of all the stuff I carry on a daily basis. If a good(strong, sturdy, high end blade) knife is light, that's cool too.
I never understood the lightweight crowd when it comes to knives. If a few extra onces really cramps your style, get some pants that fit and a good belt and get over it.
I guess what it comes down to after my above rambling is:
Sturdy, strong, sharp knives(that stay sharp), are what I like. If they weight 3 ounces, look like goddesses, and cost 50 bucks then the company has a great thing on thier hands. If they weight 9 ounces, are ugly as sin, and cost 500 bucks, that works too as far as I'm concerned, and I'll plop down my cash to get it if I want it.
Sturdy, strong, sharp knives(that stay sharp), are what I like. If they weight 3 ounces, look like goddesses, and cost 50 bucks then the company has a great thing on thier hands. If they weight 9 ounces, are ugly as sin, and cost 500 bucks, that works too as far as I'm concerned, and I'll plop down my cash to get it if I want it.
I prefer good technology over mass.
Recently handled a Benchmage Mini-Griptilian, and that was the smoothes opening FRN knife I ever handled.
I really liked the dual short steel liners with the thick (bronze?) washers around the pivot area, and the FRN handle for the rest. A good combination which I would like to see in a Spyderco... (Paramilitary?)
For the rest, I just want them to be 'balanced'. Some thoughts on my current knives:
I found the Military to light for it's size.
My Chinook is nice, but honestly too heavy.
Same for my G-10 Standard, a bit too heavy maybe, would have been nicer with 60% smaller dual steel liners around pivot area and better washers.
My G-10 Navigator could use better washers but is perfect for the rest.
My alum Cricket is a bit too heavy, so the SS cricket is probably perfect.
The lock on my pink FRN cricket doesn't feel/look confident.
So as long as the technology is good, I don't need extra mass.
Ted
Recently handled a Benchmage Mini-Griptilian, and that was the smoothes opening FRN knife I ever handled.
I really liked the dual short steel liners with the thick (bronze?) washers around the pivot area, and the FRN handle for the rest. A good combination which I would like to see in a Spyderco... (Paramilitary?)
For the rest, I just want them to be 'balanced'. Some thoughts on my current knives:
I found the Military to light for it's size.
My Chinook is nice, but honestly too heavy.
Same for my G-10 Standard, a bit too heavy maybe, would have been nicer with 60% smaller dual steel liners around pivot area and better washers.
My G-10 Navigator could use better washers but is perfect for the rest.
My alum Cricket is a bit too heavy, so the SS cricket is probably perfect.
The lock on my pink FRN cricket doesn't feel/look confident.
So as long as the technology is good, I don't need extra mass.
Ted
Hi Sal,
I collect and carry Spyderco folders because I can depend on them giving me what I need when I need it. However I hate the feeling of a knife trying to leave my hand every time I loosen my grip. When working hard with a knife, you have to relax your fingers from time to time. Doing this with a FRN model like the (old model) Rescue or Endura gives me the feeling of the heavy blade tipping the knife.
A heavy blade, IMHO, needs a good ballancing feel in the hand. If you feel the blade is the heaviest you may feel less in control. The FRN line from spyderco is great working knives, but I would prefer a heavier feel to them....
Yours truly,
Vox.
I collect and carry Spyderco folders because I can depend on them giving me what I need when I need it. However I hate the feeling of a knife trying to leave my hand every time I loosen my grip. When working hard with a knife, you have to relax your fingers from time to time. Doing this with a FRN model like the (old model) Rescue or Endura gives me the feeling of the heavy blade tipping the knife.
A heavy blade, IMHO, needs a good ballancing feel in the hand. If you feel the blade is the heaviest you may feel less in control. The FRN line from spyderco is great working knives, but I would prefer a heavier feel to them....
Yours truly,
Vox.