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Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:00 pm
by SpyderEdgeForever
What do you think about this? Obviously animals do not know right from wrong like you humans do, but, to what extent have you noticed their understanding and intelligence reaches?
Is it that they can be trained to mimic people in some areas, and they can store in their minds a large but limited number of words, commands, and phrases, to a certain limit?
I know there have been tests performed that do show incredibly large intelligence in a wide range of creatures such as birds and others.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:41 am
by The Deacon
I don't think "knowing right from wrong" is instinctive in humans, it's something we are taught and is culturally dependent. I think some animals are capable of being taught it, at least on a rudimentary level. As an example, a dog that is "housebroken" has been taught that peeing and pooing in the house is "wrong", while doing those things in certain places outdoors is "right".
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:44 pm
by ThePeacent
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:24 pm
by tvenuto
Humans have an extremely high level of cognitive power, but it doesn’t always serve us well. For instance, we’re routinely outperformed by mice in “risk v reward” experiments. I remember reading about one with two buttons, which give some sort of treat. The first button is always 1 treat per push (expected value of 1). The second button does 1, 2, 3, or 0 treats per push, and it’s set up so the expected value is less than 1. The mice always end up at the 1 per push, which is the more efficient strategy. Humans keep thinking that the variable one will pay off because they disproportionately remember getting that rare 3.
In other realms animals might actually have higher levels of understanding than humans. The brain of the Orca has a disproportionately large “social” area, and it’s postulated that they have a far more complex understanding of relationships and social hierarchies than we do.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:28 pm
by tvenuto
I guess I’m saying that although humans have some very strong mental strengths, it’s misguided to assume we’re superior in all ways.
For an awesome satirical look at this concept, I recommend the phenomenal Kurt Vonnegut book Galapagos.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:08 pm
by The Meat man
The Deacon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:41 am
I don't think "knowing right from wrong" is instinctive in humans, it's something we are taught and is culturally dependent. I think some animals are capable of being taught it, at least on a rudimentary level. As an example, a dog that is "housebroken" has been taught that peeing and pooing in the house is "wrong", while doing those things in certain places outdoors is "right".
Interesting points, Deacon.
However, I would argue that even a house-trained pet still does not know the difference between "right" and "wrong". Not in any moral sense, that is. Don't they obey our commands out of either fear of punishment or anticipation of reward?
I think the concept of morality is simply not found in the animal kingdom. Only humans seem to have an innate understanding of something being morally "right" or morally "wrong". We may disagree about what constitutes right and wrong, but the basic
concept of morality seems to be unique and universal to humans.
Some animals do possess a very high level of intelligence, which almost seems to rival that of humans sometimes. I've heard that ravens can be very intelligent and quick to learn complex puzzles.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:17 pm
by The Deacon
The Meat man wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:08 pm
The Deacon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:41 am
I don't think "knowing right from wrong" is instinctive in humans, it's something we are taught and is culturally dependent. I think some animals are capable of being taught it, at least on a rudimentary level. As an example, a dog that is "housebroken" has been taught that peeing and pooing in the house is "wrong", while doing those things in certain places outdoors is "right".
Interesting points, Deacon.
However, I would argue that even a house-trained pet still does not know the difference between "right" and "wrong". Not in any moral sense, that is. Don't they obey our commands out of either fear of punishment or anticipation of reward?
I think the concept of morality is simply not found in the animal kingdom. Only humans seem to have an innate understanding of something being morally "right" or morally "wrong". We may disagree about what constitutes right and wrong, but the basic
concept of morality seems to be unique and universal to humans.
Some animals do possess a very high level of intelligence, which almost seems to rival that of humans sometimes. I've heard that ravens can be very intelligent and quick to learn complex puzzles.
The fact that both individuals and cultures may (and do) disagree about what right and wrong leads me to think "morality" is just another way of saying "if you get caught doing something your group considers unacceptable, you will get punished". Whether or not certain parts of our bodies must be covered in public, where it's acceptable to urinate and defecate, at what age and with whom you are permitted to have sex, whether taking something that does not belong to us is borrowing or capturing or stealing, whether we can own slaves, under what circumstances (if any) killing is justified, all these things vary from one culture to another. I can't think of a single thing that's been universally considered "immoral" from the time humans lived in caves to today.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:26 pm
by Bloke
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:29 pm
by The Meat man
Bloke, you do not disappoint. Ha ha! :D
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:19 pm
by MichaelScott
Bloke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:26 pm
Strangely appropriate since we share about 97% of our genes.
Chimps are the closest to humans in cognitive power. And they can’t even make simple stone tools. The rest of the animal kingdom goes downhill from there.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:53 pm
by MacLaren
Bloke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:26 pm
Lmao! Awesome as usual Bloke!!
Keep up the good work mate!
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:11 am
by The Mastiff
Animals understand more than they are given credit for IME. The animals that have accompanied humans over the millennia like goats, dogs, etc. have adapted very, very well. How much they understand of our language depends on how much time you spend with them but all will pick up moods and even to an extent what you want from them from your facial expressions and body language. Some dogs really excel at that and a good leader ( owner) can control them without much in the way of command. Some dogs anticipate so well it seems like they are psychic. I've seen studies that state some dogs understand the same amount of words as a 6 year old child. My mastiff Finn was like that. My terrier not so much.
Next time you go out for a walk note how the birds, squirrels and other critters are always looking you dead in your eyes. What does that tell you about them? Prey animals are especially attuned to your whole body language even if they are used to people.
Joe
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:51 am
by MacLaren
The Mastiff wrote: ↑Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:11 am
Animals understand more than they are given credit for IME. The animals that have accompanied humans over the millennia like goats, dogs, etc. have adapted very, very well. How much they understand of our language depends on how much time you spend with them but all will pick up moods and even to an extent what you want from them from your facial expressions and body language. Some dogs really excel at that and a good leader ( owner) can control them without much in the way of command. Some dogs anticipate so well it seems like they are psychic. I've seen studies that state some dogs understand the same amount of words as a 6 year old child. My mastiff Finn was like that. My terrier not so much.
Next time you go out for a walk note how the birds, squirrels and other critters are always looking you dead in your eyes. What does that tell you about them? Prey animals are especially attuned to your whole body language even if they are used to people.
Joe
Yes. In all seriousness, ya darn right they know more than they are given credit for. My daddy always told me that too.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:36 pm
by ugaarguy
SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
What do you think about this? Obviously animals do not know right from wrong like you humans do, but, to what extent have you noticed their understanding and intelligence reaches?
Is it that they can be trained to mimic people in some areas, and they can store in their minds a large but limited number of words, commands, and phrases, to a certain limit?
I know there have been tests performed that do show incredibly large intelligence in a wide range of creatures such as birds and others.
I think rather than speculating, that it might be best to read the scientific literature on the various classes / orders / families / genera you're interested in. As others have already noted, there are various types of intelligence. Even we humans vary in our areas of intelligence between individuals.
The Deacon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:41 am
I don't think "knowing right from wrong" is instinctive in humans, it's something we are taught and is culturally dependent. I think some animals are capable of being taught it, at least on a rudimentary level. As an example, a dog that is "housebroken" has been taught that peeing and pooing in the house is "wrong", while doing those things in certain places outdoors is "right".
Actually humans do intrinsically know right from wrong. That's our conscience. The exception is Psychopaths, who totally lack any conscience. Sociopaths have extremely weak consciences. Both lack empathy. As reflected in the DSM V, the understanding is shifting to these being disorders of varying degrees falling under the broad spectrum of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (much like autism and Asperger's are now evaluated on the broad Autism Spectrum.)
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 am
by The Deacon
ugaarguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:36 pm
The Deacon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:41 am
I don't think "knowing right from wrong" is instinctive in humans, it's something we are taught and is culturally dependent. I think some animals are capable of being taught it, at least on a rudimentary level. As an example, a dog that is "housebroken" has been taught that peeing and pooing in the house is "wrong", while doing those things in certain places outdoors is "right".
Actually humans do intrinsically know right from wrong. That's our conscience. The exception is Psychopaths, who totally lack any conscience. Sociopaths have extremely weak consciences. Both lack empathy. As reflected in the DSM V, the understanding is shifting to these being disorders of varying degrees falling under the broad spectrum of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (much like autism and Asperger's are now evaluated on the broad Autism Spectrum.)
I'm still not able to think of a single thing that's been recognized as "wrong" by all societies through all of recorded history. That, as I stated earlier, makes me think "morality" is just another way of saying "if you get caught doing something your group considers unacceptable, you will get punished". As for psychopaths and sociopaths, is it that they "don't know" what their society considers right from what their society considers wrong, or just that they don't care.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:32 am
by The Meat man
The Deacon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 am
ugaarguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:36 pm
The Deacon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:41 am
I don't think "knowing right from wrong" is instinctive in humans, it's something we are taught and is culturally dependent. I think some animals are capable of being taught it, at least on a rudimentary level. As an example, a dog that is "housebroken" has been taught that peeing and pooing in the house is "wrong", while doing those things in certain places outdoors is "right".
Actually humans do intrinsically know right from wrong. That's our conscience. The exception is Psychopaths, who totally lack any conscience. Sociopaths have extremely weak consciences. Both lack empathy. As reflected in the DSM V, the understanding is shifting to these being disorders of varying degrees falling under the broad spectrum of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (much like autism and Asperger's are now evaluated on the broad Autism Spectrum.)
I'm still not able to think of a single thing that's been recognized as "wrong" by all societies through all of recorded history. That, as I stated earlier, makes me think "morality" is just another way of saying "if you get caught doing something your group considers unacceptable, you will get punished". As for psychopaths and sociopaths, is it that they "don't know" what their society considers right from what their society considers wrong, or just that they don't care.
All humans recognize that murder is wrong. All humans recognize that lying is wrong. On a deep level, humans recognize that it is wrong to do these things. This is why we feel the need to justify ourselves when we commit these acts.
We get upset when someone lies to us. Why? Because even if we are guilty of it ourselves, we know it is wrong to lie.
Furthermore, it goes far deeper than just knowing superficially what is right and what is wrong. As I said before, the very
concept of right and wrong is unique to humans. The very fact that we can intelligently discuss these issues reveals an underlying understanding of morality which is universal across cultures. For example, we could take an island cannibal, who has been raised a cannibal his entire life. It's all he's ever known. However, we could still sit down with him and discuss the morality (or immorality) of eating other people.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:50 am
by The Deacon
The Meat man wrote: ↑Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:32 am
All humans recognize that murder is wrong. All humans recognize that lying is wrong. On a deep level, humans recognize that it is wrong to do these things. This is why we feel the need to justify ourselves when we commit these acts. We get upset when someone lies to us. Why? Because even if we are guilty of it ourselves, we know it is wrong to lie.
Except when we are killing for a cause we believe in. For example, I doubt most Muslims think the terrorists who crashed into the WTC and Pentagon did something wrong and I doubt someone who is "pro choice" considers abortion to be wrong while those who are "pro life" consider the fetus to be the epitome of "innocent life".
As for lying, I'd say that most people love to be lied to, as long as the lies make them feel better about themselves.
The Meat man wrote: ↑Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:32 am
Furthermore, it goes far deeper than just knowing superficially what is right and what is wrong. As I said before, the very
concept of right and wrong is unique to humans. The very fact that we can intelligently discuss these issues reveals an underlying understanding of morality which is universal across cultures. For example, we could take an island cannibal, who has been raised a cannibal his entire life. It's all he's ever known. However, we could still sit down with him and discuss the morality (or immorality) of eating other people.
That last seems to prove my point. The cannibal has been raised to believe that eating other people is acceptable, at least under certain circumstances. You've been raised in a society that considers actual cannibalism to be even less acceptable than murder while practicing symbolic cannibalism in church. So sure, you could discuss it, but you're not going to start eating your enemies, or the brains of your dead relatives, and he's not going to start substituting bread and wine for the real deal.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:11 am
by tvenuto
I don’t see how you can assert that the concept of right and wrong is unique to humans. I gave the example of the orca having a more developed “relationship” part of the brain, which seems to indicate that social/familial hierarchies are very important to them. The do group hunt, after all. Thus, how are we to say that the group wouldn’t consider it “wrong” to say, swim on the left side of a superior, and punish the transgressor in some way? We have no idea.
Largely I agree with deacon, right and wrong are concepts that may be innate, but what constitutes an infraction is not. I would think that any social animal would have to have some drive not to transgress on the rules of their group, which I think would be fair to call “an understanding of right and wrong.” If there was no such drive, the “prisoners dilemma” would turn everyone cutthroat, and the animals would cease to use a cooperative survival strategy.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:24 am
by MichaelScott
There is no evidence that humans, or animals, have an innate sense of morals, that we are wired to understand that a behavior is to be put into a category of right or wrong, good or bad. These are culturally defined attributes of behaviors and, as previously pointed out here, vary across cultures and time.
Chimpanzees hunt, kill, tear apart and eat other chimpanzees. Do they consider that to be right or wrong? I think they don’t consider it at all.
Re: Animal Understanding: What level is it compared to humans?
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:01 am
by shunsui
https://youtu.be/T_AHCm0urak
