S110V vs. S90V

[m4d]

Hi everyone. Are there any advantages of S110V over S90V? Also how does M390 compare? Thanks.

[bearfacedkiller]

//forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=67728" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are lots more threads like this if you search.

[sbaker345]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

[Cujobob]

I believe m390 is supposed to be tougher while also having good edge retention, but I've read of many people having issues with chipping out. S110V and S90V are very similar to one another with 110 having 20 more.

[SpyderNut]

Good timing on this post. I just ordered a length of S90V yesterday in .124" thickness for a new knife I'm making. Should be a lot of fun to work with. :D

[Chum]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

Interesting. So you can notice a difference when using a knife made of S110v vs. one of s90v?

Do your s90v and s110v knives have the same geometry? What differences do you notice?

[HarleyXJGuy]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

Interesting. So you can notice a difference when using a knife made of S110v vs. one of s90v?

I am betting no. Maybe one might be a lkttle more chip prone but a difference in edge retention with out a well laid out test would be near impossible to notice.

Could be way off base though since I.still have no S90V. Sigh.

[Cliff Stamp]

I believe m390 is supposed to be tougher while also having good edge retention, but I've read of many people having issues with chipping out.

m390 isn't tougher than S90V, people often assume it is because it has less wear resistance (when measured against silicon carbide), however it isn't the case :

- http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/D ... _19432.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Steels like m390, Elmax, etc. which have a high volume of chromium carbides will suffer a reduced toughness/wear resistance ratio. There is a lot of information on this in the Crucible patents. The general idea is to use the hardest carbides so as to produce a given wear resistance with the lowest carbide volume and thus produce the highest toughness.

As for S90V and S110V, these steels are so similar that even the material properties will overlap unless the precision is very high in both how they are hardened and how the properties are measured. The main benefits of S110V are in manufacturing for example its use of alloying elements to keep ferrite out of the final matrix.

As an example of the actual material properties, this is the pin on disk wear resistance :

S90V : 2150/975 F : 61.5 HRC : 37 mg
S110V : 2150/975 F : 62.5 HRC : 34 mg

That difference is within the tolerance range of measurement (~5%) and thus with the exact same hardening, using ASTM lab measurements they don't produce a difference in wear resistance. There is no way you could see any difference in actual use which is dependent on the steel. If you did see a difference it would be because one knife had a different shape or one wasn't hardened properly.

[HarleyXJGuy]

That difference is within the tolerance range of measurement (~5%) and thus with the exact same hardening, using ASTM lab measurements they don't produce a difference in wear resistance. There is no way you could see any difference in actual use which is dependent on the steel. If you did see a difference it would be because one knife had a different shape or one wasn't hardened properly.

Exactly what I said but with real data and the like.

[Ankerson]

They are generally in the same category for the most part until the hardness range gets above the 61.5 - 62 HRC range then S110V has the advantage in edge retention in testing due to the higher obtainable hardness range. That's taking into count proper heat treating.

But for the most part people will not see S90V over 61 HRC unless it's on a custom, talking production blades there will be and is a rather large difference in testing in S90V and S110V in knives with like geometry (Same models and maker) due to the hardness differences.

Spyderco for example tends to run S90V in the 60 HRC range will S110 is generally in the 62-63 range, that's from actual blades that have been tested for hardness. As everything is subject to change at any time in production knives.

[sbaker345]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

Interesting. So you can notice a difference when using a knife made of S110v vs. one of s90v?

I am betting no. Maybe one might be a lkttle more chip prone but a difference in edge retention with out a well laid out test would be near impossible to notice.

Could be way off base though since I.still have no S90V. Sigh.

[sbaker345]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

Interesting. So you can notice a difference when using a knife made of S110v vs. one of s90v?

I am betting no. Maybe one might be a lkttle more chip prone but a difference in edge retention with out a well laid out test would be near impossible to notice.

Could be way off base though since I.still have no S90V. Sigh.

You'd be hard pressed to see a difference in edge retention although ankerson has seen one , but s110v is usually ran harder and for me is more resistance to deformation and damage.

[Evil D]

.45 acp vs. 9mm, give or take.

[m4d]

Thanks everyone.

[Chum]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

Interesting. So you can notice a difference when using a knife made of S110v vs. one of s90v?

I am betting no. Maybe one might be a lkttle more chip prone but a difference in edge retention with out a well laid out test would be near impossible to notice.

Could be way off base though since I.still have no S90V. Sigh.

You'd be hard pressed to see a difference in edge retention although ankerson has seen one , but s110v is usually ran harder and for me is more resistance to deformation and damage.

I'm not sure what "s110v is usually ran harder and for me" means. Does that mean you use your s110v knife in a harder way than your s90v knife?

I really have a hard time believing anyone can notice any difference between these two steels outside of very strict testing. A comparison between a .45 and 9mm cartridge seems way off. Those are vastly different cartridges being compared to very similar steels.

[Evil D]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

Interesting. So you can notice a difference when using a knife made of S110v vs. one of s90v?

I am betting no. Maybe one might be a lkttle more chip prone but a difference in edge retention with out a well laid out test would be near impossible to notice.

Could be way off base though since I.still have no S90V. Sigh.

You'd be hard pressed to see a difference in edge retention although ankerson has seen one , but s110v is usually ran harder and for me is more resistance to deformation and damage.

I'm not sure what "s110v is usually ran harder and for me" means. Does that mean you use your s110v knife in a harder way than your s90v knife?

I really have a hard time believing anyone can notice any difference between these two steels outside of very strict testing. A comparison between a .45 and 9mm cartridge seems way off. Those are vastly different cartridges being compared to very similar steels.

Well, they aren't very far off if you DO go through those strict tests. But, it was meant to be more of an exaggeration/joke than anything.

I will say that 110 has proven to be WAY tougher than 90 for me, by leaps and bounds.

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm not sure what "s110v is usually ran harder and for me" means.

He means makers/manufacturers typically have S110V harder than S90V knives and that he finds certain differences in them.

The thing about hardening and hardness in steels is that there is a tremendous amount of misinformation as much of it comes from makers who have little knowledge of metallurgy and/or are often saying things in a self-promotional way. For example S90V was criticized as being hard to HT because it demanded very high temperatures. This was because at that time many of the knife making furnaces used had max temperatures of 2000 F and knife makers were actually air hardening stainless steels and not consistently using extended quenches. This combination of factors significantly limited hardness and so S30V was designed with one of the constraints being to harden fully/optimally around 1950F which is a common temperature for stainless.

However those days are many years past. Paragon for example who is one of the main sources for knife making furnaces sells even their very basic models with operating temperatures up to 2350. This isn't for S90V type steels, it is for HSS which demand much higher temperatures still and people want to use them and harden them. HSS are much more demanding to harden than S90V type steels and have such high alloy contents that the austenite won't fully transform no matter how fast you quench and even if you use deep soak full cryogenics. They have to be hot tempered to move the alloy out of the martensite which transforms in the quench after the tempering.

Aside from the tempering temperature, most knife makers now know you have to do accelerated quenches and will use positive pressure gasses or better use oil or similar. They also know the importance of extended quenches depending on if they are or are not hot tempering. Combining all of these getting very high hardness on stainless steels is no long any difficulty and you can even just request it in large production batches. John Davis started his first production run of S90V knives and had them at 62 HRC from Peter's and I posted how to do that in the above which comes right from the patent information with a very easy to complete cycle.

It is similar in regards to grinding. It used to be very hard to grind high carbide steels because they were so much harder than common alumina which is the main belt abrasive. However this is also no longer true. Modern SG abrasives such as Norton's Blaze, or better yet the Cubitron or even the next generation worm-type SG abrasives have huge g-numbers (grinding efficiency) because of various aspects (extreme toughness, self-fracture wear, shaped abrasives leading to consistent cutting with wear, etc.). As knife makers are also starting to realize now the value of coolant, thanks to people like Roman Landes, this also has taken belt life a huge jump upwards. Proper coolant and proper abrasive selection and belt speed can literally make 10 to 100X the difference in belt life.

--

As for the difference in the steels, I posted the abrasive wear difference in the above. An ASTM test carried out by qualified metallurgists/technicians can't pick out a statistical difference. Good luck trying to do that by hand, you are claiming to have better precision slicing up some rope than a tasks specific machine measurement with also ISO grade material and carefully applied force/speed parameters.

[Ankerson]

S110v is generally better in every way except ease of sharpening in my experience.

Interesting. So you can notice a difference when using a knife made of S110v vs. one of s90v?

I am betting no. Maybe one might be a lkttle more chip prone but a difference in edge retention with out a well laid out test would be near impossible to notice.

Could be way off base though since I.still have no S90V. Sigh.

You'd be hard pressed to see a difference in edge retention although ankerson has seen one , but s110v is usually ran harder and for me is more resistance to deformation and damage.

I'm not sure what "s110v is usually ran harder and for me" means. Does that mean you use your s110v knife in a harder way than your s90v knife?

I really have a hard time believing anyone can notice any difference between these two steels outside of very strict testing. A comparison between a .45 and 9mm cartridge seems way off. Those are vastly different cartridges being compared to very similar steels.

It's been VERY noticeable for me in NORMAL kitchen use between S90V and S110V, that's S90V at 60 HRC and S110V at 65 HRC, both knives are .006" behind the edge.

That's over a long period of time.

I touch up when the knives don't pass my simple sharpness test, if the knife will slice though a paper towel length wise while holding it without tearing it then it's sharp enough. If not then it gets touched up, that's for the knives I use in the kitchen.

Steels like S110V, S35VN and S90V last for a pretty long time compared to the more normal steels like MBS-26 etc.

[Chum]

It's been VERY noticeable for me in NORMAL kitchen use between S90V and S110V, that's S90V at 60 HRC and S110V at 65 HRC, both knives are .006" behind the edge.

Is that a fair comparison of the steel then, given the 5 HRC points?

That's over a long period of time.

I touch up when the knives don't pass my simple sharpness test, if the knife will slice though a paper towel length wise while holding it without tearing it then it's sharp enough. If not then it gets touched up, that's for the knives I use in the kitchen.

Steels like S110V, S35VN and S90V last for a pretty long time compared to the more normal steels like MBS-26 etc.

I know you carefully test various steels, but this doesn't sound like a testing scenario. This sounds like during regular kitchen use you can clearly see a difference in edge retention between the 60HRC s90v and the 65 HRC s110v, correct?

Personally, it would have to be a flat out enormous difference in edge retention for me to notice one steel getting duller than another from kitchen use. I don't make the same meals on a regular basis, and even the food I do chop up can be different from one onion to the next (ie. do the onions I bought from Safeway for my carbonara effect the edge of my chef's knives the same way the onions I bought from Whole Foods, two weeks latter, for my grilled burgers?)

I suppose if I cut up vegetables on a ceramic plate I could see a rapid dulling of the edge... actually I do this sometimes when I am lazy and don't feel like washing up the chopping board, but I use my old Tramontina serrated steak knives for that.

[Ankerson]

It's been VERY noticeable for me in NORMAL kitchen use between S90V and S110V, that's S90V at 60 HRC and S110V at 65 HRC, both knives are .006" behind the edge.

Is that a fair comparison of the steel then, given the 5 HRC points?

That's over a long period of time.

I touch up when the knives don't pass my simple sharpness test, if the knife will slice though a paper towel length wise while holding it without tearing it then it's sharp enough. If not then it gets touched up, that's for the knives I use in the kitchen.

Steels like S110V, S35VN and S90V last for a pretty long time compared to the more normal steels like MBS-26 etc.

I know you carefully test various steels, but this doesn't sound like a testing scenario. This sounds like during regular kitchen use you can clearly see a difference in edge retention between the 60HRC s90v and the 65 HRC s110v, correct?

Personally, it would have to be a flat out enormous difference in edge retention for me to notice one steel getting duller than another from kitchen use. I don't make the same meals on a regular basis, and even the food I do chop up can be different from one onion to the next (ie. do the onions I bought from Safeway for my carbonara effect the edge of my chef's knives the same way the onions I bought from Whole Foods, two weeks latter, for my grilled burgers?)

I suppose if I cut up vegetables on a ceramic plate I could see a rapid dulling of the edge... actually I do this sometimes when I am lazy and don't feel like washing up the chopping board, but I use my old Tramontina serrated steak knives for that.

It was/is exactly what I said it was, nothing more than that..... Typical kitchen use over long periods of time...... YEARS..... That's real world use.

I have actually seen large differences in my testing also, again with large differences in hardness with close to or the same geometry.

The difference in steels like S90V, S110V, S35VN and the normal steels is pretty amusing really when you think about it. :D

That's when they are directly compared, well at least in my own use and testing anyway.

The only reason I am even dealing with the more normal steels these days at all is for the product testing that I am currently involved with. So the differences have become even more apparent to me than before. I threw out all of my garbage knives I used in the kitchen before so the ones I have now are the Spyderco kitchen knives and the customs that I use in the kitchen. I noticed how pathetic those knives really were once I really started paying attention and testing, so in the garbage bin they went.