Practical vs. Tactical?

[The Deacon]

Seems like most of us here got past our Rambo/Gil Hibben phases some time in our teens...

Or that we are at least able to differentiate between things that appeal to our "inner 13 year old" and those we carry as practical cutting tools.

No Rambo stuff here, but mine did cause me to purchase a Gil Hibben "Expendables Bowie" a while ago :o and I've been know to refer to my MT OTF's as Jack in the Boxes for grown ups. :D

[MichaelScott]

As formally applied to knife design, it would be specific for a military use. Combat is only a small part of military activity. As a multi-use tactical knife, the Assist would be hard to beat.

tac·ti·cal
ˈtaktək(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: tactical
of, relating to, or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end.
"as a tactical officer in the field he had no equal"
(of bombing or weapons) done or for use in immediate support of military or naval operations.
(of a person or their actions) showing adroit planning; aiming at an end beyond the immediate action.
"in a tactical retreat, she moved into a hotel with her daughters"
synonyms: calculated, planned, strategic; More
Origin

late 16th century (in the sense ‘relating to military or naval tactics’): from Greek taktikos (see tactic) + -al.

[wrdwrght]

Back in '68, Gerber made pretty good knives and I bought their Mark I dagger in anticipation of a tour in Vietnam.

As an Artillery officer expecting work as a forward observer, I figured I could use the knife for quiet work along the perimeter of Night Defensive Positions...

So, there I was in the Officers Club at battalion headquarters waiting for my assignment. Wanting to shorten the leather thong that tied the scabbard to my leg, I looped it over the dagger's dull-by-design edge and had to apply such a pulling force that that the dagger's tip knicked the sclera of my eyeball.

I'll leave this particular embarrassment there.

Suffice to say, I took a strategic decision to dump this ridiculously limited "tactical" knife and get a truly practical Ka-Bar that I could still use in the dark.

[Ankerson]

Back in '68, Gerber made pretty good knives and I bought their Mark I dagger in anticipation of a tour in Vietnam.

As an Artillery officer expecting work as a forward observer, I figured I could use the knife for quiet work along the perimeter of Night Defensive Positions...

So, there I was in the Officers Club at battalion headquarters waiting for my assignment. Wanting to shorten the leather thong that tied the scabbard to my leg, I looped it over the dagger's dull-by-design edge and had to apply such a pulling force that that the dagger's tip knicked the sclera of my eyeball.

I'll leave this particular embarrassment there.

Suffice to say, I took a strategic decision to dump this ridiculously limited "tactical" knife and get a truly practical Ka-Bar that I could still use in the dark.

Yeah the Ka-Bar or one of the Combat Randalls would be the ones to stick with I think. :)

That said I carried a Ka-Bar for the 4 years I was in the USMC.

[awa54]

I'll confess that I have a lust for the updated Ka-Bar USN Mark I, with the polymer handle and all black finish... not for the military look, but for the size, blade shape and materials, it ought to be an excellent small fixed blade utility.

OK, it does look extra cool in all black...

[RexGig0]

You must be the same Rex from TPI? Good bumping into you here sir

Yes. Good to see you here.

I have been unable to log-in at TPI for a while, due to "mis-remembering" the password. I cannot request a password re-set, because I no longer use the e-mail that I used when I joined. Perhaps I will, eventually, recall the correct password. If not, I will start a new account there.

[RexGig0]

Back in '68, Gerber made pretty good knives and I bought their Mark I dagger in anticipation of a tour in Vietnam.

As an Artillery officer expecting work as a forward observer, I figured I could use the knife for quiet work along the perimeter of Night Defensive Positions...

So, there I was in the Officers Club at battalion headquarters waiting for my assignment. Wanting to shorten the leather thong that tied the scabbard to my leg, I looped it over the dagger's dull-by-design edge and had to apply such a pulling force that that the dagger's tip knicked the sclera of my eyeball.

I'll leave this particular embarrassment there.

Suffice to say, I took a strategic decision to dump this ridiculously limited "tactical" knife and get a truly practical Ka-Bar that I could still use in the dark.

Yes, the Gerber Mark I dagger is a true single-purpose dagger, really only useful for stabbing. I figure the grind and edge geometry were chosen to make sure it does not break when striking bone or other hard objects, at the expense of cutting ability. I seriously considered a Mark I to use as a true niche knife, to stab into, um, specific targets of a seriously stronger person seriously trying to snatch my duty pistol. Before I managed to figure a way to carry it concealed, yet readily accessible, I became distracted by other things. (Perhaps it would be best to admit I have aged-out of being really suited to patrol work?)

A blade which can cut, as well as thrust, allows more "tactical" options, plus being better for general utility.

[JD Spydo]

This is a very interesting and thought provoking thread and I've enjoyed reading it. It's actually a subject I've thought about a lot in the past few years. Because when it comes to tool use of any type I'm extremely bent on overall function and the quality of the tool whether it be a knife, an axe, a wood chisel, a straight razor or whatever?

One of my very favorite Spyderco models of all time is considered a tactical design at it's highest level>> I'm speaking of the C-60 Massad Ayoob model that has been one of my ultimate favorites since the day I bought my first one back around 2002 when the first generation of the original Almite, VG-10 Ayoob models came to market. Since then I've scored three of the newer, more recent Sprint, G-10 handled versions and find that variant to be a super improvement over a knife that I already thought to be a genius design.

What I'm getting at is the Ayoob model as well as two other Spyderco models I own truly give you the best of both worlds when it comes to the proposed "Practical vs Tactical" concept of discussion. I've found the C-60 Ayoob to be a super functional cutting tool for EDC uses of all types. But I also find it to be one blade I'm confident in just in case I ever needed it for self defense (which I truly hope never comes about).

I truly believe that the Ayoob and C-36 Military models both to have functional and tactical aspects both. The one Szabo model impresses me to have those desirable aspects as well.

[demoncase]

Back in '68, Gerber made pretty good knives and I bought their Mark I dagger in anticipation of a tour in Vietnam.

As an Artillery officer expecting work as a forward observer, I figured I could use the knife for quiet work along the perimeter of Night Defensive Positions...

So, there I was in the Officers Club at battalion headquarters waiting for my assignment. Wanting to shorten the leather thong that tied the scabbard to my leg, I looped it over the dagger's dull-by-design edge and had to apply such a pulling force that that the dagger's tip knicked the sclera of my eyeball.

I'll leave this particular embarrassment there.

Suffice to say, I took a strategic decision to dump this ridiculously limited "tactical" knife and get a truly practical Ka-Bar that I could still use in the dark.

Yes, the Gerber Mark I dagger is a true single-purpose dagger, really only useful for stabbing. I figure the grind and edge geometry were chosen to make sure it does not break when striking bone or other hard objects, at the expense of cutting ability. I seriously considered a Mark I to use as a true niche knife, to stab into, um, specific targets of a seriously stronger person seriously trying to snatch my duty pistol. Before I managed to figure a way to carry it concealed, yet readily accessible, I became distracted by other things. (Perhaps it would be best to admit I have aged-out of being really suited to patrol work?)

A blade which can cut, as well as thrust, allows more "tactical" options, plus being better for general utility.

I bought (and still own) a 1980s Gerber Mk2 when they were still 'proper'- it's even more 'finely focused' than the Mk1

Why?....Because....Because....It's in 'Aliens' that's why. :D

Fun Fact on the Mk2- When they started selling them in the PX during the Vietnam War as a 'fighting knife', the Quartermaster General refused to carry them as they were 'distasteful for a US soldier to carry'. Gerber added the serrations on the back half and started selling it as a 'survival tool' and they were suddenly OK to sell in the PX.

A little old dagger was "distasteful" in a war that brought the world's notice to Claymore mines, Napalm, Free Fire Zones, Rolling Thunder and Agent Orange....Go figure.

[wrdwrght]

A little old dagger was "distasteful" in a war that brought the world's notice to Claymore mines, Napalm, Free Fire Zones, Rolling Thunder and Agent Orange....Go figure.

Thanks for your insight, Demon. I was oblivious at the time, but I've certainly come to regard the capacity for irony and hypocrisy in American policy as something like boundless...

[Gaston444]

Back in '68, Gerber made pretty good knives and I bought their Mark I dagger in anticipation of a tour in Vietnam.

As an Artillery officer expecting work as a forward observer, I figured I could use the knife for quiet work along the perimeter of Night Defensive Positions...

So, there I was in the Officers Club at battalion headquarters waiting for my assignment. Wanting to shorten the leather thong that tied the scabbard to my leg, I looped it over the dagger's dull-by-design edge and had to apply such a pulling force that that the dagger's tip knicked the sclera of my eyeball.

I'll leave this particular embarrassment there.

Suffice to say, I took a strategic decision to dump this ridiculously limited "tactical" knife and get a truly practical Ka-Bar that I could still use in the dark.

The Gerber Mark was introduced in 1976. It was actually the only Gerber knife I am aware of fully designed by Al Mar.

The Mk I knife sheath never had a leather leg tie of any sort. While not as sharp as the originally more flared Mk II tip, Gerber daggers were always the sharpest production daggers because they were all very near zero edged, with washed-out secondary v edges, which on some examples made the tip fragile ...

Yours could only be a Mark II in 1968, and the tip was usually quite thin and sharp, though leather ties can be tough to tip-cut for ANY knife... Old Gerber daggers as delivered do not always fit the dull dagger cutting edge stereotype (Neither did similarly thin edged Randall Model 2s, or the more recent Beauchop daggers)

Sharpness allows daggers to cut outward after a Stab, and Fairbairn always emphasized sharpness...

Gaston

[Ankerson]

Some of the more famous real combat knives, I am talking about knives that saw or see real combat and actually had Armed Forces input on design and materials are Randall Knives.

Especially Models: 1, 14, 15, 16 and 18, with the 3 and 6 hunting models also by some did see actual combat in WW2.

The Model #14 was supposed to be a mass production knife for the Military, but the deal fell through when the Officers who were working with Randall were transferred to other duties. So the Models #14 Attack and #15 Airman were just added to the Randall Catalog. Being that the #14 and #15 had been in testing by actual Military units the word got around fast so Randall sold a ton of them to the Military anyway.

Most notably Randalls don't have what is called prybar edge geometry, their edges are actually pretty thin, thinner than MOST folders these days.


Model #1 7"

750_2561 by Jim Ankerson, on Flickr


Model #14 7.5"


750_2619 by Jim Ankerson, on Flickr

[wrdwrght]

Back in '68, Gerber made pretty good knives and I bought their Mark I dagger in anticipation of a tour in Vietnam.

As an Artillery officer expecting work as a forward observer, I figured I could use the knife for quiet work along the perimeter of Night Defensive Positions...

So, there I was in the Officers Club at battalion headquarters waiting for my assignment. Wanting to shorten the leather thong that tied the scabbard to my leg, I looped it over the dagger's dull-by-design edge and had to apply such a pulling force that that the dagger's tip knicked the sclera of my eyeball.

I'll leave this particular embarrassment there.

Suffice to say, I took a strategic decision to dump this ridiculously limited "tactical" knife and get a truly practical Ka-Bar that I could still use in the dark.

The Gerber Mark was introduced in 1976. It was actually the only Gerber knife I am aware of fully designed by Al Mar.

The Mk I knife sheath never had a leather leg tie of any sort. While not as sharp as the originally more flared Mk II tip, Gerber daggers were always the sharpest production daggers because they were all very near zero edged, with washed-out secondary v edges, which on some examples made the tip fragile ...

Yours could only be a Mark II in 1968, and the tip was usually quite thin and sharp, though leather ties can be tough to tip-cut for ANY knife... Old Gerber daggers as delivered do not always fit the dull dagger cutting edge stereotype (Neither did similarly thin edged Randall Model 2s, or the more recent Beauchop daggers)

Sharpness allows daggers to cut outward after a Stab, and Fairbairn always emphasized sharpness...

Gaston

Thanks for the correction, Gaston.

Truth be told, I’ve never really thought about that knife as anything other than “my Gerber”.

In getting my story ready for this thread, I checked the Net for pics, saw the one I had among other Marks and just assumed that my model, which I knew to be the original, was the first Mark, therefore, the Mark I.

That’ll learn me, 52(!) years after the fact.

[Water Bug]

I'm all about practical when it comes to the design of a knife, but I've found that some "practical" knives do carry some "tactical" qualities and capabilities, and vice versa...

...To me, the Spyderco Military and Para Military 2 are quite practical, but they have that nice touch of tactical to them. The Emerson CQC-8 is advertised as a tactical folding knife and considered, "one of the best combat designs that we have ever produced," by Emerson, but I personally find the design of the CQC-8 to have a lot of practical characteristics and use.

[ThomC]

To me, the Spyderco Military and Para Military 2 are quite practical, but they have that nice touch of tactical

I share your view. I tried to stay away from the 'military look' in the past, but so much of the stuff is well thought out and practical it's hard to use something else.
The Millie and the PM2 fit my hand so well I find myself nitpicking my other knives and ultimately selling them.
As an example, the Manix 2 XL I got last week spent only a couple of days in my pocket because of its lesser practicality.

[ladybug93]

much like they say of survival knives... the best one is the one you have on you when you need it. obviously there are some concerns like trying to stab with a slipjoint, but if i had someone on me i couldn’t get off of me and a knife within reach, i’ll use it if i have to.

that said, i agree with many that posted most weapons were derived from functional tools that people were allowed to have and they adapted usage for defensive purposes. that’s tru of most martial arts weapons and many knives. i mean a knife was meant for a tool before it was turned on other humans.

the yojimbo 2 is the perfect marriage of these two genres in my opinion. it is a very functional edc cutting tool and it’s designed for self defense by someone that knows what he’s talking about. i really appreciate the design and functionality of it. if you haven’t tried one, you should. it stands on the line between the two and is quite capable in both directions.

[Gaston444]

Tactical for me means “fighting”, but the border with “survival” is somewhat porous.

I prefer fixed blades, and decades ago found shoulder carry far superior for medium sized fixed blades, as it allows concealed carry with the waistband free and, best of all, the jacket open(!). The downside is the elastic straps needed for this cannot easily loop under the opposite arm while being much wider than just 1 inch...: This limits the knife weight to about 7-8 ounces: For a blade of 7 inches, this largely means stick tang daggers with synthetic handle materials... Daggers tending to be dull, the one sharp model I found (outside of Randall) were the near zero edge Gerber Guardian IIs of 1980s vintage.

Survival knives means chopping to me, so 10” blades (I won’t go much longer). To my surprise, for this more intense use, I often found custom steels radically inferior and more problematic than even the cheapest factory steels(!), particularly when up against Asian 420J... In widely available knives, my current “best choice” is -ignoring knife snob sneers- the Master Cutlery Rambo II(!), both for handle and blade: The round handle can be wrapped in padded extra-thick tennis racket tape without becoming too bulky to hold, because the round shape allows maximum horizontal “fatness” for a given finger reach. Also, the separate round tube is much more “dead” to vibrations than thinner blade full tang choppers like the BK-9 or Junglas (4.9 mm on the BK-9 vs 5.3 mm at the guard on the MC). I found the vibrations on the BK-9 particularly objectionable, while the Kraton handle on the Trailmaster was far, far too thin, both knives being consequently quite low in functionality compared to a wrapped MC... The Trailmaster handle could be wrapped (unlike the already fat BK-9’s hard handle) but it’s narrower 1.5 inch blade was still an inferior chopper to the 1.8 inch wide MC blade: A large difference... A clearly superior chopper would be the Ontario SP-53, but these tend to be dull and no easier to sharpen than the 420 steel on the MC, especially with the recurve shape... The MC has a very strong point that is also far pointier than most competing knives, with the possible exception of the excellent Schrade Schf 45. This point consideration is the merged “tactical” aspect, which excludes a lot of the heavier thick-point choppers from Busse or Ontario...

The 420J blade of the MC, including the point and the handle attachment, are really nearly indestructible(!), even at thin edge angles, the trick being to just send them back until you get one with no blade to handle “clicking”... I also found the surface finish rather better and truer than my original Lile... Even the 1” thick leather sheath is excellent on its own. The only downside is they need tall edge bevels and angling of the saw tops to be functional. The steel has truly remarkable rough edge-holding, but will lose its razor edge a little earlier, a small price to pay for the great ease of sharpening of an actual stainless...

For folders, I always found pocket clips too visible for concealment, as metal ones usually don’t stay black very long... Pocket carry of large folders was always problematic (both for the knife and the pocket!), until I realized the padded pouch of my Spyderco Civilian could be left partially unzipped, the padding holding the knife upright to allow direct access, making inside jacket pocket carry a dream... Never looked back on this “tactical” solution since.

Gaston