Spyderco Forums

sal wrote:We've planning a Civvie 2 for the past few years. Just haven't gotten to it.I'm sure after all of these years there are certainly refinements possible.

I'd like to make it tip up with an Emerson opener like the P'Kal, wider tip, tip up to go with the EO. Probably worth a discussion.

sal

Hey guys!

Much has changed since the Civilian was designed and introduced... from materials tech to Spyderco knife design and innovations.

Regarding the possibility of a Civilian 2...

What would you love to see different a Civilian 2? And why?

Should be an interesting discussion... :-)

Thanks!
Dan

Personally...I really can't see myself ever buying a civilian. Even if I did want a knife like that I would think the waved matriarch II is lighter and more carryable without sacrificing a whole lot. With a blade like this I wouldn't think the overall weight would matter much "in use."

But hey, I've changed my mind in the past, so I'm interested to see what people come up with.

Hmm..I think Sal kinda nailed it with the changes he listed. Tip up, Emerson wave, thicker tip. The only thing I would add is make the whole thing black. I also like the idea of using a Pkal style EO instead of the version on the matriarch. But either way is good. Just a personal preference.

I would buy one.

The EO seemed like a no brainer for a knife designed for self defense. Add a thicker tip and you got something going.

Been looking at a Matriarch for a while know but wanted the larger size of the Civilian.

I wouldn't much care about a thicker tip since I would not use that kind of knife for other than a defensive tool. And, I don't care much for the Emerson wave feature. I'd rather do without that. An FRN handle and a blade measuring 3.49" so it is Colorado concealed-legal would be my druthers. Oh, and a satin blade so if I ever had to deploy it, it would scream: DANGER!

The Civillian is a unique piece indeed, currently looking this bag girl over I could go for:

1. I like the blade shape EXACTLY as it stands (keep it original, other knifemakers already copying it so keep it the same, perhaps a black blade)
2. Jimping for the thumb and add a choil
3. Tip up carry
4. G-10 & Carbon Fiber available :spyder:

Left/right clip positions, please.

Better steel?

ZDP 189 Civilian anyone?

Chinook3 wrote:The Civillian is a unique piece indeed, currently looking this bag girl over I could go for:

1. I like the blade shape EXACTLY as it stands (keep it original, other knifemakers already copying it so keep it the same, perhaps a black blade)
2. Jimping for the thumb and add a choil
3. Tip up carry
4. G-10 & Carbon Fiber available :spyder:

Agree with everything except a choil. I think the biggest miss on the civi and matriarch is the lack of jimping.

A Civilian XL...I would say add an inch longer on the blade...it would still fit into pants pockets and cargo pockets.
Two finger choils...one near the top and the second near the bottom...this would give you a second hand position and extend the reach of your blade.
Clip position set higher and lower for a lower concealment of the knife...like the one on the Manix2...very nice.
G10 for sure.

Rapidray wrote:A Civilian XL...I would say add an inch longer on the blade...it would still fit into pants pockets and cargo pockets.
Two finger choils...one near the top and the second near the bottom...this would give you a second hand position and extend the reach of your blade.
Clip position set higher and lower for a lower concealment of the knife...like the one on the Manix2...very nice.
G10 for sure.

I like this XL version, that would be one wicked long blade. The second finger choil is throwing me off, would this be for reverse grip? or to "neck back" on the knife, thanks

Would love black blade, foliage scales.

A thicker blade, especially the tip.

A larger Spydie Hole.

Chinook3 wrote:

Rapidray wrote:A Civilian XL...I would say add an inch longer on the blade...it would still fit into pants pockets and cargo pockets.
Two finger choils...one near the top and the second near the bottom...this would give you a second hand position and extend the reach of your blade.
Clip position set higher and lower for a lower concealment of the knife...like the one on the Manix2...very nice.
G10 for sure.

I like this XL version, that would be one wicked long blade. The second finger choil is throwing me off, would this be for reverse grip? or to "neck back" on the knife, thanks

The second one at the bottom would be for your pinky finger to rest in a normal "hammer grip". By doing this you have just added more blade reach. :)

Rapidray wrote:

Chinook3 wrote:

Rapidray wrote:A Civilian XL...I would say add an inch longer on the blade...it would still fit into pants pockets and cargo pockets.
Two finger choils...one near the top and the second near the bottom...this would give you a second hand position and extend the reach of your blade.
Clip position set higher and lower for a lower concealment of the knife...like the one on the Manix2...very nice.
G10 for sure.

I like this XL version, that would be one wicked long blade. The second finger choil is throwing me off, would this be for reverse grip? or to "neck back" on the knife, thanks

The second one at the bottom would be for your pinky finger to rest in a normal "hammer grip". By doing this you have just added more blade reach. :)

I kinda like that "bottom choil" idea, I like the Civilian in a reverse grip edge out sometimes, that bottom choil would work for that too! Good id'er :spyder:

These are some great ideas!!

Some thoughts...

Emerson opener - good to have options, especially for a defensive folder. In a high stress defensive situation, speed counts.
I wouldn't have an EO on a regular EDC knife, i.e. the Military, but for a defensive folder where speed matters, it makes great sense.

Wider tip - sounds great, the most frequent complaint (frankly the only complaint) I ever see about the Civilian is "you're gonna break the tip!!"
Yes, this is a defensive knife, it's not intended for utility tasks. but in real life, we all know that if you reach down and that's the only knife you've got on you, you're gonna take it out and carefully use it to cut what you gotta cut.

Scales - what's going to provided the absolute best grip in an actual use scenario?

Larger Spydie hole - yes!!!

Finger choils - especially bottom
1.) hmmm... would you really want to be holding a knife by the choil (as opposed to the comparably far more solid handle grip) in a very fast moving, adrenaline fueled defensive situation? Consider the very real possibility of a wet grip as well... That sounds like a real dangerous proposition.
2.) BUT the finger choils (i.e. on the Military and others) are invaluable in saving your fingers in case of accidental closure... so this could be a great addition
3.) would a bottom finger choil for finger safety detract from the effective use of this knife? actually - adding half inch to the blade would allow for addition of the choil and I don't THINK it should impact the function of the knife - thoughts?

XL - longer blade
Hmmm... adding half inch would increase reach (reach being key in a defensive situation) would allow for finger choils without taking away from cutting length. reach is key in a defensive situation, tho has to be balanced with usability...
Not really concerned about knife length laws - at 4.25" already, the worst infringers on knife rights already infringe on your right to carry such a knife, and i don't think there's much practical infringement zone difference between 4.25 and 5. thankfully knife laws are relaxing across the U.S., in tandem with gun rights... slow and steady. AZ has no knife infringements, and Texas limits us to 5.5" for now, tho I expect that to be thrown out by the next legislature, just like switchblades were removed from illegal knives recently.
Tho longer blade might also add width in the pocket...

Black blade
Torn on this one... thinking through the philosophy of use - what you're actually going to use this knife for (but hopefully never have to use) - would a black blade help or hurt - or would it end up being neutral?
This is not an EDC blade to take out around other folks, like a full size regular EDC... so muting the blade for basic quick cut doesn't seem to apply.
Now, a defensive situation - this is where it gets interesting. Firearms for example are often used without a shot being fired - the act of presenting a tool that makes the assault, robbery, etc. a **** poor move for the attacker will often break off the attack in search of lower hanging defenseless fruit. A black blade will present less of a visual deterrent vs that very shiny wicket looking blade.
Then again, I don't generally go for shiny guns... years ago when I got a Kahr PM9 I paid extra for the black coated slide version, and I like Glocks in nice Glock black.
I could see this go either way.

Steel - H1? maybe fine as is?
This one's interesting too... this knife is really a contingency tool, in a way, like an insurance policy, just in case. So practically speaking, does it need a steel that keeps an edge better in the long run than VG10 (and costs more, raising the price of the knife), as it's not going to be used day in and day out like your main EDC folder.
BUT in extended carry, especially for a knife that is carried WITHOUT being used regularly, it may be subject to moisture, sweat, etc.
Would (edge work hardened) H1 be a steel to consider here?

Dan

H1 Blade is good idea.
Left/Right clip, and, of course, lefty-version with serration on corresponding side :)

The bottom choil would be used more for "memory" and not safty as your hand is now even futher away from the blade. More so that when your pinky falls into the choil you know where your at.

H1 steel...I could see using this as a lot of people live on coastal waters and would be a good option.

I know I already said I'm not interested in this knife, but I'm definitely interested in the discussion from a design requirements standpoint since I'm a (former) mechanical engineer.

I think that the choice of a tough steel (slash HT) is a much better choice than a very hard wear resistant steel. This knife will only be used for a very short time, so (long term) edge retention is not really a factor. Also, slight deformations (rolling) of the edge are not as much of a problem as an actual fracture of the blade itself, which is made more likely the harder you go (in general). I think that you'd want a minimum of maintenance, so a very stainless steel would be a good choice. H1, as people have suggested, does indeed satisfy these requirements, but I think it's actually a bad choice which I'll explain.

This is a uni-tasker, to steal a term from Alton Brown, so I would think that you'd want to produce it as cheaply as possible. This seems to be Spyderco's tactic on the new Ronin, and I think that's the correct choice. If it's ever actually used for its intended purpose, it will probably either be damaged or confiscated, so why make it any more expensive than needed? So as I said, I think the selection of H1 is actually a very bad choice, as it unnecessarily raises the cost without buying you much. There are other steels which are tough and very stainless, yet also very low cost. We think of them a "cheap" or "poor performers" but again, edge retention over many cuts against abrasive media is not a factor.

I think a firm grip is paramount, and I think to achieve this some 3D contouring is beneficial. Thus, I would suggest a bi-directional FRN handle, as the contours don't increase the cost per unit, and the texture is very grip-enhancing. They used it on the Warrior, for instance. Also, FRN has the benefit of low cost per piece.

I think you could relatively easily make it in waved and non-waved versions. Doing this with the Delica/Endura line obviously hasn't been an issue, and I would imagine you either definitely want to always use that feature, or definitely don't want it there, so it's very polarizing.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on a future Civilian.

I'd love a reversable tip up, power lock, plain edge, stronger tip Civillian 2. It's one of my ideal knives really.

If FRN gets thrown in the mix, it suddenly becomes a Matriarch in my mind. There must be a need for a nicer looking serrated self defence knife otherwise Spyderco would stop producing the Civilian. I think it should stay G10 and maybe receive a tweak in the handle shape.