Diet and nutrition, assorted topics

[tvenuto]

This topic began when I somewhat hijacked SEFs thread about knives and children (admittedly the summary sounds scarier than the topic). It was mentioned that at least part of the blame for the obesity/diabetic epidemic we are currently experiencing (in the US) is due to poor public policy wherein the least healthy calories are subsidized, thus making them more cost effective. I went to the grocery store today and tested this hypothesis, as admittedly, I had no direct data to back up that claim (other than the knowledge that commodity corn, and the processed products it results in, are indeed subsidized by tax dollars). So, here are some (rather random) data points.

How this data should be used: as a glimpse, and perhaps indication, of the incentive structure that is set up for a person who is interested in spending as little on food as possible, and how this may lead them to make deleterious dietary choices. As an example of what someone might actually go into the store and buy, not looking to game maximizing calories.

How this data should not be used: as an indication that more/less calories are good or bad, or as an indication that all calories are equivalent. As an indication that "healthy" is a quality that any food can possess. As an exhaustive list of possible choices, or a definitive claim that this sampling represents all possible choices.

I think it's also fair to note that I chose some of the most calorie dense "healthy" foods possible. See below for what I mean by "highly processed."

The "healthy choices team" (characterized by products that are minimally processed)
Bunny-Luv (yup) organic carrots - $1.29/1lb bag. 175cals total. 135cals/dollar.
NY strip steak - $7.99/lb (which was on sale and as inexpensive as you're likely to find). 828cals for a 12oz portion. 138cals/dollar.
Sabra Classic Hummus (family size) - $7.99/17oz. 1,190cals total. 149cals/dollar.
Harris Teeter (store) brand organic peanut butter - $4.99/1lb jar. 3,150cals total. 631cals/dollar
Boston Lettuce - $1.99/head. 50 cals total. 25cals/dollar

The "unhealthy choices team" (characterized by products with many ingredients that are highly processed)
Chex Mix - $1.50/bag (on sale). 960cals total. 640cals/dollar.
Pepsi (2l) - $1.89/bottle (on sale). 845cals total. 447cals/dollar.
Harris Teeter root beer - $0.89/bottle. 1,000cal total. 1,123cals/dollar.
Standard size Snickers bar - $0.89/bar. 250cal total. 280cals/dollar. (I was in a hurry to snap the snickers photo and it's possible that there was more than one serving per bar, but I am assuming not)

*Highly processed: A food that you can not make by yourself with base ingredients. For example, given a cow, a knife, and enough knowledge, you can produce a strip steak identical to the one I bought. Also, you can pick raw peanuts, roast them, blend them, and produce peanut butter largely identical to the one I bought. However, you can not go out into a field, gather some corn, wheat and soy, and produce the chex mix I bought.

[tvenuto]

Just a note that I'm open to topics beyond just "bad foods are cheaper per cal" which is why I titled this thread how I did.

Also, I hope we can discuss diet without feeling like people are attacking YOUR diet. Feel free to eat what you please, we could really care less. Just be open to discussing different ideas.

[Cliff Stamp]

There are lots of very inexpensive foods which are very high in caloric content, for example potatoes are typically 1500 to 2000 calories/dollar. Whole foods bought in bulk like beans and rice are again very high per dollar because they are very inexpensive, similar with a large can of olive oil. Unprocessed food only tends to get expensive when like anything else you look for name brands and fancy tags.

[tvenuto]

Granted, however a diet of olive oil, rice, beans, peanut butter and potatoes gets pretty boring. I chose these things in a naturalistic way, that is, what you might actually buy if you were planning on feeding yourself, not what you'd buy to game maximizing calories per dollar (as the end in itself). Original post edited.

And I actually have drank (drunk?) olive oil for its calories, but I would venture to say that very few others have done the same.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Two questions:

1 Is it easier and cheaper to buy for higher caloric less nutritious food based on these numbers?

2 Is it a good healthy snack to eat this? whole grain or related bread with olive oil?

[bearfacedkiller]

1) In general yes, processed foods are largely starches and sugars which are both high in calories and affordable. There are exceptions to this rule which is why pb&honey and rice and beans are both staples of mine. I also eat a lot of sweet potatoes.

2) Yes, keeping in mind the theory of all things in moderation which is paramount in nutrition then whole grain bread and olive oil are both good for you. If you are not getting enough exercise then they are high in both fat and carbs and the intake should be adjusted accordingly.

[tvenuto]

Two questions:

1 Is it easier and cheaper to buy for higher caloric less nutritious food based on these numbers?

2 Is it a good healthy snack to eat this? whole grain or related bread with olive oil?

1. "Easier" is rather subjective, but I would say so, given that all you need to do with the snack foods is unwrap them. As far as cheaper, that was the hypothesis, and it seems to have been borne out by at least the sample I collected on this particular occasion.

2. I'm going to have to say: it depends. You may have issues with gluten (proteins in the bread) that are less than full blown Celiac disease but still problematic. If you want to find this out, remove ALL gluten for 2-4 weeks (harder than you think) and then add it back and see what happens. It may also be contributing to increased intestinal permeability ("leaky gut syndrome"), which is not a good thing. Beyond that, it's impossible to say yes or no in a vacuum. If the rest of your diet is relatively high in protein, then I might say yes, this is a fine snack, if not an ideal one. The fat is probably slowing the absorption of the sugar in the bread, and your macronutrient ratios are still somewhat balanced (fat:protein:carb). However, if the rest of your diet is carb heavy, then you're not helping it with this snack, and you should probably be looking for ways to get in some protein.

[Ankerson]

There was a documentary or something I watched a few years ago and they said something like it was actually cheaper to eat the bad stuff than it was to eat healthy.

The business I was in I for the most part saw the same thing so it wasn't all that surprising.

One would actually have to grow their own veggies and can everything for that to really change.

Maybe raise a few cows for beef, but I am not sure how that cost per pound would add up in the end with the assorted overhead doing that.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

What then are some healthy, nutritious, and "relatively" easy to make snacks and foods that are filling and reasonably inexpensive, that you all recommend, tvenuto, Ankerson, and others?

I like celery and to top it with different things, such as humus/chick peas, cheese, peanut butter, and other toppings, and also, I admit, I love bread and cheese combinations.

Another question related to this: Portion size: I read how some people don't feel satisfied unless they eat at least one or two very large portions of a food dish. What are some ways to 'fill up' on things that are healthy and not so caloric, but still leave you feeling full or semi full?

[Surfingringo]

I am curious too about figuring out some new healthy meals/snacks. Until about 40 I never had to give any thought to diet. My metabolism and exercise level kept me lean. Well, now I have to pay a bit more attention. I took a lot of sugars out of my diet but I need at least a few carbs to stay satisfied feeling. What are some healthy carbs/sugars that can be consumed and still stay lean. Sometimes I have big bowl of flavored yogurt with granola and banana but I think that has quite a bit of sugar. Would be nice to find something simple I could substitute for that.

[tvenuto]

What then are some healthy, nutritious, and "relatively" easy to make snacks and foods that are filling and reasonably inexpensive, that you all recommend, tvenuto, Ankerson, and others?

I like celery and to top it with different things, such as humus/chick peas, cheese, peanut butter, and other toppings, and also, I admit, I love bread and cheese combinations.

A few questions:
Why do you "snack" at all?
What is required of your snacks? (portability, non-perishabiliity, etc)

Personally, I don't "snack" much, I just eat meals. Some meals are larger than others, but they all contain a complete source of protein, fat, and a larger or smaller amount of carbs depending. A true "snack" to me would be like I knew I was going to be out on the road or hiking or something, so I bring a protein bar because I need it to be pocketable. When I snowboard, I boil two eggs and put them in a plastic bag in my pocket: pocket eggs. I think when most people "snack" they're hungry, and at home, they just don't feel like making a full meal.

The ones you list aren't bad. I like apples and almond butter or peanut butter. Another one I like is guacamole with carrots, cucumber, and sweet peppers as dipping instruments. I also eat corn chips and salsa (aprox 3 bottles of salsa required per bag of chips). However, as I mentioned these are usually part of what I would consider a full meal, like I might eat 1lb of sliced turkey along with that.

So what I would say is that your body does not recognize "snack" as a distinct type of feeding and react differently than a meal. The things that make healthy meal choices (remember: only choices are healthy or not) are the same things that make healthy snack choices.

Another question related to this: Portion size: I read how some people don't feel satisfied unless they eat at least one or two very large portions of a food dish. What are some ways to 'fill up' on things that are healthy and not so caloric, but still leave you feeling full or semi full?

It's difficult to comment on anecdotes that use nebulous/subjective measurements such as "very large." For those people that slap 2 pieces of thin sliced turkey on some bread and call it a sandwich, my declaration that I eat 1lb of that selfsame turkey in a sitting might sound ludicrous. However, it's part of me meeting my protein requirements, and within what I consider normal macronutrient ratios.

However, your question is an interesting one, and it focuses on two concepts: palatability and satiety.

Palatability is the tendency for a food to make you keep eating it.
Satiety is the tendency for a food to make you feel "full."

Now, these would seem to be polar opposites, but they aren't due to the complicated mechanisms of fullness and appetite. Case in point: I'm sure we've all had the experience where we look down at a bowl of chips or cheetos and are amazed at how many we ate, and feel uncomfortably full or even sick later. We've never had this experience with salad or broccoli. This is due to the difference in palatability of these foods. It's not that the palatable foods didn't "fill you up" it's that they circumvent those signals that tell you to stop eating. Satiety (index) is how satisfied certain foods make you (given equivalent calories). So the trick is to find foods that have high satiety, with relatively low palatability. Here's an article on the concept, but they found that white potatoes were in this category, which certainly makes sense. At 150 cals, it's roughly equivalent to one serving of soft drink, but imagine eating 5 baked potatoes in a single day (compared to the relatively easy task of drinking 5 sodas in a day).

I'm sure you can notice though, that the more processed and highly available the calories are, they more palatable they are and the less full they make you feel. If you eat mostly natural "whole" foods (and truth be told bread is a highly processed food), then you can let your appetite be your guide. Remember, no one has ever looked down at the bowl of broccoli and said "oh my god I can't believe how much broccoli I ate!"

[Ankerson]

I am big on rice dishes myself, with either beans or meat.

Cream of Wheat is another thing I really like, makes a nice snack too. :)

Cooking at home is always better than buying prepacked stuff i think, like baked chicken breasts, pork chops, beef roast.

I don't fry anything.

[Enkidude]

I typically only snack between breakfast and lunch. I like fruits and/or "handful" of nuts. I try to stay away from breads in general.

I think the idea is to eat enough at each meal that you are not hungry for snacks in between. Eating leafy greens before a meal should help you feel full, hence the typical salad before dinner.

If you are looking for good snacks that have complex carbs- pickles and veggies & hummus are good options.

Most "mainstream" yogurts are full of sugar(barring plain yogurt). I found a yogurt that is made locally in the great state of Texas that has 11g of sugar. One of the best options I've seen, but it's still a little high in sugar.

[Ankerson]

A few things a lot of people don't think about are Booze, that's beer, wine and hard liquor, NONE of it is actually a positive thing ever in any quantity.

Moderation is the big key here, less better, none is the best, way to many negatives.

Sodas are another, none of them are a good thing.

Coffee isn't a problem, it's the stuff people put in it that's the problem generally.

I am not nor have ever been a heath fanatic, I figure eating balanced meals and watching the extras is good enough for me.

I like to eat, and I like good food, I do try and stay away from fast food as much as possible.

I eat a lot of Tuna and certain types of fish.

Not all that big on the Organic thing as most of it is generally BS, just a way to jack up the prices. If you want Organic hit a farmers market someplace, other than that it's a ripoff.

Support the local farmers as much as possible, farmers market whenever possible.

[Enkidude]

A few things a lot of people don't think about are Booze, that's beer, wine and hard liquor, NONE of it is actually a positive thing ever in any quantity.

I've been under the impression that moderate consumption of red wine is better than not drinking red wine at all. Any members have any thoughts/info on that? Emphasis on moderate....

There are supposed to be a good amount of antioxidants in red wine.

[Ankerson]

A few things a lot of people don't think about are Booze, that's beer, wine and hard liquor, NONE of it is actually a positive thing ever in any quantity.

I've been under the impression that moderate consumption of red wine is better than not drinking red wine at all. Any members have any thoughts/info on that? Emphasis on moderate....

There are supposed to be a good amount of antioxidants in red wine.

That's marketing for the industry to sell wine.

It's good for you.... I laughed when I 1st read that one years ago. LOL

It's not a natural product, one of those things that if nature doesn't make it naturally then we don't need it.

[bearfacedkiller]

There are two things that I have found keep me full for a long time and they are protein and fiber.

My preferred lean protein source for snacks is low fat cottage cheese. I mix a lot of different things in with it like blueberries, pineapple and tomatoes or I just scoop it out of the tub with some celery. Cottage cheese is almost pure protein and it keeps me full for a long time and dairy goes great with fresh fruit. Cottage cheese is similar in protein content to greek yogurt which is excellent. Cottage cheese has more sodium than greek yogurt though so keep that in mind. It is very low calorie for how filling it is.

There are lots of high fiber foods but one of my favorites is beans. Beans contain protein as well as a lot of fiber. Hummus is made from garbanzo beans and it is a healthy snack. It is not the super food that cottage cheese is but it is still very good. It also has oil and a little tahini (peanut butter made from sesame seeds basically) so while it is healthy it isn't as ultra low calorie as cottage cheese. I enjoy eating hummus with carrots, celery and broccoli.

These are two of my favorite low calorie healthy snacks and eat them both very regularly.

[Enkidude]

It's not a natural product, one of those things that if nature doesn't make it naturally then we don't need it.

Can the same be said for coffee(nothing added)? There are tons of mixed opinions whether or not coffee is "good" or "bad" for you.

[tvenuto]

It's not a natural product, one of those things that if nature doesn't make it naturally then we don't need it.

Can the same be said for coffee(nothing added)? There are tons of mixed opinions whether or not coffee is "good" or "bad" for you.

Well given that wine is the product of smashed up grapes being fermented by the yeast on their skin, I don't think it should be said about either wine or coffee. However, not all of natures chemicals are necessary or productive to consume. For instance, you can pick and eat tobacco leaves straight off the plant, and that will cause you issues, but not because they are "unnatural."

Both wine and coffee can be perfectly fine dietary choices. You might value the mental acuity you get from coffee, or the stress relief you get from moderate alcohol consumption. They can also be poor choices, depending.

No food product is unequivocally "good" or "bad" for you. Be wary of anyone that claims otherwise. Water can kill you. Salt can kill you. You also need both to survive. The dose makes the poison, and everything must be taken into consideration when talking about dietary choices, as nothing happens in a vacuum. While I generally advocate protein be consumed with every meal, if you're about to die of "rabbit starvation" eating protein might be actually dangerous, you need fat.

[Surfingringo]

I hate hearing that cottage cheese is a great healthy snacks. It's on the extremely short list of foods that I just don't like. I have tried. I am not a picky eater at all but I just can't like that stuff!