Carter Cutlery knife

[jackknifeh]

Got the Muteki neck knife today in the mail. It is just like what I was expecting. I haven't used it yet so I don't have any hands on opinion yet. I did think the knives were a hollow grind but nope. When I try to see a hollowness with my naked eye I can't. But when I slowly turn the knife under a light I can see that there looks to be a slight hollow grind. Then I thought, that type light reflection might be the same if the grind were a bit convex instead of concave (hollow). That is what the grind is. It looks like a saber grind with the "line" or the saber portion much higher on the blade than a Delica saber grind for example. The grind issue is not a complaint, it's just a little different than I expected. I was expecting a slight hollow grind. Now I'm sure the blade is ground by hand on a stone. It's very slight convexness is exactly what you'd expect when doing it by hand. I'm interested to see the "Carter made" Carter neck knife when it gets here. It is coming with a free kitchen knife which I'm really interested in using. I don't cook much and I don't remember even holding a "nicer" kitchen knife. I'll make a few comments about it but they won't be educated comments.

This neck knife did come very sharp, there's no doubt about it. But it's not sharpER than some Spyderco's that have come to my house. I do believe there won't be any issue of loosing the sharpness due to the edge being sharpened on a grinder. They are all hand sharpened on stones just like we do it. What I will do is wait for the real Carter knife (not apprentice made) to get here to compare sharpness. Not that that is all important because one thing is for sure. No matter how sharp a knife is when new it will get dull then that level of sharpness won't matter. You either re-sharpen it or you return it for sharpening. What will matter most to me is the edge retention of the white steel. I'm the only person who has used any knife that I'll be comparing edge retention to. I will look to see if I have any "not already sliced up" pizza boxes around to test with. :) Edge retention is dependent on a variety of factors. If I can't see any difference at all in everyday use then it won't matter. I'll try to not let my high expectations effect my opinion one way or the other.

I have higher expections for this knife because of the reputation of Carter Cutlery. As I said I also have another one coming. I'll post a picture of it I copied off the web site. The handle is really pretty on that one. So far I'm very happy with the obvious things like it's very comfortable to hold and cut with. Haven't done any hard cutting yet but I don't anticipate any hot or uncomfortable spots. It carries extremely well, expecially for something on my belt. VERY light and not bulky at all. It's almost invisible under my shirt. I've gone to town with it on and I didn't have any issues with my shirt (outside pants) bunching up over it or anything like that. No seat belt hangups. I can't tell it's there. If it were in the neck sheath I would know it all the time even with it under my shirt. Just a bit too big for me. I will carry it this way though to see if my opinion changes. Anyway, here are a few pictures. Oh yeah, I also ordered the belt sheath. I'm glad I did because my old feelings of a fixed blade neck knife are the same. It's a bit too big for a neck knife. OTOH, the thing about disappears on my belt. This amazed me. I took a picture of the belt sheath. It is kydex but VERY thin. The kydex is much thinner and the sheath is less bulky than any other kydex sheath I've seen. I hope the other knife I'm getting will fit in this belt sheath. :confused:

Carter Cutlery Muteki neck knife and belt sheath


Carter Cutlery Muteki neck knife in belt sheath


Carter Cutlery Muteki and the sheath thickness. The sheath is thin which is great and it goes on and comes off the belt without unbuckling the belt.


Carter Muteki and Spyderco Worker for size comparison.


Carter original neck knife with birch and bocote handle (front)


Carter original neck knife with birch and bocote handle (back)


Carter original neck knife with birch and bocote handle (bottom)


Jack

[jackknifeh]

Got to thinking more people may have D'fly's than a worker so here's a picture with the Carter knife and a D'fly 2 for size comparison.

[jackknifeh]

I am pretty sure I'll be sharpening this thing in the next day or two (if I can wait that long :) ). I just want to see what it feels like and what I can do with it. Pretty dumb, huh? :o

[jackknifeh]

One more thing before I go play. :) I did the 3 finger test one this knife. It feels the same to me as the other very sharp knives I've done this test on. I'm going to do that test a lot from now on to see if I ever get the benefit of that test. When using it I can tell when a knife is really dull or if it is sharp. But I don't trust just that test. I can't do the three finger test and have a good idea of how it will cut phone book paper. Maybe that's because I've cut up lots of phone books and only done the 3 finger test maybe 20 times.

[jackknifeh]

Just a bit on different ways to refer to blades and parts of a blade and Murray Carter's terminology about blades. He uses only "primary edge" and "secondary edge" when referring to the blade. I'm assuming that refers to the edge bevel and the area above that until just below the CARTER name stamped on the blade. I would consider this closer to a saber grind compared to how we refer to Spyderco knives. This blade has 3 bevels. I'd call them "edge bevel", "back bevel" and then whatever you'd call the higher area where the carter stamp is. The opposite side of the same portion of the blade is parallel with this side.

[Evil D]

Does yours have the tapered tang at the butt of the handle like the Carter version does? That may be one of the details left out to save cost. I think out of all the custom options out there, his is one that I would be most likely to buy and really put to use.

As for the grind, I'm pretty certain I've seen in his videos that he recommends actually honing/polishing the primary grind the blade routinely to help prevent corrosion and to maintain the grind as you sharpen the edge over time. This is why I would be extremely surprised if he used a hollow grind in one of his knives.

[jackknifeh]

Just a bit on different ways to refer to blades and parts of a blade and Murray Carter's terminology about blades. He uses only "primary edge" and "secondary edge" when referring to the blade. I'm assuming that refers to the edge bevel and the area above that until just below the CARTER name stamped on the blade. I would consider this closer to a saber grind compared to how we refer to Spyderco knives. This blade has 3 bevels. I'd call them "edge bevel", "back bevel" and then whatever you'd call the higher area where the carter stamp is. The opposite side of the same portion of the blade is parallel with this side.

I'll get some measurements on the blade and edge thickness later.

[jackknifeh]

Does yours have the tapered tang at the butt of the handle like the Carter version does? That may be one of the details left out to save cost. I think out of all the custom options out there, his is one that I would be most likely to buy and really put to use.

As for the grind, I'm pretty certain I've seen in his videos that he recommends actually honing/polishing the primary grind the blade routinely to help prevent corrosion and to maintain the grind as you sharpen the edge over time. This is why I would be extremely surprised if he used a hollow grind in one of his knives.

Here's a pic of the handle and tang taper. The steel gets thinner toward the end of the handle.


Yeah, he does recommend routinely thin the secondary edge instead of doing a bunch of apex touch ups then once in a while thin the blade. Of course this will be determined and done by users and very differently I'm sure. I've taken pics of the bevel. It looks like the "primary edge" is a "bevel" and "micro-bevel" both. Hope it shows in the picture.

[jackknifeh]

I'm going to use this knife tonight as a dinner knife. Patina? We'll see. :)

[Evil D]

Not to derail, but Jack do you know if any of the knives on his site that are listed as out of stock are ever back in stock? I'd really like something like this

[jackknifeh]

Not to derail, but Jack do you know if any of the knives on his site that are listed as out of stock are ever back in stock? I'd really like something like this

I believe (means I don't know for sure) each picture is the knife you get when you buy it. So I'm thinking they are not back in stock. But the knives are replaced I'd bet with another one just the same. Maybe the handle is the same material but looks a little different. Wood is always different, that sort of thing. When? Don't have a clue. After I bought the Muketi it is still listed but says out of stock. The real Carter neck knife I bought isn't even listed when you look at the selection of "neck knives" which are the Carter made ones. I believe all the ones made by the apprentice are "Muteki". The one in your picture looks like this SKU: NKWCBFFUW190X87RBM and that one is listed out of stock. But, the Carter neck knife I bought is still accessible because I clicked on the knife on my order form when I look at my orders. I also brought it up when I click on a bookmark I had created when shopping. So it's still on the web site but it's not listed when you bring up the "neck knives". So, I have no idea about an answer because the two knives I bought were handled differently as far as their web site is concerned. :confused: :confused: Better call or email them. Sorry I can't help more.

Jack
PS
Another odd thing is the picture you posted if it is the out of stock knife I'm thinking of IS still there and it is a real Carter. If it was sold why is it listed as out of stock while my real Carter knife is gone completely. More :confused: :)

[jackknifeh]

I cut up enough cardboard without loosing any sharpness to show me it has very good edge retention. I judged it by slicing phone book paper before and after and paying attention to how it felt. This is very good. So I resharpened the edge putting more of a polished bevel on it and going by the width of the bevel I lowered the angle.

Edge from the box. Notice how far back the edge goes at the heel.


Edge after I sharpened it. I'm taking the edge apex farther back, closer to the choil. This resulted in a little "issue" for the moment. It is super sharp along the entire edge, just not as polished on the bevel at the heel. I'll fix it later.


If you look at the heel of the edge you can see I tried to take the edge a tiny bit farther back. You can see an area that isn't as polished as the rest of the blade to the tip. I'll fix this later. It is caused because I need to remove more steel at the very heel. Maybe I should have left the last 1/16" unsharpened. May or may not use a sharpening notch. This is a "not" for right now. Oh well. I found out what I wanted. This white steel gets VERY sharp quite easily. The knife is cutting great. The steel is easily sharpened and holds an edge extremely well. It'll take more use to know any more than that or if my observations and opinion right now will change or not. Very, very happy right now though. :D

Jack

[jackknifeh]

Here's a picture of the knife hanging in it's neck sheath. A bit bigger than I like for neck sheath carry but I'm going to give it a try for a while. I don't know how I'd feel about it in public. Rather I don't know how others would react. Personally I wouldn't care how they react. But some idiot might shoot me thinking I'm a terrorist. :)

[jackknifeh]

I started this thread to discuss the one Carter Cutlery Muteki (apprentice made) neck knife I ordered. I was planning on providing one person's outlook on the knife. I ended up ordering an original neck knife made by Murray Carter also. I got this knife because a Kuro-uchi kitchen knife came as a free promotion. So, this thread will be about more than the one knife. I'll try to give opinions on the Muteki and original neck knives as well as the kitchen knife. I'll make comments as they come to me. If anyone is curious about these knives ask questions. I'll give my viewpoint. I might even do a little work in the kitchen when wife cooks to try the Kuro-uchi knife. Carter Cutlery has the Muteki (apprentice made) kitchen cutlery also at lower prices.

[Nate]

Thanks for the updates, Jack! Following along with interest.

[jackknifeh]

Pizza tonight. That means edge retention testing later. :)

Jack

[jackknifeh]

Checking the shipping this afternoon I saw the new Carter neck knife had gotten to town and it would have been delivered tomorrow. But, I called and went and picked it up. :) Here are some pictures and some brief comments on this knife and this knife compared to the Muteki. I'll write more about the new Carter made neck knife later.

The knife with a birch/bocote handle is the Carter neck knife original model.

Front


Back


Together. One pretty big difference is there is a non-sharpened section in front of the finger choil. It's easy to see in the picture.


Edge curvature at heel. At the heel of the edge you can see a slight recurve. The Muteki was like this but I remedied it by putting a sharpening notch at the heel and "sharpening" the heel so now the edge is straight.


Difference in blade grinds. Secondary edge angle on the Muteki is 13.55 degrees inclusive. The secondary edge angle on the Carter make knife is 9.75 degrees inclusive. I used my angle cube to determine this. I won't claim the angles are exact or the exact same along the entire blade. But they are very close. I took the measurements three times on each knife. Notice the secondary edge on the Muteki isn't as high on the blade as it is on the Carter made knife. The secondary edge is ground so it is very thin at the edge. Then a very small primary edge bevel. I wouldn't call it a micro-bevel if I were looking at a knife I'd sharpened because it's too wide. But it is not much bigger than what I would call a micro-bevel. This makes the Muteki knife a little more "beefier" than the Carter made knife.


SHARPNESS: The Muteki came very sharp but it wasn't anything jaw-dropping. The Carter made knife OTOH is what I expect from a Murray Carter knife. Notice the very small primary edge bevel. I'll be doing some cutting with it tomorrow. That will tell me about edge retention compared to the Muteki.

Primary edge front


Primary edge back


Couple of pictures displaying the cutting ability of a Carter Cutlery neck knife. I'm too tired to put this in a video.




How's that for a cutting display? :)

I'll post more after I use the knife.

Jack

[jackknifeh]

As usual I left something out. This new knife came with an offer for a free kitchen knive. Taylor (Murray's apprentice) said Murray was going to need to make the knife but it should only take a couple of days delay. I asked him to go ahead and send the neck knife which he did. So still have another new knife to look forward to.

[jackknifeh]

DIFFERENCES I SEE IN THE MUTEKI (apprentice made) KNIFE AND THE CARTER MADE KNIFE

The grind on the Carter knife is thinner and the thickness behind the edge is VERY consistent along the edge. The Muteki is also consistent, just thicker. So if that were my only concern when considering one of the two knives I'd get the Muteki because I can thin the blade myself. But, if anyone wouldn't feel comfortable thinning the blade the Carter knife would be the choice. The Muteki, at $250+ is far too expensive to grind on for the first time. But with some practice on less expensive knives thinning the blade is easily doable.

The entire Carter knife has a little more refined look or a better fit & finish. It's like the Carter made knife was made by someone with many years experience and the Muteki is made by someone with skill, just not the experience. Both are very nice knives.

The one thing I can't be sure of and have no way to test accurately is if the quality of the steel is the same due to the forging of the maker. I have used both knives enough to know they both get very sharp and have excellent edge retention. I did enough cutting of thick cardboard with the Carter made knife for it to loose the initial very sharp edge. I touched it up and can attest that the steel gets very sharp easily and holds an edge about the same as the Muteki. I think the only way to tell the actual difference would be to test edge retention under very controlled, repeated tests. But for me, the edge retention (so far) is close enough to be considered the same. Very good. :) Another thing is since every knife is hand forged there may be slight differences in the steel between every Carter Cutlery knife. Again, I doubt (would hope) they are all close enough in performance to not have to worry about a huge performance difference. When we buy production knives the blades are cut from sheets of the steel and I assume the entire set of blades from the steel are the same.

The Muteki knives range from $250 to $300. The Carter made knives range from $430 (what I paid) to $700 and a few are more expensive. Do I think the Carter made knives are worth the additional cost? I don't know. Probably not. Except for the better fit & finish and most of the Carter made knives have better looking handles of multiple materials and that takes quite a bit more time and work than a handle with a handle of the same material. My Muteki has AZ desert ironwood. The Carter knife has birch and bocote wood seperated with liners between the scales and tang and between the different woods. So for a more beautiful handle the cost will ususlly go up. But the AZ ironwood is a very attractive handle. The attractiveness of a knife has no effect on performance. So like anything what one model is worth compared to a similar model is up to the individual. It usually boils down to how much you appreciate the subtle differences in quality and/or appearance. Personally I had no intention of getting a Carter made neck knife until the offer of a free kitchen knife came my way. So, in my mind the neck knife is $150 less than I actually paid. If wife doesn't like the kitchen knife I'll sell it.

Another reason I'm glad I bought these two knives and will have the kitchen knife in a few days is I'll not be looking at them and drooling over the knives not really knowing if they are as great as Murray claims. Now I have my own opinion. My opinion at the moment is I'm going to keep the Carter made neck knife and use it. I may or may not sell the Muteki neck knife but I probably will. The kitchen knife I don't know about because I don't have it yet. Wife does love the 6.5" serrated Spyderco kitchen knife. This is the first time she has liked a knife enough to mention it without me asking her opinion. I also ordered the 4.5" paring knife. It will be interesting what she thinks of the Carter knife. She doesn't know what I paid for the Spyderco knives and she won't know what the Carter kitchen knives sell for. If she asks I'll lie for now so she doesn't have that in her mind when deciding if she likes the knives or not. I want her opinion to be based solely on performance and/or what she likes in a knife.

Jack

[jackknifeh]

The Kuro-uchi kitchen knife arrived today. :D I haven't done anything with it yet. The blade is ground very thin and it's very very sharp. I'm eager to cut some food. Also, eager to see how wife likes it. Her only resistance to getting expensive kitchen cutlery has always been that she doesn't want to worry about treating the knives with the care they need. For example she likes to use a knife then just lay it down on the counter or put it in the sink. The way she uses knives require they be sharpened more often but I take care of that. She has been taking good care of the Spyderco kitchen knives. After using one she lays it down where it won't get an edge ding. No dropping it in the sink or using the dishwasher. We'll see how she feels about this one. I might get a blade cover for the knife. Once in a while when I put a knife up on the magnetic thing on the wall I drop it. I don't want to risk damaging the edge. Being a plain edge though I can easily keep it sharp and fix any tiny dings in the edge but I don't want to have to fix anything. If the knife is used properly I shouldn't need to touch it up for a long time. But, if wife doesn't want to use this knife with the care I want it used with I'll probably sell it or trade it. I know I won't use it enough to justify having it. I hope she wants to keep it. But we all have our opinions on what something is worth. If the performance of this knife isn't "better" enough for her to be willing to go to the extra care when using it that's her decision. If that's the case I'll just keep the knife out of reach for use. And if it isn't used I'll probably let it go. I may see if my son wants it. :)

Here are pictures.








Jack