Title change:Not impressed with Spyderco Delica 4

[The Mastiff]

Cliff, I figure we will hear from Spyderco if we are over stepping our boundaries. One thing I've learned is I don't try to think I know what is best for Spyderco. When things need changing one word from Sal, or Kristi and things happen.

Occasionally I have to snap at someone here. I do it because they stepped on my tail, not because I presume to think I know what's best for Spyderco. I control my behavior, and let Spyderco control the forum when it's needed.

Stick to teaching those like me that are here to learn and give your need to be in control a vacation . :)

joe

[Cliff Stamp]

We would prefer not to discuss a customer's problem on the forum, unless there is a specific need to do so (eg: refinement).

Sal, that isn't the actual point, the point is simply this - if someone is going to make a public complaint would you rather them make it here or in another forum? This thread and others like it cause people to post the complaints in other forums where you don't see them, where you can't respond to them and where the problems go unsolved and the client simply gets more frustrated. How can you possibly see this as positive?

As a direct question, I ask you as I asked HS above - if you went into a store and made a complaint about a brand new product and the rep told you the problem was on your end and in response to this you became upset as it made no sense to you at all from what you knew that your behavior could have caused it. In this situation do you think that the sensible thing for the CS representative to do would be to call over every other person in the store to have them point out your ignorance and the absurd nature that you didn't see it? If this was done would it encourage you to support that company?

Do you honestly think that if that was done in an actual store and the video went public there would not be a severe response by the company towards those employees? Why then do you not only allow but encourage that same kind of constant dogpiling on the forum?

[Bodog]

Cliff, with all due respect, I haven't seen anything from Sal that makes me think he likes that kind of dogpiling. He tries to keep people calm by reminding people that the point is to inform and educate based on experience and knowledge. If people go off on their own and start dogpiling others, that's not what has been stated as acceptable. Sal does what he does and we as customers and fans do what we do. I don't blame you for trying to reign that kind of behavior in as its unbecoming an informed client base. Sal tries to do the same and that's very apparent from his multiple posts regarding this kind of stuff. If people continue to dogpile against the Sal's wishes, what's he supposed to do? Start banning everyone? At what point does that ban hammer stop falling? Then people who are trying to educate and discuss the pros are in danger of feeling as cast aside as the people who criticize the cons. All a man can do is try to keep the peace.

[Ankerson]

Do you honestly think that if that was done in an actual store and the video went public there would not be a severe response by the company towards those employees? Why then do you not only allow but encourage that same kind of constant dogpiling on the forum?

Doggpiling works both ways...

How many times have we seen threads on the internet were a bunch of people whine and cry like a bunch of little girls while others make up fairy tails?

Some forums are worse in that regard than others as they encourage the whining and little girl behavior.

Some people shouldn't throw stones in glass houses.

[sal]

Hi Cliff,

I agree with you on all scores. I'd rather discuss it here, although I must admit that if there is a real "Hey Rube" on another forum, often someone will call it to my attention.

As Bodog stated, I don't care for the "dogpiles" nor do I care for the "digs" and disrespect shown for opinions that might not be agreed with. I can only continue to work at the issues and try to bring everyone I can to a higher plain of discussion. I don't have a magic wand. I don't want to play cop and enforcer. I would prefer that job be done by the rest of us....and done in a civilized and respectful manner of education rather than argument. It does take time, and patience. More often than not, it's a newer poster with a problem that upsets the cart and more often than not, the regulars here assist in the sorting of the issues. There are still a few with issues to resolve, and I'll work with them as well. I see it as a group effort, all with patience and understanding. Sometimes it's more challenging, to be sure, but we're here for the long haul and I believe the effort (sometimes extra effort) will show results.

sal

[ChrisinHove]

Re-reading this thread, I think that the OP was treated entirely courteously, but in his own mind he was being rooked by Spyderco and I doubt any amount of well intended advice or comment will have sufficed. He came to bury Ceasar, not to praise him.

In fact, the only behaviour I could interpret as "dogpiling" was onto Cliff, and although it is often unnecessarily and uncomfortably pointed, he must be used to that by now! A devils advocate is a genuinely good thing on an enthusiast's forum, but it can't be a pleasant position at times.

The computer store analogy is also flawed in this case, as the matter was being separately resolved by CS.

A better one is of an irate customer storming out of the CS department and having a rant at the people in the queue for the tills. Unlike most queues however, rather than avert their eyes, move away or call social services, it looks to me like the folk in THIS queue try to help.

Merry Christmas everyone!

[Ankerson]

Re-reading this thread, I think that the OP was treated entirely courteously, but in his own mind he was being rooked by Spyderco and I doubt any amount of well intended advice or comment will have sufficed. He came to bury Ceasar, not to praise him.

In fact, the only behaviour I could interpret as "dogpiling" was onto Cliff, and although it is often unnecessarily and uncomfortably pointed, he must be used to that by now! A devils advocate is a genuinely good thing on an enthusiast's forum, but it can't be a pleasant position at times.

The computer store analogy is also flawed in this case, as the matter was being separately resolved by CS.

A better one is of an irate customer storming out of the CS department and having a rant at the people in the queue for the tills. Unlike most queues however, rather than avert their eyes, move away or call social services, it looks to me like the folk in THIS queue try to help.

Merry Christmas everyone!

I think some people tend to like drama or like to create some sort of drama than others, I never really understood those types of people so I generally tend to stay away from them in real life.

Drama Queens and Divas..

Kinda like a sewing circle in a lot of ways.

[Ankerson]

The typical rules or recommendations of bringing up a problem on an internet forum are:

1. Pictures, Pictures !, Pictures !!! because without pictures it didn't happen, how are people supposed to know that the OP even owns the knife in the 1st place without pictures?

2. Try and voice the issue in a clear manner, try and make some kind of sense in the 1st post of what the problem is and not make it sound like belly aching in a rude manner as that 1st post generally sets the tone for the rest of the thread. If the thread starts out abrasive or abusive it will usually continue on that way for the duration.

3. When on a Company Sponsored forum starting out with things like (The Company Sucks) or the (Product Sucks) isn't going to encourage positive responses in general.

4. When commenting in a thread especially when talking about some of the hotter topics, more expensive knives are hotter topics, show proof that you actually own one as in pictures or it typically won't go very well as nobody will believe you and think you are a troll or making up stories.

Simple rules or lets say recommendations to make a members experience more pleasant overall.

For the most part here the members seem to be very helpful in general almost all of the time, if not Sal or one of the Moderators usually jump in to help.

[Bodog]

The typical rules or recommendations of bringing up a problem on an internet forum are:

1. Pictures, Pictures !, Pictures !!! because without pictures it didn't happen, how are people supposed to know that the OP even owns the knife in the 1st place without pictures?

2. Try and voice the issue in a clear manner, try and make some kind of sense in the 1st post of what the problem is and not make it sound like belly aching in a rude manner as that 1st post generally sets the tone for the rest of the thread. If the thread starts out abrasive or abusive it will usually continue on that way for the duration.

3. When on a Company Sponsored forum starting out with things like (The Company Sucks) or the (Product Sucks) isn't going to encourage positive responses in general.

4. When commenting in a thread especially when talking about some of the hotter topics, more expensive knives are hotter topics, show proof that you actually own one as in pictures or it typically won't go very well as nobody will believe you and think you are a troll or making up stories.

Simple rules or lets say recommendations to make a members experience more pleasant overall.

For the most part here the members seem to be very helpful in general almost all of the time, if not Sal or one of the Moderators usually jump in to help.

How about not making smart assed, inflammatory, useless comments when someone makes an observation that differs from yours? I can think of at least one guy that seems to have a problem with that.

[FCM415]

Cliff Stamp is a great man. He's worth about four of you.

[Ankerson]

The typical rules or recommendations of bringing up a problem on an internet forum are:

1. Pictures, Pictures !, Pictures !!! because without pictures it didn't happen, how are people supposed to know that the OP even owns the knife in the 1st place without pictures?

2. Try and voice the issue in a clear manner, try and make some kind of sense in the 1st post of what the problem is and not make it sound like belly aching in a rude manner as that 1st post generally sets the tone for the rest of the thread. If the thread starts out abrasive or abusive it will usually continue on that way for the duration.

3. When on a Company Sponsored forum starting out with things like (The Company Sucks) or the (Product Sucks) isn't going to encourage positive responses in general.

4. When commenting in a thread especially when talking about some of the hotter topics, more expensive knives are hotter topics, show proof that you actually own one as in pictures or it typically won't go very well as nobody will believe you and think you are a troll or making up stories.

Simple rules or lets say recommendations to make a members experience more pleasant overall.

For the most part here the members seem to be very helpful in general almost all of the time, if not Sal or one of the Moderators usually jump in to help.

How about not making smart assed, inflammatory, useless comments when someone makes an observation that differs from yours? I can think of at least one guy that seems to have a problem with that.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on a public forum.

Different people post in different ways typically so it's best to grow a thicker skin as things won't always be Rose Peddles and Puppies, it is the internet in the end.

[FCM415]

Nope. Cliff was right.

[Ankerson]

I think the thread and the responses were very tame and showed a lot of restraint on part of the members here and that shows 1st hand how great this forum really can be.

It could have been bad very easily.

[jmh58]

Did the OP get his knife back yet?? Is he happy?? John :)

[Ankerson]

Did the OP get his knife back yet?? Is he happy?? John :)

We don't know yet. :confused:

[Bodog]

In this derailed discussion, it seems like only ONE is of the opinion that the OP was made to look stupid, wrong, and piled on to rub it in. No one else who read this thread can post and honestly say that - THAT is what happened here. Not any of Cliff's friends, not one random hit and runner... Just Cliff.

Why is that?

I think that if you convince yourself beforehand that everyone responding to OP was doing so to make him FEEL stupid or wrong... Then, it's a forgone conclusion if read cynically like he does.The thing is, forum members here who do not have any agenda (at this point, everyone except Cliff), cannot see it that way.

I invite everyone to read this entire thread. Given what was presented by the OP (unfortunately, it was edited and is now milder) and what the forum had to work with (OP gave NO details such as anything out of place or bent... ZERO, just disappointment, criticism and a claim that CS lied to cover up), can anyone actually agree with Cliff's stance? I especially want Cliff's friends to speak up... Is this community at large really this monster that Cliff makes it out to be? There WAS a couple of snarky responses but any community anywhere in the world with a large enough sample size will give you that as we are all individuals after all. Even those seemed to have a productive endgame. I predict that if you are impartial, you will see that members were responding one after another to share their experience with lint (since OP called BS Spyderco diagnosing it as the problem). You cannot just ASSUME that everyone was doing so with malice and masquerade it as fact. What kind of science man are you?

SO the question returns to... Why keep coming back? You have a forum you named after yourself where you have TOTAL control. I asked this a few pages ago and by coincidence or what, you posted a thread presenting an exciting metallurgy based study. I feel like it was a way to remind your friends that you are important. Just my opinion of course. You know that you may be wrong... Ive seen guys like you. You hate to be wrong...This very thread, a great example like many in the past... You can't stop...You cannot admit it. But everyone seems to think that you are Cliff. How do you sleep at night?

I don't have a problem with what Cliff has said. I do believe he's probably carrying some grudges from other arenas to this specific thread, though.

[Evil D]

I like turtles!

[Bodog]

The typical rules or recommendations of bringing up a problem on an internet forum are:

1. Pictures, Pictures !, Pictures !!! because without pictures it didn't happen, how are people supposed to know that the OP even owns the knife in the 1st place without pictures?

2. Try and voice the issue in a clear manner, try and make some kind of sense in the 1st post of what the problem is and not make it sound like belly aching in a rude manner as that 1st post generally sets the tone for the rest of the thread. If the thread starts out abrasive or abusive it will usually continue on that way for the duration.

3. When on a Company Sponsored forum starting out with things like (The Company Sucks) or the (Product Sucks) isn't going to encourage positive responses in general.

4. When commenting in a thread especially when talking about some of the hotter topics, more expensive knives are hotter topics, show proof that you actually own one as in pictures or it typically won't go very well as nobody will believe you and think you are a troll or making up stories.

Simple rules or lets say recommendations to make a members experience more pleasant overall.

For the most part here the members seem to be very helpful in general almost all of the time, if not Sal or one of the Moderators usually jump in to help.

How about not making smart assed, inflammatory, useless comments when someone makes an observation that differs from yours? I can think of at least one guy that seems to have a problem with that.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on a public forum.

Different people post in different ways typically so it's best to grow a thicker skin as things won't always be Rose Peddles and Puppies, it is the internet in the end.

The problem comes from people that set out rules like yours and have chosen to not impose those rules on themselves. When someone says look, you're pretty guilty of this stuff yourself, you can't, or at least shouldn't, come back with a defense like "this is the Internet, suck it up Frances" and be taken seriously. If you come at people with rules, make sure you follow them yourself before chastising someone else for not following the same rules you choose not to follow.

Having said that, I agree with the general conduct type guide you listed. Just make sure you follow them, too, and don't tell someone to suck it up when you are told that you don't follow those general courtesy guidelines yourself. Say to yourself, hey man, this guy's not attacking me, he's trying to help. At least don't dog on others when they come at you like you come at them because they can then say the same thing: this is the Internet, suck it up. That's a terrible view. Be as accepting towards others as you want them to accept you. What goes around comes around. Respectfully stated.

[Ankerson]

The typical rules or recommendations of bringing up a problem on an internet forum are:

1. Pictures, Pictures !, Pictures !!! because without pictures it didn't happen, how are people supposed to know that the OP even owns the knife in the 1st place without pictures?

2. Try and voice the issue in a clear manner, try and make some kind of sense in the 1st post of what the problem is and not make it sound like belly aching in a rude manner as that 1st post generally sets the tone for the rest of the thread. If the thread starts out abrasive or abusive it will usually continue on that way for the duration.

3. When on a Company Sponsored forum starting out with things like (The Company Sucks) or the (Product Sucks) isn't going to encourage positive responses in general.

4. When commenting in a thread especially when talking about some of the hotter topics, more expensive knives are hotter topics, show proof that you actually own one as in pictures or it typically won't go very well as nobody will believe you and think you are a troll or making up stories.

Simple rules or lets say recommendations to make a members experience more pleasant overall.

For the most part here the members seem to be very helpful in general almost all of the time, if not Sal or one of the Moderators usually jump in to help.

How about not making smart assed, inflammatory, useless comments when someone makes an observation that differs from yours? I can think of at least one guy that seems to have a problem with that.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on a public forum.

Different people post in different ways typically so it's best to grow a thicker skin as things won't always be Rose Peddles and Puppies, it is the internet in the end.

The problem comes from people that set out rules like yours and have chosen to not impose those rules on themselves. When someone says look, you're pretty guilty of this stuff yourself, you can't, or at least shouldn't, come back with a defense like "this is the Internet, suck it up Frances" and be taken seriously. If you come at people with rules, make sure you follow them yourself before chastising someone else for not following the same rules you choose not to follow.

Having said that, I agree with the general conduct type guide you listed. Just make sure you follow them, too, and don't tell someone to suck it up when you are told that you don't follow those general courtesy guidelines yourself. Say to yourself, hey man, this guy's not attacking me, he's trying to help. At least don't dog on others when they come at you like you come at them because they can then say the same thing: this is the Internet, suck it up. That's a terrible view. Be as accepting towards others as you want them to accept you. What goes around comes around. Respectfully stated.

Actually I do follow my own rules.

The reason why I haven't been banned form or ran off just about every knife forum on the internet.

Yeah, once in awhile I do post in a more abrasive manner and I hear about too when I do, I don't do it quite as often as I used to back in the old days of the internet, we all have to nicer these days in general.

But if someone does attack me they will get it back 10 fold every single time, I can and will take up for myself on the net.

[Johnnie1801]

I like turtles!

I like Ninja Turtles!