Title change:Not impressed with Spyderco Delica 4

[Ankerson]

I was in a computer store today and watched a customer bring in a computer they just bought and be very irate as it didn't work. The guy behind the counter brought it in back,fired it up and it worked fine. The client then was adamant that it didn't work and didn't accept the fact that it worked for the guy there. They were using far stronger language than was used by the OP and if the clerk had called out the rest of the guys who worked there and gangpiled the client then that likely would not have resolved the problem, in fact the manager would likely fire them for it.

I know the clerk and I walked over and asked the client if I could help. I asked them a few basic questions and determined a likely reason which was essentially their fault and something they were ignorant of something that was very obvious to me. Now since they were not freaking at me it was pretty easy to be neutral.

Used to work in the Computer industry repairing and building computers so I have a good idea of how it was. LOL

I would have the customers drop them off and leave them, sometimes there wouldn't be anything wrong with them, other times.... Well it would take a few days until they got them back. Most of the time all they needed was a good cleaning up software wise, interior blown out, a driver update or virus removal.

The old saying in the industry was 99.9% of the problems are between the chair and the keyboard and it was usually dead spot on.

I don't think there was any reason to be rude to the customer though, the hey there isn't anything wrong with it just makes them feel stupid and they get defensive right away. There are better ways around it like just telling them it needs to be looked at some more and to come back later. Then just do the basic cleanup etc and once they come back ask them if they had any questions and then go over what they might have been doing wrong in a around about way.

Embarrassing the customer is not the best way to go about it and a lot of people are apprehensive about computers anyway and to make them feel stupid and like they have wasted their time will often lead to more problems than not. That's with face to face help or phone support, I have done both.

That situation sounds like a training issue to me on the part of Management and the whole thing should have been handled differently, the Manager in me is showing I suppose, I wouldn't have been happy at all with the employee.

[hunterseeker5]

What was baffling me wasn't that someone couldn't figure out lint was caught in their lock mechanism, what baffled me was how the OP was so certain it was NOT that. While your argument holds to an extent, that is to say someone with less knowledge wouldn't recognize something which would be obvious to someone with more knowledge/experience, I would think that would put you in a position of struggling to refute the assertions of the person in the stronger position.

The assumption you are making here is that :

-the OP is wrong
-the response is right

and, this is the critical part, this is obvious to both parties. Just think about if it is sensible to make that kind of conclusion in general. Look at it as Rawls does for example in how he describes how to do just/fair analysis.

I ask you again, have you really never been in a situation where something went wrong with a new purchase you made, you were told that you were part of the problem, and the reason provided made absolutely no sense to you at all based on what you knew and this lead you to being frustrated and suspect you may be given a cop-out? In this position is it then any way at all sensible for the person to keep lamenting your ignorance and further for this to be joined by ~100 replies of the same as they called in friends and family and pointed our your ignorance in public.

I was in a computer store today and watched a customer bring in a computer they just bought and be very irate as it didn't work. The guy behind the counter brought it in back,fired it up and it worked fine. The client then was adamant that it didn't work and didn't accept the fact that it worked for the guy there. They were using far stronger language than was used by the OP and if the clerk had called out the rest of the guys who worked there and gangpiled the client then that likely would not have resolved the problem, in fact the manager would likely fire them for it.

I know the clerk and I walked over and asked the client if I could help. I asked them a few basic questions and determined a likely reason which was essentially their fault and something they were ignorant of something that was very obvious to me. Now since they were not freaking at me it was pretty easy to be neutral.

--

As for the whole sports bar analogy, if you have issues with MMA for example, and you want a rational discussion it is likely that it would not be productive to go into a bar playing Jones vs DC and expect productive criticism. What your argument actually concludes is that for people to have rational and unbiased discussion of Spyderco products they should not do it on the Spyderco forum.

I see your point. I maintain however that, for a mechanical problem analysis, you need mechanical hypotheses. I have been dissatisfied with new products before, but typically when presented with a rational explanation for the behavior I either grudgingly accepted it or had an alternative hypothesis; I'm typically not the sort to argue that someone else's observations are wrong based on nothing other than a desire for them to be wrong. Don't get me wrong, I'll argue the interpretation of said observations all day long if I have an alternate perspective on them, but I struggle to rationally discard a perfectly valid observation in favor of personal whim.

So while I see your position, that is it being fairly common for someone having difficulty accepting that they were simply making a mistake and their issue was their own creation, I fail to see how that makes it any less their fault or how asking someone suffering such an issue to approach the problem simply and rationally with their own explanation is any less valid.

As for the sports bar analogy..... did I miss something?

[Ankerson]

What was baffling me wasn't that someone couldn't figure out lint was caught in their lock mechanism, what baffled me was how the OP was so certain it was NOT that. While your argument holds to an extent, that is to say someone with less knowledge wouldn't recognize something which would be obvious to someone with more knowledge/experience, I would think that would put you in a position of struggling to refute the assertions of the person in the stronger position.

The assumption you are making here is that :

-the OP is wrong
-the response is right

and, this is the critical part, this is obvious to both parties. Just think about if it is sensible to make that kind of conclusion in general. Look at it as Rawls does for example in how he describes how to do just/fair analysis.

I ask you again, have you really never been in a situation where something went wrong with a new purchase you made, you were told that you were part of the problem, and the reason provided made absolutely no sense to you at all based on what you knew and this lead you to being frustrated and suspect you may be given a cop-out? In this position is it then any way at all sensible for the person to keep lamenting your ignorance and further for this to be joined by ~100 replies of the same as they called in friends and family and pointed our your ignorance in public.

I was in a computer store today and watched a customer bring in a computer they just bought and be very irate as it didn't work. The guy behind the counter brought it in back,fired it up and it worked fine. The client then was adamant that it didn't work and didn't accept the fact that it worked for the guy there. They were using far stronger language than was used by the OP and if the clerk had called out the rest of the guys who worked there and gangpiled the client then that likely would not have resolved the problem, in fact the manager would likely fire them for it.

I know the clerk and I walked over and asked the client if I could help. I asked them a few basic questions and determined a likely reason which was essentially their fault and something they were ignorant of something that was very obvious to me. Now since they were not freaking at me it was pretty easy to be neutral.

--

As for the whole sports bar analogy, if you have issues with MMA for example, and you want a rational discussion it is likely that it would not be productive to go into a bar playing Jones vs DC and expect productive criticism. What your argument actually concludes is that for people to have rational and unbiased discussion of Spyderco products they should not do it on the Spyderco forum.

I see your point. I maintain however that, for a mechanical problem analysis, you need mechanical hypotheses. I have been dissatisfied with new products before, but typically when presented with a rational explanation for the behavior I either grudgingly accepted it or had an alternative hypothesis; I'm typically not the sort to argue that someone else's observations are wrong based on nothing other than a desire for them to be wrong. Don't get me wrong, I'll argue the interpretation of said observations all day long if I have an alternate perspective on them, but I struggle to rationally discard a perfectly valid observation in favor of personal whim.

So while I see your position, that is it being fairly common for someone having difficulty accepting that they were simply making a mistake and their issue was their own creation, I fail to see how that makes it any less their fault or how asking someone suffering such an issue to approach the problem simply and rationally with their own explanation is any less valid.

As for the sports bar analogy..... did I miss something?

Good post, I am for the most part the same way, I won't argue for the sake of arguing either if the other person has a logical explanation that is rational I will generally for the most part except it and move on.

[The Deacon]

As for the whole sports bar analogy, if you have issues with MMA for example, and you want a rational discussion it is likely that it would not be productive to go into a bar playing Jones vs DC and expect productive criticism. What your argument actually concludes is that for people to have rational and unbiased discussion of Spyderco products they should not do it on the Spyderco forum.

As usual Cliff, you missed the primary point. There were two other threads started around the same time as this one by folks who had problems. Those folks chose to present their issues in a civil tone. They received civil responses in return. Funny how that works.

[Ankerson]

As for the whole sports bar analogy, if you have issues with MMA for example, and you want a rational discussion it is likely that it would not be productive to go into a bar playing Jones vs DC and expect productive criticism. What your argument actually concludes is that for people to have rational and unbiased discussion of Spyderco products they should not do it on the Spyderco forum.

As usual Cliff, you missed the primary point. There were two other threads started around the same time as this one by folks who had problems. Those folks chose to present their issues in a civil tone. They received civil responses in return. Funny how that works.

Paul,

Yeah, that's why I didn't respond to that part of that post.

On the internet if one posts in a aggressive/abrasive manner they can usually expect the same in the responses they receive, that's just how it usually works as the OP sets the tone.

It's not usually the smartest thing to do to go on a company forum and blast the company etc on a public forum if what they want is help, not exactly the best way to go about things.

Jim

[Blerv]

Or if you're going to blast the company on its own forum have something a bit mkre substantial than cotton fluff. Or, I don't know, have a better counter-point than "I don't buy it!".

[Ankerson]

Or if you're going to blast the company on its own forum have something a bit mkre substantial than cotton fluff. Or, I don't know, have a better counter-point than "I don't buy it!".

Yeah, he could have worded it better.... Like:

"Hey I have this (Knife) that the lock failed on and I sent it in to get fixed and they said it was lint. I don't understand how or why that would happen, any help or explanation would be great."

[Cliff Stamp]

[...]
So while I see your position, that is it being fairly common for someone having difficulty accepting that they were simply making a mistake and their issue was their own creation, I fail to see how that makes it any less their fault or how asking someone suffering such an issue to approach the problem simply and rationally with their own explanation is any less valid.

Again, step back from the situation and look at it with an unbiased perspective. Your approach hinges on the fact that the client is wrong and you are right. You have even said, surely they know that the solution has to be of type-X. Why do you know that? Is it reasonable to assume everyone should? They don't know that, you think you know it, but surely you would not argue that this is an absolute position. If you do, then this alone will aggravate a lot of people.

Hence why in the vast majority of customer interactions this question resolves them or at least moves you towards it - "Sorry you had a frustrating experience, I can understand why that would make you upset. What would you have liked to have happened and how can we resolve the situation for you?" . At a minimum this gets people talking and that itself tends to ramp the situation down because most people will level quickly when they see their frustration is understood as that is actually why most people actually complain in the first place.

Again, just imagine if you had a complaint in a store and if you were wrong the service rep called over every other rep in the store to also point out you were wrong and then invited all the other "informed" customers to also tell you that you were wrong and further take this to the point it was obvious you were at fault implying some lack of basic ability on your part.

Are you really telling me honestly that is how you would want that situation to go?

As for the sports bar analogy..... did I miss something?

It was in another post where this forum was compared to a sports bar, which I agree, is very much the current tone of this forum. However I don't see that as a positive thing. In fact because of this I no longer advocate people who have complaints about Spyderco present them in this forum. I used to have a very strong stance that if you were going to make a public complaint about a manufacturer you should do it in their forum. In fact I used to take it one step further and note than anyone who complained to me about Spyderco's products or make a post on the T0.1M form to make sure to voice it on Spyderco's form. I did this because it allows Spyderco to make informed responses.

I don't do this any more and I don't see this as a positive thing for Spyderco. Yes, it does remove complaints from this forum but it doesn't stop them from happening, it just makes the same complaints appear on other forums / places and they continue and are NOT resolved so the people keep making them and often times have conclusions which are completely unfounded. That to me seems trivially and obvious wrong. From a customer service perspective, if you force people to make complaints not to you (where you can deal with them) but in other places in public this is obviously horrible practice.

But Spyderco seems to feel otherwise, but its their company, they run the CS as they want obviously. I only replied to you on the issues because of past interaction I was surprised by your response.

[gbelleh]

This thread is sill going? Again, it's not the complaints that people take issue with, it's simply the tone. I don't care if you walk into a sports bar, a church, a science lab, or a customer service center, if you're polite, you always get a better reaction, or better service, and a better experience for all.

This is one of the most civil and polite forums around. So when directing people here to state their issues, just remind them to take a moment to cool off, and be polite and unbiased themselves. Those who do, are welcomed and receive the help they need. It's that simple. But if they choose to come here using inflammatory and accusatory language, they can expect a rougher time (here, and in the sports bar, the church, the science lab, or the customer service center).

[Ankerson]

As for the sports bar analogy..... did I miss something?

It was in another post where this forum was compared to a sports bar, which I agree, is very much the current tone of this forum. However I don't see that as a positive thing. In fact because of this I no longer advocate people who have complaints about Spyderco present them in this forum. I used to have a very strong stance that if you were going to make a public complaint about a manufacturer you should do it in their forum. In fact I used to take it one step further and note than anyone who complained to me about Spyderco's products or make a post on the T0.1M form to make sure to voice it on Spyderco's form. I did this because it allows Spyderco to make informed responses.

I don't do this any more and I don't see this as a positive thing for Spyderco. Yes, it does remove complaints from this forum but it doesn't stop them from happening, it just makes the same complaints appear on other forums / places and they continue and are NOT resolved so the people keep making them and often times have conclusions which are completely unfounded. That to me seems trivially and obvious wrong. From a customer service perspective, if you force people to make complaints not to you (where you can deal with them) but in other places in public this is obviously horrible practice.

But Spyderco seems to feel otherwise, but its their company, they run the CS as they want obviously. I only replied to you on the issues because of past interaction I was surprised by your response.

Cliff,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, that includes you.

However this is mine:

This is the Spyderco Company forum so one would expect that the people here would tend to like Spyderco knives or they wouldn't generally be here, that's seems to be logical.

So taking that into consideration and generally speaking the people here feel strongly about Spyderco in a positive way so one would tend to expect some bias towards the Companies products.

Makes sense so far?

That doesn't really differ from any other Company sponsored forum no matter what typical products are being discussed, could be cars, watches, whatever.

Now, we have all sorts of different people from all over the World on the forums and nobody is the same and they all have their own opinions and how they react to different things. Some are more lets say thicker skinned so not all that much tends to get to them so they aren't generally bothered by the majority of what goes on or are just used to it. Then we have the thin skinned types that everything gets to them, maybe their mommies didn't hold them enough when they were young so something like that. They typically whine about everything like little 12 YO girls, we see more of those types as time goes on, likely has to do with today's Society. Personally I don't cut them any slack because I don't have the time nor the patience to deal with them and their mommy or daddy issues.

But I do try and be nicer these days, it's hard sometimes to break out of the old ways of the internet so sometimes I will post something on the abrasive side and believe me when I say I hear about it when I do. :D

But if someone wants to be a whiny little girl that's looking for someone to walk on eggshells around them they aren't going to find them in general on the internet forums.

[sal]

Interesting discussion.

We would prefer not to discuss a customer's problem on the forum, unless there is a specific need to do so (eg: refinement). We have a very competent staff in customer service and they deal successfully with hundreds of customers per week. I don't object to customers posting their concerns, but will try to keep it civil and seek a solution. I don't think anger is a good behavior. The thought process is affected by the anger and we learn less. I do like to know if our products have an issue that can be resolved and improved. We are always creating new concepts and putting them into the market and very few are perfect out of the chute.

The questioning of our customer service or knowedge and ability lets us see how our customers feel and think about us and our products. A good dialogue will usually bring knowledge and understanding to all involved.

In my opinion, a good forum is interesting. Knowledge and understanding about some very deep real world concepts are possible (eg: the edge, business philosophy's, values, etc.). Some formums are just a free for all for arguments. We have a "teachers and students" and we trade places every day. We're fortunate to have some very bright people here. They don't always agree. That's ok. I don't agree with everything Cliff. or others might present. But hopefully the format permits us the opportunity to discuss the concepts and come to our own conclusions. Arguments over "who's right or wrong" are rare and diminishing and civil disagreement more common. After all, we don't want a boring forum either. :D The discussion in this thread demonstrates that much can be gleaned from a simple "lint in the lock" question.

sal

[Evil D]

^^Some of the BEST discussions I've ever read on any forum came from a total derailment from the original topic.

[Ankerson]

This thread is sill going? Again, it's not the complaints that people take issue with, it's simply the tone. I don't care if you walk into a sports bar, a church, a science lab, or a customer service center, if you're polite, you always get a better reaction, or better service, and a better experience for all.

This is one of the most civil and polite forums around. So when directing people here to state their issues, just remind them to take a moment to cool off, and be polite and unbiased themselves. Those who do, are welcomed and receive the help they need. It's that simple. But if they choose to come here using inflammatory and accusatory language, they can expect a rougher time (here, and in the sports bar, the church, the science lab, or the customer service center).

Being in Management for most of my life I agree.

If someone wants something from me or say they want things to go their way they had better talk to me like a person without yelling, cussing etc, now they can say what they want with out all of that and get their point across.

If so i will listen to their concerns and bend over backwards to make them happy.

However if they are generally a jerk etc they won't get anything from me, I mean nothing and it doesn't matter if they are right, it's over before it even starts.

[Bodog]

I posted some pretty damning photos of what another knife company called a good product on another forum. Now, this company doesn't have stock in the forum, but the moderators all seem to have extreme bias against anyone who criticizes this certain company, whether it's warranted or not. Posts get deleted, people get banned, and the moderators allow a dog pile on anyone who says anything truly critical of this company, no matter how polite the post was. That's a truly terrible practice. That certain forum had essentially become the de facto company forum. There's no independence there. No allowance for critical thought or unbiased reviews concerning this one specific company. I don't see Sal having a big problem with people coming here and discussing the pros and cons of his products. I hope it stays that way. He truly seems to care if people are happy with what he's doing. I hope it stays that way, too. The biggest problem, it seems to me, is not people coming on here posting negative reviews of something, nor the people who try to teach that person something, nor that person thinking he's being suckered. The problem seems to be with the people who want to shut up any kind of real dialogue. I hope this site isn't supposed to be for fanboys only. I hope it's a forum where people can come share their thoughts, both good and bad, and try to learn. It seems that is what it is, for now at least. In my humble view, I don't want people thinking they can't post a problem, even if they're a little or even a lot upset. As long as it's an honest review or critique and they're willing to listen to what's going on around them, then they should absolutely be allowed to speak their mind as long as they're at least reasonably civil. If they've somehow received a less than stellar product at whatever price they paid for it, that seems like something Sal has wanted to know. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but Sal hasn't seemed to me to be a big fan of people dogpiling on other people who speak critically of his products. He seems to be the kind of man who wants to educate and inform, not argue and bicker and make people feel like their concerns aren't valid. That education often comes when someone doesn't understand something, and that often causes at least some hostility in the mind of a man who doesn't understand what he's looking at. So absorb the hostility and turn it into a positive experience for the hostile person, don't make the negative situation worse by casting him aside. If there's a genuine problem, Sal is one of the first to speak up and correct it. He's an honorable man for doing so. If he wanted people with legitimate problems to be shut up because he can't stand hearing something less than great reviews, then that'd be news to me. Who are any of us to treat his other customers different than how HE treats them? It's his company, they're his customers, and we're along for the ride. As long as Sal's preaching to us all to treat people well, listen, learn, and to leave shiny footprints, we should abide by that in his house. This isn't that other forum where honest criticisms about specific companies won't be tolerated. This is Sal's house, and we should be learning and teaching in a way he'd approve of. That means letting people be themselves and speak their mind as long as they're not true butt nuggets.

[Ankerson]

This is actually one of the nicer forums on the internet and being a Company forum that really does say a lot about the Company and the members here.

[FCM415]

How dare you guys get in the way of the Stampish Inquisition.

[Ankerson]

Just read Cliff's latest post. He just continues to lambast the forum and its members. If it is really that bad why keep coming back? Don't you have a forum under your name where you can play God in?

I like Spyderco and this forum but I think for myself (as many members here know quite well ) ...And seriously, this is a clear over-reaction by Cliff. Judging from his last post...He's waiting, baiting for the next moment to cry wolf. We let him win every time by getting worked up... But we have to speak up for ourselves. It's a lose-lose. Basically, Cliff is a sophisticated troll. Yeah I said it. :D

Well you know. ROFL :D

Clearly IMO the funniest post in this thread. :)

You owe me a cup of coffee because I just spit it all over my monitor from laughing so hard. :eek:

I don't understand why he keeps coming back either, if it's as bad as he says it is why even bother you know?

If we are all that horrible and intolerable in his opinion for liking Spyderco products and being biased on the Company forum why would he keep subjecting himself to all of that torment?

Blasting the forum and it's members isn't going to help his cause very much either opinions aside, one can only kick a dog so many times until they get bitten, once they do one can't blame the dog for biting them.

Just a thought.

That said Cliff is entitled to his opinions just like the rest of us are.

[v8r]

I have found in the few years I have been on earth that there are some that are well educated, yet have very little common sense. I too was in management for several years in the automotive business, and have had to deal with several upset customers. Some had valid points , others did not.
The best Sal and his company can expect is that you cannot please everyone. They do a very good job of pleasing most. I have found that being calm and voicing your frustrations in a respectable manner will typically give a better outcome to a situation. I feel that most on this forum have attempted to help the OP, but what gets me the most frustrated is you have a select few members that feel they are more " Enlightened" than others. I typically refer to these individuals in my line of work as "Engineers" or folks that have book knowledge versus real world experience. They talk down to others because it makes them feel superior. Most of the time when they act this way they actually have the opposite effect.....they come off ignorant.

[JNewell]

This is actually one of the nicer forums on the internet and being a Company forum that really does say a lot about the Company and the members here.

Agreed, very true. :spyder:

[JNewell]

The questioning of our customer service or knowedge and ability lets us see how our customers feel and think about us and our products. A good dialogue will usually bring knowledge and understanding to all involved.

sal

You don't need anyone here to tell you this, but that's an unusual and unusually great perspective and attitude.