Steel Junkies: A new laminate S 90V clad with cpm 154 cm FYI

[Ed Schempp]

Thanks Bob for bringing us up to date with current products. Thanks again to Crucible, Carpenter, and Niagara for producing new and exciting products. I hope this is the first or many exciting new products from USA industry...Take Care...Ed

[nozh2002]

3. I can assure you this is all done in the USA and I'm willing to prove it by any means necessary. To imply that this is being done offshore is in the least incorrect and at the most damaging and libelous.

Sure it is incorrect and damaging. However nobody question where this laminate were made, if you read carefully - it was about Cruwear being outsourced. And you twisting this a bit as well as Sal avoiding answers raise more questions.

4. Everyone is correct that this is an expensive way to process an alloy so it may not be for everyone.

Reason to do laminates everywhere in the World is to make bade with premium cutting edge cheaper.
Reason to avoid high cost of grinding CPM S90V is to make final blade cheaper. It looks like in this case
lamination is done to make it more expensive. With average edge holding performance - what is the
point of that exercise?

[hardheart]

deleted.

[nsm]

All of the Cruwear and CPM Cruwear we buy is made in the USA. In fact, all of the steel we buy is melted and processed in the USA. This includes grades like D2, 440C as well as all of our CPM grades. All CPM is made and melted at Crucible. To say otherwise is not true. Is there any other way I can say it? Niagara Specialty Metals, Crucible nor Spyderco have anything to hide here.

The point of this exercise, as you say, is to further the enjoyment of those who want it. It is not for everyone, but there are clearly those who appreciate our combined efforts.

[Ankerson]

Sorry I'm so late to this thread. Thanks to Ed, Sal, Joe, Phil and Jim for their input, hard work, and kind words. Let me see if I can clear up a couple items here.
1. When we sought out to develop a composite alloy we wanted two well established grades that were compatible for heat treating and were available in CPM. We agreed with Ed that CPM 154 and CPM S90-V fit the bill. Now that we know it works we know there are other variations that can be made.
2. Before we try other variations, we have more of the same on order with Crucible. We are currently processing some CPM S90V plate that will be shipped to Crucible, canned with CPM 154 and HIP'd into a solid slab. We can then roll it into several thicknesses upon demand. (Sal, there will be three times as much made this time so we'll keep you up to date with our progress.)
3. I can assure you this is all done in the USA and I'm willing to prove it by any means necessary. To imply that this is being done offshore is in the least incorrect and at the most damaging and libelous.
4. Everyone is correct that this is an expensive way to process an alloy so it may not be for everyone.
5. We could order some CPM S60-V from Crucible but here has not been much demand for it. For the time being we are focusing on the grades that are in high demand and introducing new grades such as CPM Cruwear, CPM 4V and CPM 110-V.
I'll keep an eye on this thread in case you have any questions, concerns or suggestions. I want to truly thank you for your interest and support. Everyone I have dealt with in the knife community has been honorable, friendly and helpful.

Bob Shabala

Thanks Bob, glad to see you here. :)

Hopefully this new steel will take hold and we will see more of it and maybe other combinations in the future. :)

[Tally-ho]

So now we just need to figure out which Spyderco is going to get this steel in a sprint run...

Because of its zero grind, the Nilakka might benefit of a softer clad steel. The blade will be easier to sharpen.

[jabba359]

Reason to do laminates everywhere in the World is to make bade with premium cutting edge cheaper.
Reason to avoid high cost of grinding CPM S90V is to make final blade cheaper. It looks like in this case
lamination is done to make it more expensive. With average edge holding performance - what is the
point of that exercise?

Try reading point #1 of Bob's post again. It was done as a proof-of-concept to test out the process. That was the point of the exercise. Now that they have it working, it can be applied to steels that would benefit more from this type of cladding, such as a more brittle core with a softer cladding to make it less fragile.

[Ankerson]

Try reading point #1 of Bob's post again. It was done as a proof-of-concept to test out the process. That was the point of the exercise. Now that they have it working, it can be applied to steels that would benefit more from this type of cladding.

True, thinking about S125V and 15V personally although not sure how well they would work or if they could get the cores near full hardness in the clad. :confused:

[jabba359]

True, thinking about S125V and 15V personally although not sure how well they would work or if they could get the cores near full hardness in the clad. :confused:

Combine a S125V core with the theoretical CPM-Damascus cladding and I'm sold! :D

[Cliff Stamp]

Try reading point #1 of Bob's post again. It was done as a proof-of-concept to test out the process.

While this is a valid exercise, isn't that combination of steels an odd choice as it is very expensive and doesn't offer a functional advantage to the ELU. Compounding this is the announcement that even more of it is being made.

He does have a very valid question as an ELU.

As a maker sure, you are getting a more expensive material but your labour time is reduced so your output goes up thus you can produce a more expensive product in less time - great.

But again as the guy using the knife?

The other thing that stands out to me is again ignoring the actual function needs of the ELU in regards to the steel, this to me is a pretty grave concern because what you have is a steel being made because :

1) It has a very strong leverage because of existing branding

2) Deals with maker/manufacturer difficulties

3) Does not consider ELU viewpoint

The combination of those three is a very dangerous path for the ELU, though excellent for the maker/manufacturer.

[Ankerson]

While this is a valid exercise, isn't that combination of steels an odd choice as it is very expensive and doesn't offer a functional advantage to the ELU. Compounding this is the announcement that even more of it is being made.

He does have a very valid question as an ELU.

As a maker sure, you are getting a more expensive material but your labour time is reduced so your output goes up thus you can produce a more expensive product in less time - great.

But again as the guy using the knife?

The other thing that stands out to me is again ignoring the actual function needs of the ELU in regards to the steel, this to me is a pretty grave concern because what you have is a steel being made because :

1) It has a very strong leverage because of existing branding

2) Deals with maker/manufacturer difficulties

3) Does not consider ELU viewpoint

The combination of those three is a very dangerous path for the ELU, though excellent for the maker/manufacturer.

In the 1st post Ed said something about Kitchen knives and Folders as the ELU for the steel.

Due to the process I am thinking about fillet knives also along with boning knives and bird knives along with hunting knives like the South Fork in size.

It remains to be seen though how the steel will be used.

Imagine a fillet knife in this steel with the core at full hardness AND flexible. :D

Something like this one in CPM 154.

[hardheart]

I don't see the concern. I do not think the combination is that great, but that is for a couple of reasons, which allay any concerns I might have about trying to dupe the ELU. The outer cladding is CPM steel, had to be since they used powder and then did another round of HIP - and they chose CPM154. Is there a corrosion resistant CPM grade that is cheaper and suitable to the task? Is a new grade worth development at this time? They could powder 440C like Carpenter does, but other than not using moly, where is the benefit in cost and material properties? They used S90V at the core instead of S110V, 15V or S125V. The process is already expensive, and this is the first attempt, I think they've increased the cost sufficiently already without using more expensive grades that are harder to roll and may have scuttled the first billet. And as for what is better for the producer, it needs to be something they will still produce. I know of one existing production S110V knife, which was advertised with a 4 point spread on hardness, and mine came in at the bottom (58); and one production S125V knife with less than 100 total pieces in existence from two production runs, one which I spent a few months requesting the factory to make and brought 10 over to the US at my own expense and barely broke even selling over the course of two years.

Some of this steel cost over $100 a pound when purchased, and that isn't a laminate with another round of HIP added. There are very few custom makers who work with this much carbide content. Crucible and NSM have to keep the bottom line in mind in a market where 35,000 SAKs are made every day and there's going to be a single sprint run of Cruwear for a year. NSM can't count on Spyderco to purchase the bulk of all specialty laminates they produce, and they have to see where the demand lies first before they start rolling. How many makers are going to want a 15V core, if none of them have ever tested 15V? I have a 15V blade from Farid, and he doesn't think it makes as great a knife compared to other steels he uses. Phil Wilson is of a similar opinion, IIRC. There are issues they perceive at the edge with required thickness and limits in use which cladding won't alleviate.

Some of us have expensive tastes, and not always for practical intent. Do I think S90V isn't tough enough to demand a laminate, nope. Do I think CPM154 is the most economical cladding, nope. Is there much powder and plate on the shelves to make a cheaper selection, nope. I don't think 3G uses that great a core, either, but FK does well with it.

[sal]

Thanx for droping in Bob. Always appreciated.

Hi Vassili,

Thanx for your input and steel prefeences. Don't know what questions I didn't answer?

sal

[Ankerson]

I also had another thought also with the process in mind they could also use something like S90V/S90V, CPM 154/ CPM 154 and so on so the possibilities are really there.

[nsm]

Sal,
My pleasure. I heard there was some excitement over this project so I figured I'd drop in see what was going on. I had no idea what I was getting in to.

Bob

[jabba359]

While this is a valid exercise, isn't that combination of steels an odd choice as it is very expensive and doesn't offer a functional advantage to the ELU. Compounding this is the announcement that even more of it is being made.

He does have a very valid question as an ELU.

As a maker sure, you are getting a more expensive material but your labour time is reduced so your output goes up thus you can produce a more expensive product in less time - great.

But again as the guy using the knife?

The other thing that stands out to me is again ignoring the actual function needs of the ELU in regards to the steel, this to me is a pretty grave concern because what you have is a steel being made because :

1) It has a very strong leverage because of existing branding

2) Deals with maker/manufacturer difficulties

3) Does not consider ELU viewpoint

The combination of those three is a very dangerous path for the ELU, though excellent for the maker/manufacturer.

True, the S90V/154 may not make a whole lot of sense for the ELU, but the technology being developed does. I don't know if you pay much attention to Formula 1 racing, but teams such as Ferrari, Mercedes, Toyota, BMW and others develop technology at huge costs for their Formula 1 cars. The ELU isn't going to buy a F1 car nor the exact parts being used on the chassis or engine, but the technology that is developed there trickles down to the end user in a similar, but more ELU-conscious permutation. The racing shock technology developed for the Toyota F1 may end up in your Corolla, or BMW's fuel injection system may get adapted to their 300 series. The F1 cars themselves aren't useful to the ELU, but the technology can be used on something that does come in a beneficial package for the ELU.

Since the S90V/154 seems to have been designed as a test case for the process, I think it certainly benefits the ELU, but in a roundabout way. In your example of reduced production time for a custom maker, if it is taking less time, it's certainly possible that would more than offset the increased material cost. As the old adage goes, "Time is money." Even if the cost of the final item increases a little bit, for many it would be worth a shorter wait time for a custom, as the maker can turn them out faster and get through his order book at a more rapid rate. For some ELUs, that isn't a plus, but for other ELUs it certainly is.

I don't see how this can be of grave concern to the ELU. It sounds like this S90V/154 isn't being produced on a large scale (3x the initial quantity, which hardly anyone seems to have received, is still a small quantity). If the cost is too high and the benefits too low, people just won't pay money for it. It's not like Crucible has a monopoly on the steel market or that the existence of S90V/154 reduces our ability to purchase their other steels. Maybe I'm missing something, but how is it "a dangerous path for the ELU"? :confused:

[nozh2002]

Thanx for droping in Bob. Always appreciated.

Hi Vassili,

Thanx for your input and steel prefeences. Don't know what questions I didn't answer?

sal

This one:

From Crucible - nothing really.

But can you confirm that Cruwear is made in Europe and this is why you ship it from Florida?

For production I think CTS204P, CTS XHP and CTS B75P are pretty good steels - time of this pathetic CPM S30V is way overdue. And of course ZDP-189 is pretty good steel.

In general all steel from top ten will be nice to see in production.

http://nozh2002.blogspot.com/2011/07/ed ... sting.html

So far anything what Carpenter doing is better then other manufacturers steel. I like to see more steels from them - even if it has well known composition. Seeing CTS B30 performance I may assume their micromelt somehow superior to other's PM technologies. In this case will be nice to see CTS 20CP (which is similar by composition to CPM S60V - which for now is best in known to general public CATRA tests).

S60V - 1030
S90V - 1014
S30V - 541
154CM - 468

As well as Carpenter versions of CPM S90V and Vascowear will be interesting to see - I expect them being way better then from Crucible.

I remember you promised K390 late 2011, 110V promiced Jan 2012, #14 with CTS 204? It will be nice to see them finally.

[nozh2002]

This is what you sad first time:

3. I can assure you this is all done in the USA and I'm willing to prove it by any means necessary. To imply that this is being done offshore is in the least incorrect and at the most damaging and libelous.

For me "this is all done in the USA" means that you are talking about CPM S90V laminated by CPM 154.
As you may see it is different that you sad here:

All of the Cruwear and CPM Cruwear we buy is made in the USA. In fact, all of the steel we buy is melted and processed in the USA. This includes grades like D2, 440C as well as all of our CPM grades. All CPM is made and melted at Crucible. To say otherwise is not true. Is there any other way I can say it? Niagara Specialty Metals, Crucible nor Spyderco have anything to hide here.

Once you sad it this way - you do not need to say it other way. Let see some Cruwear in production.

For laminate I thing they rather laminate it when they lay powder in the form before cooking it into solid metal - way Damasteel was doing it while ago...
This should as well make it less pricy. But again no point using average performer like CPM S90V - it better be Cruwear.

[Cliff Stamp]

True, the S90V/154 may not make a whole lot of sense for the ELU, but the technology being developed does.

ZDP-189/ATS-34 has been used for quite some time, and cladding in general for steel is almost as old as steel.

If you wanted to actually claim to develop something and be revolutionary/exciting :

-differential placement of the carbides in the steel

Imagine a billet of 3V (just as an example) which had a carbide dispersion so that when it was heat treated the edge started at 65 HRC near the choil and smoothly graded to 45 HRV through the tip. At the same time imagine if it graded from the core to the sides and from the edge to the spine in the same manner.

(or did even one of them)

Or forget about hardness and think about microstructure and imagine a steel which when heat treated would have 95%+ martensite at the edge but blended to 25% retained austenite in the spine/sides/tip.

Now think about what that would mean for not only the maker/manufactuer but the actual ELU.

For me, I don't get much excited about a maker/manufacturer asking for a product which makes their work easier, what I do get interested in is when they ask for a product which allows them to make a better knife. This shows a very different level of focus from both the manufacturer and supplier.

The F1 cars themselves aren't useful to the ELU, but the technology can be used on something that does come in a beneficial package for the ELU.

That is kind of the point, I can't see any argument that this is an F1 car.

I don't see how this can be of grave concern to the ELU.

Because it is a material which is being designed based on :

-leveraging existing branding
-making life easier for the makers

And doesn't look at the functional benefits for the ELU.

Now imagine what would happen if that continued.

If you want a more concrete example :

Years ago on the Benchmade forum when the internets were much smaller, the question was asked how come more knives were not made in steels which worked well for knives instead of being made out of fan blade steel and how come the steels that were used did not get hardened as they are in cutting tools (M2 being an example).

The answer from the Benchmade rep was quite frank and very refreshing. There is an existing brand (perception of quality) on steels such as ATS-34 in the 60/62 HRC range. If you were to offer say M2 at 66 HRC then you have the expense of marketing that blade and dealing with the perceptions of non-stainless, high HRC concerns, etc. There was no question that there were better steels to use and better ways to use them - but it would not make Benchmade more money. Thus the ELU got an inferior product.

Now what Spyderco has done with this forum, among other things, is remove that concern to a great extent as they can with low cost (form hosting/interaction) create branding for a new product very easily due to leveraging this forum. It is an extremely intelligent and extremely efficient means of doing so.

Imagine a fillet knife in this steel with the core at full hardness AND flexible.

Flexibility, in regards to bending and returning to true is set by the distal taper. All you gain by making the cladding weaker is to allow the blade to take a set at a lower angle. I have used a S90V fillet knife from Phil, there is no issue as again he uses proper tapering to make the blade flex and return to true.

Cashen has wrote about this at great length as it was one of his pet peeves because of claims of flexibility, bending, etc. in regards to blades and inferences made about the properties of the steel when in fact what is being seen is the influence of geometry.

[kbuzbee]

I had no idea what I was getting in to.

Glad you popped in, Bob.

On behalf of the forum, let me offer apologies. Things are usually a lot more civil around here.

Ken