SD advice

[i.v]

This is the second time I'm writing this because the first time my browser crashed so I'll be brief (at least I'll try).

As all of you probably noticed, todays world is becoming increasingly intolerant about knives, especially as weapons.
Where i live one could get into serious trouble just for carrying a knife for the purpose of SD, not to mention using it.

What I'd like to offer here is a different approach when thinking about SD, one that i think would be better for us in helping the effort of making a better name for knives and knife collectors world wide.
What to use for SD?
The first and most important thing I can recommend for anyone concerned with SD is to learn some sort of martial art, any martial art or at least training in the tool that you wish to use in order to defend yourself.

Secondly, the tool itself, there are many non lethal alternatives to using knife, many of which are very efficient and legal, I won't list them as I'm sure most of you know them.
For those that have trained with knives or like the concept of a knife as a defensive weapon, I think it would be wise to start carrying a trainer of some sort as a substitute (Delica, Endura, Gunting or whichever you can find).
The logic behind it is this:
1. Looks like a knife which means it can create the intimidation factor which can alone prevent a sizable percentage of all violent encounters

2. Non lethal and technically not a knife at all. by law (at least where i live) a knife is considered "an object, metal or otherwise, with a blade or edge, capable of cutting and\or stabbing", which means that if it can't cut or stab it's not a knife (think legal issues with SD).

3. With proper training, a knife trainer can be use very efficiently as a non lethal impact or pressure point control weapon.

For conclusion, please keep in mind that all the above said is my own personal opinion only and should be regarded as nothing else.
Which ever way you choose to defend yourself, please train with it and be comfortable and responsible with it, it's always better to walk/run away first.
"A clever man knows not to walk into a situation that a smart man knows how to walk out of."

Train safely, take care, happy new year and best wishes to you and yours.

[rolyat1978]

...
For those that have trained with knives or like the concept of a knife as a defensive weapon, I think it would be wise to start carrying a trainer of some sort as a substitute (Delica, Endura, Gunting or whichever you can find).
The logic behind it is this:
1. Looks like a knife which means it can create the intimidation factor which can alone prevent a sizable percentage of all violent encounters

2. Non lethal and technically not a knife at all. by law (at least where i live) a knife is considered "an object, metal or otherwise, with a blade or edge, capable of cutting and\or stabbing", which means that if it can't cut or stab it's not a knife (think legal issues with SD).

3. With proper training, a knife trainer can be use very efficiently as a non lethal impact or pressure point control weapon.

For conclusion, please keep in mind that all the above said is my own personal opinion only and should be regarded as nothing else.

My only response is, when you pull your weapon(whether it be knife, expandable baton, pistol, rilfe, etc) you must fully intend to use it to it's full degree... not intimidation of you opponent. Pulling a "trainer" on somebody not only goes against everything I've been taught, but what happens when someone calls your bluff? You've might have just accelerated the situation from a mere robbery to a robbery/murder(most likely your own).

[i.v]

My only response is, when you pull your weapon(whether it be knife, expandable baton, pistol, rilfe, etc) you must fully intend to use it to it's full degree... not intimidation of you opponent. Pulling a "trainer" on somebody not only goes against everything I've been taught, but what happens when someone calls your bluff? You've might have just accelerated the situation from a mere robbery to a robbery/murder(most likely your own).

I agree on the part of don't pull it out if you don't intent to use it, however, pulling it out can still still intimidate the opponent and if it doesn't, well you intented on using it anyway.
That brings me back to my original point, if you use it, make sure that you are trained with it and know what to do with it.
The tip for trainers was meant for people who are trained in using a knife as a weapon, obviously, more training is needed once you are using something different than a live blade.
By the way, if you have no training what so ever you're no better off with a knife then you would a trainer or anything else.

[Gerard Breuker]

Where I live I could get into serious trouble for successfully defending my family or myself no matter how. If self defense is justified and using a knife can make the difference between success or failure I am not too worried about the serious trouble afterwards. I still prefer being visited by my family in prison over attending their funeral.

[denn]

why not carry a Parker ballpoint pen? strong, spikey, clip.......

sorted. :)

denn

[i.v]

carry a checkbook along with your Parker pen and you'll avoid most incidents by buying your way out :p

[huugh]

why not carry a Parker ballpoint pen? strong, spikey, clip.......

sorted. :)

denn

That sounds familiar :)

[Puyallupknifegu]

yikes! huugh, I think that one needs a "not kid friendly warning"

Remind me not to make somebody mad with a pen...yeesh!! But on another note...when I fly and can't take my "friends" with me...I like pens. :rolleyes:


Tim

[denn]

That sounds familiar :)

yeah, kinda nasty Huugh. i'll change my choice of pen from steel Parker to plastic Bic :D

denn

[huugh]

If you haven't seen the movie which the pen scene is from I advice you to do so. It's Casino (from 1995), really good one.
Also if you are into gangster/mafia theme, a must is Scarface (de Palma's version is IMHO better, but see original 1930's version too - as this isn't classic "remake"=="original" scheme, they are very different movies).

As a little teaser, check this soundboard :)

[denn]

If you haven't seen the movie which the pen scene is from I advice you to do so. It's Casino (from 1995), really good one.
Also if you are into gangster/mafia theme, a must is Scarface (de Palma's version is IMHO better, but see original 1930's version too - as this isn't classic "remake"=="original" scheme, they are very different movies).

As a little teaser, check this soundboard :)

ah, 'Casino'. i was thinking it was from 'Donnie Brasco'.....

know all those maffia-movies, like 'em, but once i've seen 'em 2 or 3 times, that's enough for me.

denn

[Xplo]

I don't want to sound pretentious as I am not a self-defense expert, soldier, or anything like that, but...

Weapons escalate conflicts. If you carry one for self-defense, then you must be willing to use it in the most effective manner; if your weapon is capable of killing, then you must be willing to kill people with it. If you're not mentally prepared to do that, then you'd be better off leaving the SD knife at home.

[Jordan]

hehe, carrying a trainer for self defense... thats rich

[Zac]

I am with the concept of being willing to, and actually using it when you deploy it. This takes a certain mental mindset (much more than physical) to be able to cut human flesh. I believe most people are capable of this when they realize how bad a situation is and I believe in the common good of most people know when this is and when this is not appropriate.

I do agree that an impact weapon can be effective and the knife I carry, a Civilian, has a steel liner which gives the blade more mass and the butt has a rounded point. Sometimes, an attacker does not leave an open entry to a place where an impact weapon will be effective. Cutting flesh and muscle will be effective wherever the cut may be. The sight of one's own blood is a horrifying experience and a lethal cut is often not necessary. Just a quick gash and an attacker sees what just happened and pictures the future of them + big knife = bad times.

Where I live, even if you defend yourself with your hands, you will likely lose in Civil Court and often in Criminal Court. You may even be sued by the attacker and they may very well win. I live in a very liberal area and the fact of the matter is, conservative states in the United States are more welcoming to the use of self defense than liberal states. In Maryland, you have to literally let someone begin to kill you before the justification of lethal (or even visually lethal) self defense. Working for the government with developmentally and physically disabled individuals has favored me as the last time when I used a blade for self defense, I was working.

The appearance of a blade will either deter an attacker immediately or it will not. In the case of knives like the Spyderco Civilian, Spyderco Police, Cold Steel Grande Vaquero, Cold Steel SafeMaker I, and larger fixed blades, the deterrence factor is much higher because the knifes are large, serrated, shiny; making them visually intimidating as they scream "I am going to cut the **** out of you and you are not going to like it". Anyone, despite education levels, understands what a sharp blade can do, especially with an educated user. A few moves that shows that one knows what they are doing will often make an attacker leave. Often those attackers know what it is like to be cut and they know the pain and the scary factor with it. They do not like it, and larger knives can be a more effective deterrent than a firearm.

In the end their are exceptions to any rule and self defense is no exception to this exception. An impact weapon is often only as good as an attacker lets you get into to certain spots as it relies on the weaknesses of the human body. There will be instances in which visual intimidation is not possible as you may be in a skirmish with an attacker or it may come down to you having to use a blade as fast as possible or wind up dead yourself. This is where human judgment means statutory law and there will be problems as both as not always congruent. In the end, the bottom line of self defense is to make it home alive and unharmed as much as possible. There are many techniques and philosophies for self defense and some take more pity on the attacker, but despite how you and what degree you defend yourself, making it home alive remains the bottom line.

If you want something for self defense, I recommend a self defense knife and training and gaining the mindset to use it in a situation that you deem necessary. If you just abide by law on what is appropriate and what is not, you may very well wind up dead. The old saying applies to self defense in "I'de rather be tried by twelve, than carried by six". I will add to that I would rather be tried by twelve than watch myself, my friends or my family be carried by six.

[sal]

Hi I.V.,

I'm afraid that most here would consider carrying a trainer for actual self defense, similar to carrying a gun with no bullets. Bluffing against a straight flush with a pair of 2's proves fruitless when cards are laid down.

I don't want to hijack the thread, and could begin another thread if preferred.

However, I would like to ask your assistance in trying to determine what would be the ideal knife for Israel.

Knife sales in Israel have been slow since the stabbings several years ago and the laws pertaining to carrying a knife have become borderline panic.

Let us assume for a moment that one would want to carry a knife, for general use, that could also be used for self defense, if necessary. This knife would also have to fill the role of being as politically correct and socially friendly as possile.

As Zac mentioned, a "cut finger" could end an attack. If it was done with a Swiss army knife, laws would not think of you as a "trouble maker with a knife". Unfortunately, Swiss army knives make poor SD tools.

The UK PenKnife is an example of a knife that was made to meet the laws of a specific country, yet still offered a degree of high performance.

So if we were going to design this "perfect" knife for carry in Israel, what would it be?

We have a design that we've been refining for a couple of years. We've discussed the concept with our distributor in Israel. I would like to know "afi" opinions on this subject. The time will come, IMO, that laws will greatly influence the type of knife a law abiding citizen can carry.

We do have a few posters from Israel or that have been to Israel. Maybe we can get some advice?

sal

[Jordan]

There is a pretty big elephant in this metaphorical room, same elephant that is always in the room when knives as a deterrent are concerned. That is the principle of escalation. In a "self-defense" situation, if you pull a knife out for intimidation purposes you had best hope and pray that your attacker doesn't have a gun or a bigger (and presumably real) knife... or a monkey wrench... or a couple of buddies in hiding. If you cannot do what is necessary in those situations, for the love of Christ do not pull out a butter knife and expect your opponent to defecate upon his trousers. If your life is not in danger, keep your knife in your pocket and live to fight another day; you can always buy new stuff, earn more money, cancel credit cards, and give the police a good description if you are still alive. Even if you are a skilled martial artist, the other guy could always be better. If your life IS in danger, a training knife will be somewhat less valuable to you than a sharpened blade and, as Zac noted, it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

On that note, in this day and age, if you defend yourself from an attacker and both of you walk away. There is a chance (not in my state... in Texas I could probably waste the postman for trespassing and be acquitted, provided that he was late on his route...) that you could be punished for your actions in a court of law. So, it seems logical that the only wise time to defend yourself with a lethal weapon is when you fully intend to exploit the lethality of your weapon. Dead men don't press assault charges, don't testify against you, and don't sue.

I dunno if I could do it... but if that test came to me, I can say that I would not attempt any half measures; no intimidations, no trainers, no warnings. The deadliest weapon at my disposal in the deadliest way I can wield it, thats all there is to it. See, logic also tells me that if I feel that there is no other recourse, I won't be wanting a rematch.

I know I seem uncharacteristically passionate on this subject. I think my grandfather said it best. He was the chief of police in a town called Logan in Ohio. He once told my dad concerning karate lessons, "That's the kind of crap that gets people killed."

[Joe Talmadge]

There is a pretty big elephant in this metaphorical room, same elephant that is always in the room when knives as a deterrent are concerned. That is the principle of escalation.

I think there are a few more elephants that are always in the room. It's easy to get off track when you're thinking about self defense in the comfort of your living room. For example, as good guys, when would we deploy a knife? Answer, when we or our family are being threatened with violence that we believe could lead to death or great bodily harm. Like many, I feel i.v is caught up in the more west-side-storyish idea that the danger presents itself from afar, so that you can pull out your trainer and brandish it, and voila, bad guys possibly scamper away. The problem is, here in real life, many lethal assaults start with the assault, or at least close-in hostilities. So, here are things that don't match i.v's model: often, if you pull the knife, you are already being assaulted and need to stop the assault immediately or risk great bodily injury or death. Additionally, most often the bad guy won't even see the knife, so counting on brandishing is a horrible idea not just because the bad guy might not get scared (indeed, he might escalate) but because there's a good chance that the bad guy might be too intent on killing you to even notice the knife.

There are a lot of personal choices in self defense, use of a weapon is one, and choice of weapon is another. Whatever you choose, do so based on reality, not on the assumption that criminal violence usually begins from 8 feet away. I can't criticize a guy who has decided that a knife just isn't for him ... but I have to criticize when the reasoning is not based on reality.

Joe

[Jordan]

Amen to that Joe. I firmly believe that anybody who, like me, has not been involved in a lethal assault will, by default, be guilty of making false suppositions. What I do to offset that in my preparations for such an eventuality (not something I look forward to or expect in my immediate future) is avoid suppositions altogether. I simply try to make sure that I have the proper tools (mental and physical) at my disposal, and hope that I will be able to take it from there should the time come. And, I keep in mind the words of Euripides, "No one can confidently say that he will still be living tomorrow."

[markg]

I have been a marital arts instructor for about 5 years... I always love when someone gets into a "situation" and asks... "How do I get out of this?" I normally respond... "Let your arm get broke and cry for your mommy..." You don't get out of bad situations often, without getting hurt or worse. Avoiding this is the cornerstone of "self-defense."

When we talk about "self-defense" we tend to talk about getting out of "bad situations." Truth be told, if you are in a bad situation, well you are in a bad situation. You will need training, skills, tools, motivation and a WHOLE lotta luck. Also, the legal aspect is important to consider, but I say, be proactive. There are things you can do, to help yourself, if thing go down bad.

Make a list of "legal options" in our country. Then begin work from their. Are pepper sprays, impact weapons, legal? Heck, as is pointed out, a pen or a set of car keys can be used to great effect. If so, then get some and make them second nature. Also, keep in mind that if you are in a situation where you would use a knife to defend yourself, the options are be killed or defend yourself. At that point, what might happen to you legally is a mute point. The worst the legal system can do is throw you in jail, or maybe in some places "kill" you in return. So what do you have to lose?

As I said, we tend to think of SD in terms of getting out of a bad situation. In reality it is a system of awareness... In my old age here is what I would say...

1.) Get to know your local law enforcement. I know most of them in my town, and I am considered a "civic leader." I could pretty much shoot you, cut you up, and burn your body for trespassing... And they would believe me. Frankly most of the cops in my town call me "sir." Be a model citizen, it goes a long way.

2.) Dress like a soccer mom or dad, drive a mini-van... heck wear a pocket protector with a slide rule in it! If you look like a biker or gang banger... Guess what? I want to write a SD book called "Dress for Innocents!"

3.) Avoid bad situations... In the larger metro area I live in, we have had a record number of homicides this year. The medical examiner went on record as saying... "If you don't do drugs, sell drugs, or buy drugs... the chances of you being murdered in this town are slim..." He is right.

4.) Brandishing a knife in my town will get a Glock stuck in your face! I MIGHT brandish an AR-15... A knife? Nah...

5.) Never underestimate the importance of fitness and self-defense. Try some ground fighting for a few minutes... Can you run? Run for your life? Train to fight... AND fight to train.

As for a trainer for SD? I would not recommend it. There are other less then lethal options that would fit better. Also keep in mind... What "knife law" ever said the knife had to be "sharp" to be illegal? A trainer is still a knife.

[denn]

not an SD-thread again..... :rolleyes:

adding my last cts. to this subject: carrying trainers for SD is just plain STUPID. sorry if i offended anyone who does this, but it's STUPID. probably the dumbest thing you could do; you'd actually be better off without any 'weapon' whatsoever. it's equally STUPID as carrying an empty revolver.

don't do it!

> let's say you flaunt your trainer at an aggressive thug or junkie, and the thug just grins and doesn't care sh*t that you're showing off your knife and look all tough. well then, there you are, standing there with your 'fake knife'......enjoy the ride...... :mad: STUPID!

couple of basic no-no's and don't's:

-showing off, pointing knife to assailant
-verbal intimidation
-drawing a knife in a city filled with gun-slingers
-looking or acting all scared and startled or get intimidated
-no emotions! (stay empty in your mind, except for quickly thinking up an approach to the problem)

i actually had three real-life situations where i pulled my knife, and in all cases actually using it wasn't even necessary

two times were at a remote local train-station tunnel, on foot.

the 1st time i got jumped by surprise. they came from a dark corner by the steps, seemingly out of nowhere, and i was slightly alcohol-intoxicated. i responded completely relaxed and un-impressed and pulled my Police (durnjg that era i still carried a Police), held it next to my side and gave them a psycho i-don't-care-look, didn't say a word, and i walked on. nothing happened. i felt i was on top of the world and went to bed. the next morning i decided to never walk the streets at night anymore while under the influence of alcohol

the 2nd time was somewhere else in a nearby big city at night, early morning, by bicycle. i got an almost-too-innocent looking guy walking towards me from the sidewalk asking me "what time is it?". i intentionally did not look at my watch because i somehow 'felt' the guy was not even close to curious to know what time it was, but rather to rob me or beat me up. i gave him a friendly stare and started paddling my bicycle again, and said 'i'm not wearing a watch, sorry man'. but, he came after me, calling me names and threatening to beat me up. i drew my Millie and told him to stay away before i got really angry, the guy started running and i started to pick up extra speed on my bicycle. he didn't stop, and kept running after me (he was fast too!), and suddenly out of a nearby narrow alley, i didn't even know it was there, 3 of his partners in crime, may have been 4 can't remember that well, started up their souped up scooters and came riding towards me, fast, i took a race for it on my bicycle, ringed my bicycle bell as a 'help-me!-alarm' and they followed me for about 2 minutes through streets, lanes and alleys, before they finally gave up because i was hiding in an alley behind a dumpster in a cosy residential area, with in my shaking hand in total terror my knife, hoping they wouldn't find me. i was almost completely exhausted from the racing. had it taken slightly longer than those 2 minutes i would have 'gotten' it, bad......; that one time i was totally scared sh*tless

the 3rd time was at the same tunnel as the 1st time, on foot again, no alcohol. i was prepared for thugs and junks, because it was saturday night around 0330-0400 hours (always the same bullcrap on friday- and saturday-nights, i hate that!). as soon as i walked in the tunnel i saw 2 guys near the end of the tunnel, looking and talking to eachother while looking at me too. it instantly gave me the intuitive feeling they were up to no good as far i was concerned. by then, i still could have turned around, because i knew there were plenty of roads to slip in and take a detour. i wasn't drunk, all i had was 3 coffee and 1 capuccino, but my 'pride' said "no, you're gonna walk towards them a-holes and not let them cause you a detour-walkaround of half an hour extra. so, i kept walking and i simply slowly drew my Millie, held it next to me and walked towards them confidently, with the usual no-expression-not-impressed-bring-it-on-psycho-look......they split up and made room for me and made some nasty comments. while i walked between them i made a quick 360 to see what they'd do. they did nothing but curse me and taunting. i casually walked on, and did a 360 every other 50 meters or so. i got off, yet again. from that moment on, i decided i wouldn't go on foot out on the streets between 0000 and 0600 hours, ever.

conclusion: stuff on the streets is nowhere near as predictable as you might think and flaunting a 4" folder doesn't always work. even though there's plenty of basic stuff to abide by to stay a safe as possible, somehow situations can get really odd, like you would never expect.

stay safe, carry a small knife for SD, and only draw if you're in the right frame of mind.

denn