More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

[Tucson Tom]

Well, I have backpacked extensively, climbed technical rock and mountaineering in Colorado and Wyoming. I remember always carrying a bunch of gear we never used. An ounce or two made absolutely no difference.

The only climbers I knew back then who went light were the two who would occasionally free solo. All this obsession with ultralight gear is 99.9% overblown.

Oh no, no no. It is absolutely not overblown. I used to carry heavy packs and gear I never used. I was just stupid.

It is all about mindset. As soon as you start saying "an ounce or two doesn't matter" and "I'll take this just in case" you are screwed. It is when you pay attention to detail that you can head out on a week long trip in the high mountains with a 30 pound pack and be just fine. If I hadn't gotten obsessed with ultralight I would have given up backpacking years ago. Ultralight means you can go farther, faster, and enjoy it more.

It may be macho to carry heavy packs, but it isn't smart.

[Wartstein]

alright. i heard both sides and understand them. your group of radical lw packers is so slim compared to the majority. yes there are ppl who do all that and ppl who just hike a few miles, but very very very few ppl actually go and hike like you are talking or climb like you are talking. yes this lw obsession is just that a state of mind in obsessing over something very very very few ppl will ever experience let alone think seriously about doing.
i am sorry if it feels i am disrespecting you but you took it to the extremes very very few ppl will. there is nothing wrong with liking light weight knives but do not for one second go radical and say every once counts or talk bad to "normal" ppl and say everything has to be lighter, it is a preference ONLY for most.

I am one of those who SOMETIMES has a need for lightweight-gear and I´d say only on that few occasions every ounce counts, or to put it better, it is a good idea to count every ounce.

I´d never, ever talk bad though to anyone who never has a need for lightweight gear. To be honest, sometimes I even smile a little bit when I see guys in the mountains, who ALWAYS go as light as possible (but I don´t look down at them, to each his own!!). That´s particularly true when it comes to backcountry skitouring (for everyone who does not know much about this: Unlike as in resort-skiing, you go to more or less remote places, go uphill one your skis with climbing skins attached, on the top you remove the skins and go downhill on skis, normally in deep powder snow or quite tricky terrain). On a relaxed tour after work maybe, I always grab my wide, long and heavy skis and bring good food for lunch on the top or even a stove and cookwear, without thinking of ounces. I may be a lot slower on the uphill, but I enjoy myself more beeing well fed and have MUCH more fun on the downhill due to the wide, heavy skis which work a lot better in deep snow than skinny, lightweight ones.
Carrying more weight on such occasions even makes me fitter for the outings ON WHICH I have to go light and fast.

But there ARE rare occasions where it really comes down to saving weight! If you go on skis for a day trip that includes more than 15 000 feet vertical and more than 25 miles horizontal distance, and maybe have to break trail though deep snow, that´s really when you start to feel every ounce and/or want as much ounces as possible to be CALORIES and not heavy knives or the like, believe me!! :) (and I have the feeling, but that´s just theorie, that vertical distance makes it even more important to save weight than horizontal)

[rabbitanarchy14]

alright. i heard both sides and understand them. your group of radical lw packers is so slim compared to the majority. yes there are ppl who do all that and ppl who just hike a few miles, but very very very few ppl actually go and hike like you are talking or climb like you are talking. yes this lw obsession is just that a state of mind in obsessing over something very very very few ppl will ever experience let alone think seriously about doing.
i am sorry if it feels i am disrespecting you but you took it to the extremes very very few ppl will. there is nothing wrong with liking light weight knives but do not for one second go radical and say every once counts or talk bad to "normal" ppl and say everything has to be lighter, it is a preference ONLY for most.

I am one of those who SOMETIMES has a need for lightweight-gear and I´d say only on that few occasions every ounce counts, or to put it better, it is a good idea to count every ounce.

I´d never, ever talk bad though to anyone who never has a need for lightweight gear. To be honest, sometimes I even smile a little bit when I see guys in the mountains, who ALWAYS go as light as possible (but I don´t look down at them, to each his own!!). That´s particularly true when it comes to backcountry skitouring (for everyone who does not know much about this: Unlike as in resort-skiing, you go to more or less remote places, go uphill one your skis with climbing skins attached, on the top you remove the skins and go downhill on skis, normally in deep powder snow or quite tricky terrain). On a relaxed tour after work maybe, I always grab my wide, long and heavy skis and bring good food for lunch on the top or even a stove and cookwear, without thinking of ounces. I may be a lot slower on the uphill, but I enjoy myself more beeing well fed and have MUCH more fun on the downhill due to the wide, heavy skis which work a lot better in deep snow than skinny, lightweight ones.
Carrying more weight on such occasions even makes me fitter for the outings ON WHICH I have to go light and fast.

But there ARE rare occasions where it really comes down to saving weight! If you go on skis for a day trip that includes more than 15 000 feet vertical and more than 25 miles horizontal distance, and maybe have to break trail though deep snow, that´s really when you start to feel every ounce and/or want as much ounces as possible to be CALORIES and not heavy knives or the like, believe me!! :) (and I have the feeling, but that´s just theorie, that vertical distance makes it even more important to save weight than horizontal)

i actually enjoyed reading this and you are correct, and i like the way you have said sometimes and some ppl. i dont have any area around in 300 miles of me that counting weight would matter except a long hike and even then so few do.

[bearfacedkiller]

I remember Colin Fletcher advocated cutting the handles down on toothbrushes and trimming the margins off topo maps. He wore three pound boots.

The actual importance of an ounce in hiking, backpacking and all that is vastly over rated.

How many times have you bicycled 200 miles in one day, then slept on gear you carried with you in freezing temps?

Perspectives change quite a bit with experience. On trips like that, I squeeze out half the toothpaste of a travel tube when I pack, and other things people think to be silly and over the top. When you're pushing the physical limits of your body, these things matter.

Sure, if you're biking 3 miles to work, an ounce doesn't matter. Even a pound doesn't. But if you're riding like you're competing in the RAAM, it absolutely does.

This extends to all sorts of activities. If you're hiking a mile from your SUV to a camp site, go a head and bring a 50lb pack. If you aim to hike 20+ miles a day for over a month, you'll hate life carrying that much weight.

I've had office jobs where I didn't mind the extra weight. I've had wilderness security jobs where I had to walk 12+ miles per shift, where I did mind it. Not everyone lives the same lifestyle. Telling folks "weight isn't a big deal" to people who live an active lifestyle can be like telling Lance that "Corrosion resistance isn't a big deal," or telling Deacon that "Left hand friendly locks aren't a big deal."

alright. i heard both sides and understand them. your group of radical lw packers is so slim compared to the majority. yes there are ppl who do all that and ppl who just hike a few miles, but very very very few ppl actually go and hike like you are talking or climb like you are talking. yes this lw obsession is just that a state of mind in obsessing over something very very very few ppl will ever experience let alone think seriously about doing.
i am sorry if it feels i am disrespecting you but you took it to the extremes very very few ppl will. there is nothing wrong with liking light weight knives but do not for one second go radical and say every once counts or talk bad to "normal" ppl and say everything has to be lighter, it is a preference ONLY for most.

I think you are wrong. Do you realize how big of an industry ultralight backpacking is? I know more folks who backpack than I do knife geeks. There are forums, books and entire companies devoted to shaving pounds when you hike. People will spend hundreds of dollars on a sleeping bag. Pretty much every backpacker I know fusses about weight to some degree. I am more of a lightweight backpacker than an ultralight backpacker but on certain trips I will really obsess over it. In the winter my pack can get heavy with extra clothes and on longer trips it can get heavy with extra food. On those trips I will really try to shave some weight.

I single overnight in the summer and I can keep my pack around 20 pounds with extra comfort/luxury items. A multi night hike in the winter and it can be over 50 pounds. On the latter ounces really matter. Ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain.

The true ultra ultra light backpackers don't carry knives with them however. Many will carry a single razor blade. It can open a package of freeze dried food, trim a thread, do some first aid or whatever small tasks they require and it pretty much weighs nothing.

[Tucson Tom]

I think you are wrong. Do you realize how big of an industry ultralight backpacking is? I know more folks who backpack than I do knife geeks. There are forums, books and entire companies devoted to shaving pounds when you hike. People will spend hundreds of dollars on a sleeping bag. Pretty much every backpacker I know fusses about weight to some degree. I am more of a lightweight backpacker than an ultralight backpacker but on certain trips I will really obsess over it. In the winter my pack can get heavy with extra clothes and on longer trips it can get heavy with extra food. On those trips I will really try to shave some weight.

I single overnight in the summer and I can keep my pack around 20 pounds with extra comfort/luxury items. A multi night hike in the winter and it can be over 50 pounds. On the latter ounces really matter. Ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain.

The true ultra ultra light backpackers don't carry knives with them however. Many will carry a single razor blade. It can open a package of freeze dried food, trim a thread, do some first aid or whatever small tasks they require and it pretty much weighs nothing.

I am just finishing throwing together a pack for a 2.5 day backpack starting in an hour or so. Now this is springtime in Arizona, which is like summer most other places. I just put the pack on the scale and it is 18 pounds with fuel and food in it. I'll be adding water (probably 8 pounds). When I head out for a week backpack in the Sierra my total food weight will go up to about 10 pounds, so my packweight (never need to carry water there) will be about 30.

I am not a true ultralight dude. The way I see that is that is when your packweight becomes the end all and be all -- for me, it is a means to an end, and I have certain compromises for comfort and certain luxuries. So I am in truth a lightweight backpacker, which works nicely for me.

As for knife, I'll be taking my new M4 Shaman, just because it is new and I want to play with it. My usual choice would be the Native. However the Shaman is 5.2 ounces, as compared to 3.1 for the Native, so it is a mere additional 2 ounces. But I am well aware of the extreme price I am paying, not just throwing it in the pack without giving it a thought.

[Tucson Tom]

I just got out my lightweight Native 5 (Maxamet) and my G10 Native 5 (M4) and weighed them. 2.5 versus 3.1 ounces. So the "lightweight" is saving me an incredible 0.6 ounces. (Yes I can and have made do with a single edged razor blade when backpacking).

My thought and boil down from all this is that these "lightweight" Spyderco knives ought to just be called FRN knives (versus G10 knives). The weight savings is really minimal. Calling them lightweight may but truthful in fact, but it is somewhat disingenuous. There is some other fancy word for lying, but I can't remember it right now.

It is more about the style of knife and whether you prefer the feel of FRN/FRCP than any real weight savings, that is what I am getting at.

And I may as well say it again. I don't like the look of FRN. I'll pick G10 every time. If Spyderco switches to making everything FRN as a cost saving measure, then I will treasure the knives I have and remember their golden era. Not that I really think that things are trending that direction.

[Wartstein]

The true ultra ultra light backpackers don't carry knives with them however. Many will carry a single razor blade. It can open a package of freeze dried food, trim a thread, do some first aid or whatever small tasks they require and it pretty much weighs nothing.

Yes, you are right. And in that extreme form I am never an ultra-ultralight backpacker..

Generally, in 95% of occasions I am the kind of guy who wants to enjoy life (and myself) anyway and not push everthing to the extremes.
And so, since I love knives, I bring one of my Spydies on most even longer trips in the mountains, despite I could cut everything I have to (food and so on) with the blade on my leatherman which I carry anyway. But it just brings me joy to sit in the sun and use my HAP 40 Endura for example, and so I do it. :)

On the rare occasions when really every ounce counts (so when I go to and maybe a bit beyond MY personal limits) I still bring at least a leatherman Juice and not just a razor blade ( but no additional folder). In an emergency I just want to be able to repair my gear (and especially in wintertime it gets somewhat technical), or construct a makeshift shelter, or break into a locked mountain hut (of course only in a life or death scenario!). I think that also has something to do with responsibility and respect for the mountains and the wild. It´s very beautiful there, but not a playground...

[Bloke]

I just put the pack on

[bearfacedkiller]

I agree with you guys and wasn't really taking a strong stance personally. Just pointing out that counting ounces is actually quite common among backpackers. As knife geeks we are all probably going to accept a few extra ounces to bring a knife.

I always have a knife in the woods. The Boy Scout in me cannot go into the woods without a knife. I tried the razor blade thing and decided I wanted a knife for emergencies. When going light it is either a safety orange Delica or the 2mm carbon steel mora companion. On shorter trips when I am not worried about weight I do what any knife geek would do and bring a bunch of sharp things.

Tom, you are right that frn doesn't save a lot of weight over g10. Getting rid of liners makes more of a difference. Not long ago the G10 Native5 had full liners and weighed noticably more than the frn version.

[Wartstein]

I agree with you guys and wasn't really taking a strong stance personally. Just pointing out that counting ounces is actually quite common among backpackers. As knife geeks we are all probably going to accept a few extra ounces to bring a knife.

I always have a knife in the woods. The Boy Scout in me cannot go into the woods without a knife. I tried the razor blade thing and decided I wanted a knife for emergencies. When going light it is either a safety orange Delica or the 2mm carbon steel mora companion. On shorter trips when I am not worried about weight I do what any knife geek would do and bring a bunch of sharp things.

Tom, you are right that frn doesn't save a lot of weight over g10. Getting rid of liners makes more of a difference. Not long ago the G10 Native5 had full liners and weighed noticably more than the frn version.

I am afraid this is getting off topic even more, but nevertheless: My choice (and recommendation) when going light but still wanting to bring a fixed blade, is the White River Backpacker Pro with orange scales (you could go even lighter (and cheaper) by 0.7 ounces by choosing the paracord-wrapped version).

I wish Spycderco would make a knife like this at a similiar (around 100 $) pricepoint. Looks a like an Esee Izula, but slightly longer blade which makes it a lot more usefull, way better steel (S30 V, current models S35VN I think), full, exposed tang (I want that last one when batoning a lot). Great, small profile sheath.
I bring this knife especially in wintertime when I have to start fires while doing overnighters in mountainshelters. Those feature very primitive ovens most of the time, and the stored wood is split up to some extent, but always wet so you have to baton it to expose the dry parts and make kindling. Nothing I´d want a folder for,but also nothing I need a larger fixed blade, but rather a stout, smaller one.