Military 2

[aicolainen]

Strange how it all went. If the new compression lock knife was called the PM4 or P2 XL as many have indicated everyone would be happy. Military lovers would feel like the Military had not been succeeded or replaced. And there would be a new, and very likely great new kid on the block. Even though I think the compression lock will be a better seller, the liner lock still has it's place and for some people or situations the compression lock model just won't cut it as a replacement.
The new steel, (assuming S30V will be replaced in new stock) when new stock becomes available will breathe some life back into Military sales as well.

I think that will prove a Pyrrhic Victory

The problem naming the Military 2 the 'PM4 / P2XL' is that the regular liner lock Military will likely die off in a few years. And then there would be no 'Military' at all, barring the model simply being kept alive for sentimental reasons like the Centofante 3.

Other then the handful of forumites who are bored with Comp Locks or have some unique aversion to them, the rest of the knife buying public would choose the 'PM4' aka Military 2 (Military with comp lock + 4 way clip) pretty much across the board. Especially since we're also likely to see future blade steels / sprints / aftermarket support focused on the PM4/Military 2 then the legacy Liner Lock Military.

In the effort to 'save the Military' by promoting a 'PM4', folks are likely relegating the Military - an iconic product name and spyderco flagship - to the dustbin of history.

Hi Mark,

I disagree with you on a couple of points. Many who like the military like it for very practical reasons. Operating a liner lock with gloves is far better than a compression lock. People who work using gloves or wear gloves due to weather or climate understand this. This is not compression lock boredom. There are legitimate reasons a liner lock knife is better in some circumstances.

8< ------------

This too is a simplification.
I'm no authority on knife design, but I'm pretty experienced with gloves and harsh weather. And it has been my experience so far, that the overall design and ergonomics matter more than lock type when it comes to operating a knife with gloves.

Back when I got my PM2, my collection wasn't much to speak about and the PM2 was one of my first really decent production knives.
When I got it, one of the things that blew me away, was how easy it was to operate with gloves compared to my other knives. Maybe that says more about the other knives, but that doesn't take away from the fact that operating the knife with gloves was pretty much unproblematic.

The Military is probably a very good implementation of the liner lock, I'm curious to try one, but it's in a size range I haven't really prioritized to explore yet. Bad implementations also exist though, as with with any lock type.

[mark greenman]

Strange how it all went. If the new compression lock knife was called the PM4 or P2 XL as many have indicated everyone would be happy. Military lovers would feel like the Military had not been succeeded or replaced. And there would be a new, and very likely great new kid on the block. Even though I think the compression lock will be a better seller, the liner lock still has it's place and for some people or situations the compression lock model just won't cut it as a replacement.
The new steel, (assuming S30V will be replaced in new stock) when new stock becomes available will breathe some life back into Military sales as well.

I think that will prove a Pyrrhic Victory

The problem naming the Military 2 the 'PM4 / P2XL' is that the regular liner lock Military will likely die off in a few years. And then there would be no 'Military' at all, barring the model simply being kept alive for sentimental reasons like the Centofante 3.

Other then the handful of forumites who are bored with Comp Locks or have some unique aversion to them, the rest of the knife buying public would choose the 'PM4' aka Military 2 (Military with comp lock + 4 way clip) pretty much across the board. Especially since we're also likely to see future blade steels / sprints / aftermarket support focused on the PM4/Military 2 then the legacy Liner Lock Military.

In the effort to 'save the Military' by promoting a 'PM4', folks are likely relegating the Military - an iconic product name and spyderco flagship - to the dustbin of history.

Hi Mark,

I disagree with you on a couple of points. Many who like the military like it for very practical reasons. Operating a liner lock with gloves is far better than a compression lock. People who work using gloves or wear gloves due to weather or climate understand this. This is not compression lock boredom. There are legitimate reasons a liner lock knife is better in some circumstances.

I completely fail to see how naming the military 2 a PM2 XL or a PM 4 would hasten the demise of the Military in it's current form. To me that makes no sense at all.

I do agree that the successor will in compression lock form will likely be the better seller. The market seems to prefer that lock type. It seems to me that many who trash the original in favor of the compression lock model are talking out of their back end and have never tried the Military to begin with. (This is not aimed at you, for all I know, you have a dozen military's)

I'm carrying a CPM-D2 Military as I type this, which has been one of my primary EDC's since it was released in 2007. Its been pretty much my exclusive carry the last 5 years.

The Military's biggest drawback is the Liner Lock; the amount of lock engagement shifts depending on how hard the knife is flicked open. Its also less smooth then the Comp Lock, and also has an asymetric handle cutout to allow the functioning of the liner lock.

Other then the niche application of being slightly easier to close with gloves, the Comp Lock is a better lock then the liner lock; if we imagine that the original Military had come with a Comp Lock, or had been switched to a Comp lock back in 2004 when the Paramilitary was released, I doubt many would clamor for a Liner Lock military. Improving upon the weaknesses of liner lock was the raison d'etre for the Comp Locks invention, and why we don't see more liner lock models by Spyderco.

More broadly as Spyderco as a business / introducing new people to the Military, a Comp lock model will be a substantially better seller, simply based on the sterling reputation that lock has achieved. While Liner Locks are common and of various qualities, the Comp Lock is an iconic, proprietary lock synonymous with Spyderco - equivalent to how the Axis lock is synonymous with Benchmade. So it would simply be more 'on brand' to have the Comp.

[Wartstein]

...

I'm carrying a CPM-D2 Military as I type this, which has been one of my primary EDC's since it was released in 2007. Its been pretty much my exclusive carry the last 5 years.

The Military's biggest drawback is the Liner Lock; the amount of lock engagement shifts depending on how hard the knife is flicked open. Its also less smooth then the Comp Lock, and also has an asymetric handle cutout to allow the functioning of the liner lock.

Other then the niche application of being slightly easier to close with gloves, the Comp Lock is a better lock then the liner lock; if we imagine that the original Military had come with a Comp Lock, or had been switched to a Comp lock back in 2004 when the Paramilitary was released, I doubt many would clamor for a Liner Lock military. Improving upon the weaknesses of liner lock was the raison d'etre for the Comp Locks invention, and why we don't see more liner lock models by Spyderco.

More broadly as Spyderco as a business / introducing new people to the Military, a Comp lock model will be a substantially better seller, simply based on the sterling reputation that lock has achieved. While Liner Locks are common and of various qualities, the Comp Lock is an iconic, proprietary lock synonymous with Spyderco - equivalent to how the Axis lock is synonymous with Benchmade. So it would simply be more 'on brand' to have the Comp.

No offense, but your post id missing a "FOR YOU" the comp.lock id better than the linerlock...
For me it is completely the other way round, and I have my good reasons too (and all from real experience):

- "Shifting" lock engagement" Might be, but does not matter practically at all cause the Milie (and other well made) linerlocks still lock the blade perfectly. Always in my experience.

- I would not buy a comp.lock Millie, just as I don't have a Shaman, Caribbean or Kapara but would if they came with a linerlock - and I DO "clamor" for more higher end linerlock Spydies- my new Tenacious in S35VN is a perfect example for how convenient and safe this locktype is.

- Not only is operation with gloves a lot easier with a linerlock for me, but also with wet, cold, greasy fingers - also, especially in such scenarios, much safer since while operating a linerlock the knife remains safer and more natural in the hand (no finger has to be moved to the top of the handle, and I am not even talking about the a bit unnatural pinch grip many use with a comp lock, which makes it a lot more likely to drop the knife)

- The comp.lock cutout just is in a place where it almost has to create a hotspot in harder, prolongued use. Not the case with the linerlock,
for me its cutout almost feels like chamfering

- A linerlock provides a convenient, large locktab just where the fingers are positioned anyway, while the comp. lock has s more or less small one in an "unnatural" spot.

Not saying that the comp.lock is bad by any means, it is actually really cool and I like it in certain knives! But in folder like the Millie for me it would be s downgrade. And I think many who really use their knives in the outdoors like the Millie particularly for its most userfriendly, great linerlock...

Perhaps you'd like to watch the vid Kobold linked, the guy there is a bit extrem, but still makes some very good points

-

[amateur blacksmith]

Strange how it all went. If the new compression lock knife was called the PM4 or P2 XL as many have indicated everyone would be happy. Military lovers would feel like the Military had not been succeeded or replaced. And there would be a new, and very likely great new kid on the block. Even though I think the compression lock will be a better seller, the liner lock still has it's place and for some people or situations the compression lock model just won't cut it as a replacement.
The new steel, (assuming S30V will be replaced in new stock) when new stock becomes available will breathe some life back into Military sales as well.

I think that will prove a Pyrrhic Victory

The problem naming the Military 2 the 'PM4 / P2XL' is that the regular liner lock Military will likely die off in a few years. And then there would be no 'Military' at all, barring the model simply being kept alive for sentimental reasons like the Centofante 3.

Other then the handful of forumites who are bored with Comp Locks or have some unique aversion to them, the rest of the knife buying public would choose the 'PM4' aka Military 2 (Military with comp lock + 4 way clip) pretty much across the board. Especially since we're also likely to see future blade steels / sprints / aftermarket support focused on the PM4/Military 2 then the legacy Liner Lock Military.

In the effort to 'save the Military' by promoting a 'PM4', folks are likely relegating the Military - an iconic product name and spyderco flagship - to the dustbin of history.

Hi Mark,

I disagree with you on a couple of points. Many who like the military like it for very practical reasons. Operating a liner lock with gloves is far better than a compression lock. People who work using gloves or wear gloves due to weather or climate understand this. This is not compression lock boredom. There are legitimate reasons a liner lock knife is better in some circumstances.

I completely fail to see how naming the military 2 a PM2 XL or a PM 4 would hasten the demise of the Military in it's current form. To me that makes no sense at all.

I do agree that the successor will in compression lock form will likely be the better seller. The market seems to prefer that lock type. It seems to me that many who trash the original in favor of the compression lock model are talking out of their back end and have never tried the Military to begin with. (This is not aimed at you, for all I know, you have a dozen military's)

I'm carrying a CPM-D2 Military as I type this, which has been one of my primary EDC's since it was released in 2007. Its been pretty much my exclusive carry the last 5 years.

The Military's biggest drawback is the Liner Lock; the amount of lock engagement shifts depending on how hard the knife is flicked open. Its also less smooth then the Comp Lock, and also has an asymetric handle cutout to allow the functioning of the liner lock.

Other then the niche application of being slightly easier to close with gloves, the Comp Lock is a better lock then the liner lock; if we imagine that the original Military had come with a Comp Lock, or had been switched to a Comp lock back in 2004 when the Paramilitary was released, I doubt many would clamor for a Liner Lock military. Improving upon the weaknesses of liner lock was the raison d'etre for the Comp Locks invention, and why we don't see more liner lock models by Spyderco.

More broadly as Spyderco as a business / introducing new people to the Military, a Comp lock model will be a substantially better seller, simply based on the sterling reputation that lock has achieved. While Liner Locks are common and of various qualities, the Comp Lock is an iconic, proprietary lock synonymous with Spyderco - equivalent to how the Axis lock is synonymous with Benchmade. So it would simply be more 'on brand' to have the Comp.

Sorry mate, You lost me when you said you'd carried a liner lock for 14 years and almost exclusively for the last 5 years and with all the amazing knives out there, and despise to you all it's misgivings, you carry it so long and so often. Forgive me if I don't take you seriously.

[eventhorizon]

Not that it'd ever happen, but for a while I've wondered if the CBBL could fit into a Military.

I'm a really big fan of that lock. Great compromise between the smoothness of a comp lock and the self close of a lockback.

This. The CBBL on my Manix 2 XL is such a joy to handle, super easy, super smooth, with or without gloves, in any situation.
I can easily flick it, it falls shut and the blade is perfectly centered. It feels so much sturdier, safer than the compression lock on my PM2. For me it's clearly the better lock, in literally every aspect.

But I do kinda get that the compression lock is considered a huge selling point for Spyderco, so I guess with the Military they will go that route ...and of course it makes sense for a Military/PM2/Para3 comp lock "family".

[kobold]

No wishful thinking can change the fact that the compression lock has four or five handicaps compared to other, superior locks. That should be enough to keep the Military in its present form alive.

Key point: if someone is not buying the Millie for its size (perceived as too big), he wont buy it with a compression lock either.
If someone is buying a knife with a compression lock for the 'fidget factor', he wont be buying the Military with a compression lock, but something smaller and cheaper instead.

[kobold]

Also something to keep in mind is that a compression lock is really a liner lock that's flipped upside down?
:)

[Nuh Nups]

The Military's biggest drawback is the Liner Lock

I feel the complete opposite. To me, it’s one of the biggest assets. The Military feels very secure when closing it with the liner lock. I don’t have to change my grip on the knife to disengage the lock. I’m not sure that a compression lock on a knife as large as the Military would be as easy to manipulate as it is on a knife like the Para 2 or Para 3. I do enjoy the compression lock on my smaller models. I’m just not sure it would feel as natural or as secure on a knife as large as the Military.

[JRinFL]

I have to change my grip to unlock any knife using any type of lock. How are people gripping their knife that they do not need to change their grip to disengage the lock?

[Nuh Nups]

I have to change my grip to unlock any knife using any type of lock. How are people gripping their knife that they do not need to change their grip to disengage the lock?

You’re right. I didn’t explain that well. I change my grip too but my grip remains more comfortable and secure (to me) when I’m moving my thumb over to the liner lock or to the CBBL style lock than it does when I adjust it to use the compression lock with my index finger. I think my “adjustment” or the reach for the compression lock on a larger folder would be even more noticeable. For me anyway. Part of this is probably because I work outside everyday and I’m in the group that wears gloves quite a bit while using my knives. I have been able to use the compression lock on other models while wearing gloves but with or without gloves, the liner lock is easier for me.

[JRinFL]

I have to change my grip to unlock any knife using any type of lock. How are people gripping their knife that they do not need to change their grip to disengage the lock?

You’re right. I didn’t explain that well. I change my grip too but my grip remains more comfortable and secure (to me) when I’m moving my thumb over to the liner lock or to the CBBL style lock than it does when I adjust it to use the compression lock with my index finger. I think my “adjustment” or the reach for the compression lock on a larger folder would be even more noticeable. For me anyway. Part of this is probably because I work outside everyday and I’m in the group that wears gloves quite a bit while using my knives. I have been able to use the compression lock on other models while wearing gloves but with or without gloves, the liner lock is easier for me.

Ah, OK. I really thought I might have been missing a technique or a trick. I also find CBBL & liners to be easier to unlock while maintaining a more secure grip.

[Nuh Nups]

[/quote]

Ah, OK. I really thought I might have been missing a technique or a trick. I also find CBBL & liners to be easier to unlock while maintaining a more secure grip.
[/quote]

:D Nope, I don’t think you’re missing anything. Pretty sure your grip has to change, it’s just the way it changes and how much. Unless someone is just fidgeting with the knife of course.

[Evil D]

I wonder if they've ever tried to do an upside down compression lock that operates like a liner lock?

[Woodpuppy]

Also something to keep in mind is that a compression lock is really a liner lock that's flipped upside down?
:)

Not quite. The compression lock bar also provides an interference fit with the stop pin such that when the blade is subjected to a closing force, the blade’s lock ramp pushes the lock bar up against the stop pin which can’t move. The liner lock lacks that geometry, and has a longer lock “finger” which could in theory be bent under force. All in all I think the compression lock is stronger. But, I also think the Millie’s liner lock is strong enough.

[mark greenman]

Sorry mate, You lost me when you said you'd carried a liner lock for 14 years and almost exclusively for the last 5 years and with all the amazing knives out there, and despise to you all it's misgivings, you carry it so long and so often. Forgive me if I don't take you seriously.

I love the handle, blade shape, blade size, and negative blade angle of the Military. I also really like the high carry, tip down clip, which makes it easier to grab in the AIWB configuration that I carry a pocket knife.

The liner lock certainly works, but its my least favored aspect of the knife.

But those misgivings are outweighed by the Military's otherwise sterling attributes.

[Fireman]

The Millie is my EDC at work.
For Wildland firefighters, we are supposed to be in fire rated gloves at all times fighting a fire except fueling chainsaws and drip torches which makes the Millie style lock a must imho.
The millie could be a back lock and that would be good with gloves as well but not so much a one handed option.

[aicolainen]

8< ————————-
The millie could be a back lock and that would be good with gloves as well but not so much a one handed option.

Why would you say that?
Mid back locks are probably my favorite lock type, and that’s exactly because they are so easy and intuitive to operate one handed.
With gloves and without.

[Wartstein]

8< ————————-
The millie could be a back lock and that would be good with gloves as well but not so much a one handed option.

Why would you say that?
Mid back locks are probably my favorite lock type, and that’s exactly because they are so easy and intuitive to operate one handed.
With gloves and without.

Very true!
While I think the linerlock is even easier to activate with gloves than the backlock, the latter has more convenient methods overall to be easily operated one handed

[James Y]

The liner lock is not among my favorite lock types. That said, IMO, the Military’s liner lock is THE perfect liner lock (or as perfect as can be humanly engineered). I really like it a lot. In my experience, the liner locks on Militaries seem lock up more solidly, and seem to last longer (have greater resistance to wear) than liner locks on some other companies’ knives. The Military is one of my all-time favorite knife designs. I own 4 of them.

Jim

[knifemovieguy]

Button lock millie would be nice, or any other lock except liner, comp and back lock