Civilian 2 Wish List - what would be today's perfect Civilian?

[DansGunBlog]

If FRN gets thrown in the mix, it suddenly becomes a Matriarch in my mind. There must be a need for a nicer looking serrated self defence knife otherwise Spyderco would stop producing the Civilian. I think it should stay G10 and maybe receive a tweak in the handle shape.

@Liquid Cobra dammit... i'm so torn on that. I'm personally more than hesitant to clip an FRN knife to my pocket (haven't yet, not sure I will lol), for wholly artificial reasons lol.

But that's why I brought it up above... an honest question, in a real world situation where there MAY be a fairly viscous substance involved and your life in the balance, what the **** do you want to be holding on to? what's the best and grippiest handle Spyderco can come up with for that environment?

Dan

[Liquid Cobra]

That's a really good question. I don't know! Haha.

G10 is plenty grippy, but it smooths out over time so that's not ideal. FRN doesnt really wear but I don't think it provides as much grip as G10.

[tvenuto]

The whole salt line is FRN, and is even the older volcano grip texture, and that doesn't seem to be causing problems. I'm of the mind that it's the most suitable choice based on the stated intent, but plenty of people drive their jeeps around the city, so I can appreciate that there might just be a preference for G10. Although I do say that FRN offers the best opportunity for hand filling contour.

[TomAiello]

Different steel, please.

Either H1 for extended carry or something like 3V for toughness. Probably H1 makes the most sense, especially since it's a serrated design.

[Liquid Cobra]

The whole salt line is FRN, and is even the older volcano grip texture, and that doesn't seem to be causing problems. I'm of the mind that it's the most suitable choice based on the stated intent, but plenty of people drive their jeeps around the city, so I can appreciate that there might just be a preference for G10. Although I do say that FRN offers the best opportunity for hand filling contour.

That's a good point about the Salt lines grip. Things get plenty slippery on the ocean. Do you think Spyderco would sell an FRN matriarch and civilian at the same time though?

I thought the intent of the Civilian was for undercover police and federal agents who need a knife that would be useful for self defence with little to no training where firearms aren't an option. Those kind of guys in my experience prefer G10 to FRN as it comes across as a better built knife. I'm not saying they're right, but any cop I've ever shown a delica/endura to has immediately scoffed at it being plastic. G10 is certainly up to the task for this model, that's why it's been built with G10 for so long.

Good discussion :)

[tvenuto]

Those kind of guys in my experience prefer G10 to FRN as it comes across as a better built knife. I'm not saying they're right, but any cop I've ever shown a delica/endura to has immediately scoffed at it being plastic. G10 is certainly up to the task for this model, that's why it's been built with G10 for so long.

Good discussion :)

An interesting bias from a guy trusting his life to a glock...but that's what I meant by I can appreciate a preference. Meaning it doesn't always have to be the ideal design choice, or chosen rationally.

[Studey]

Regarding the H1 discussion, I actually have a thread going on In the Spyderco forum on the USN about an H1 Matriarch as a forum knife.

[DansGunBlog]

Those kind of guys in my experience prefer G10 to FRN as it comes across as a better built knife. I'm not saying they're right, but any cop I've ever shown a delica/endura to has immediately scoffed at it being plastic. G10 is certainly up to the task for this model, that's why it's been built with G10 for so long.

Good discussion :)

An interesting bias from a guy trusting his life to a glock...but that's what I meant by I can appreciate a preference. Meaning it doesn't always have to be the ideal design choice, or chosen rationally.

LOL that applies to me as well I guess, have relied on Glocks for many years, it's just an excellent rock solid tool that works well and is a great value. Of course, having spent a highly enjoyable morning last week playing with the new VP9, H&K's answer to the Glock 17/19, I'm seriously considering one of those too now.

As I was saying above I have yet to clip an FRN Spydie to my pants pocket, for purely cosmetic reasons, G10 just looks so much better. That said, the Civilian is a very special purpose tool, so will be interested to see what is the most grippy option Spyderco can come up with for it and will go from there. :-)

Dan

[DansGunBlog]

Those kind of guys in my experience prefer G10 to FRN as it comes across as a better built knife. I'm not saying they're right, but any cop I've ever shown a delica/endura to has immediately scoffed at it being plastic. G10 is certainly up to the task for this model, that's why it's been built with G10 for so long.

Good discussion :)

An interesting bias from a guy trusting his life to a glock...but that's what I meant by I can appreciate a preference. Meaning it doesn't always have to be the ideal design choice, or chosen rationally.

LOL that applies to me as well I guess, have relied on Glocks for many years, it's just an excellent rock solid tool that works well and is a great value. Of course, having spent a highly enjoyable morning last week playing with the new VP9, H&K's answer to the Glock 17/19, I'm seriously considering one of those too now.

As I was saying above I have yet to clip an FRN Spydie to my pants pocket, for purely cosmetic reasons, G10 just looks so much better. That said, the Civilian is a very special purpose tool, so will be interested to see what is the most grippy option Spyderco can come up with for it and will go from there. :-)

Dan

[demoncase]

I'm going to come at this a different way- I own 2 Civis- one in VG10 and one in ATS-55.
I also own 3 Matriarchs- a Sprint original, a 2 and a Waved 2 in black...So these are my basis for comparison

Let's keep in mind that the Civi is intended for a specific use originally for LEOs- and those guys have to spring for their own knives.
Anything that 'jacks the price point' too high is unlikely to make the cut...I'm fairly certain that those hard working guys and gals aren't in the same pay bracket as I am fortunate enough to be.

What should the Civilian 2 keep the same?
1. The blade shape- that sinuous S shape is perfect for the intended role and the serrations are a must

2. The overall 'flatness' of the knife- it's big BUT it's slim. This aids both carry (low print) and deployment (it slips from the pocket easily). I do love bi-directional FRN like on my Matriarch 2s BUT this comes at the cost of added friction on the pocket lining as you draw.

3. Back lock- I can't see the Civi with anything else but.

4. The general balance of the knife- If you've never handled the Civilian, it's a masterpiece of refined ergonomics. It sits in my hand like it was made for me.

5. For such a large knife, Tip down is the way to go for me. I'd understand if the Civi 2 came drilled for leftie and rightie tip up and down- as long as it's still drilled for rightie tip down :)

What I'd like to see improved on the Civi 2
1. A deeper choil- in a 'pinch grip' a choil will aid the 'rocking' motion that you see in a lot of the moves that James Keating demonstrates in his (frankly terrifying-in-a-good-way) video on Youtube.

2. A larger Spyderhole AND the scale relieved deeper to get more thumb into it. That's my biggest complaint about my fat thumbs and where the Military wins on this- you can really dig in with that one!

3. A slimmed down 'butt' to the handle, maybe coming more to a 'point' like the Police or Yojimbo 2- it's the one bit of the grip that I feel could benefit from some CQI. The only issue there is the profile might end up too much like the Matriach in it's Endura4 grip.

4. Some 'manipulation divots' in the G10, as per the Lil Temp. These would make handy 'index points' and add more grip. 3 per side would do it.

Nice to haves/ Daft ideas
1. A sexier steel- (Nod to Cliff Stamp for not erroneously using the word 'better' here! :D )
While that's purely a 'lust' thing- for the intended role and amount of deployment my Civi gets, VG10 works fine and dandy.
I wouldn't say no to a different steel, but if it pushed the price point up too high then this would be the first thing I'd see as a sensible compromise.

2. Full stainless Police type build would be very slim, weighty and would make my wallet spontaneously run under the sofa to hide

3.Some different scale materials- Carbon fibre's always nice. And I'd love an Olive Drab G10. Or GITD. Or even full Ti.

Not fussed either way
1. Jimping.
I can take it or leave it- Not a deal breaker, but not essential in my book. The Yo2 is entirely lacking in jimping yet feels like it's welded to your hand.

2. FFG
Not a deal breaker. I do think the sabre-grind line somehow compliments the overall 'aesthetic' of the S-curve. I own a Matriarch Sprint FFG and it's also fine, but that extra line of interest on the blade is lacking somehow.

3.Liners- Single, Dual or none at all.
Not a problem- I'll buy it whatever.

[Polecat]

Love these ideas!

I really like 3 aspects I didn't think of:

Keep it THIN, but a thick blade

The manipulation divots mentioned, I think like they did on the Ed Schemp "Tuff" though would be cool.

Flat blade- how about a flat grind like on the Brown Matriarch sprints.

Please give it to us with and without serrations.

Dark gray aluminum scales would be cool

Think "Big, Light, Razor thin, and Razor sharp!

Thanks!

[The Deacon]

Current Civilian handle with dual liners, drilled & tapped for L/R tip down carry, and paired with a 2mm "Military style" blade.

[zhyla]

Let's keep in mind that the Civi is intended for a specific use originally for LEOs- and those guys have to spring for their own knives.
Anything that 'jacks the price point' too high is unlikely to make the cut...I'm fairly certain that those hard working guys and gals aren't in the same pay bracket as I am fortunate enough to be.

I think it's quite the opposite. General LEO's don't buy these. They buy regular working knives. The special undercover agent use case is pretty niche and if they have a knife it will probably be something inconspicuous, though the price probably doesn't matter much.

I think the Civilian is primarily an enthusiast knife. Might as well ham it up with the most über of materials.

I'd rather see a Harpy XL than another Civilian. Leave this kind of stuff to Cold Steel.

[demoncase]

Let's keep in mind that the Civi is intended for a specific use originally for LEOs- and those guys have to spring for their own knives.
Anything that 'jacks the price point' too high is unlikely to make the cut...I'm fairly certain that those hard working guys and gals aren't in the same pay bracket as I am fortunate enough to be.

I think it's quite the opposite. General LEO's don't buy these. They buy regular working knives. The special undercover agent use case is pretty niche and if they have a knife it will probably be something inconspicuous, though the price probably doesn't matter much.

I think the Civilian is primarily an enthusiast knife. Might as well ham it up with the most über of materials.

I'd rather see a Harpy XL than another Civilian. Leave this kind of stuff to Cold Steel.

Hence my use of the word 'originally'- how that's panned out in the end is, as you note and I concur, quite different....On the price point issue, Sal himself has mentioned this a number of times, so I go with what the man says on the subject.

However, I disagree that the Civilian shouldn't get a -2 iteration and 'we should leave that type of thing to CS'
The Civlian is a maintstay of the Spyderco line- I would go so far as to say it's a defining model in terms of applying their design ethos to a defensive knife. While the Civi doesn't have the wider utility of the rest of the Spyderco range, Sal and Eric have many knives in their current line up which have an obvious MBC or personal protection application front and centre.

With the 'Shiny Footprints' in mind I won't expand on Cold Steel but will close by saying I've never seen a Spyderco employee using a Civilian for a ham-fisted attempt at pig butchery on Youtube.

[tvenuto]

However, I disagree that the Civilian shouldn't get a -2 iteration and 'we should leave that type of thing to CS'
The Civlian is a maintstay of the Spyderco line- I would go so far as to say it's a defining model in terms of applying their design ethos to a defensive knife. While the Civi doesn't have the wider utility of the rest of the Spyderco range, Sal and Eric have many knives in their current line up which have an obvious MBC or personal protection application front and centre.

With the 'Shiny Footprints' in mind I won't expand on Cold Steel but will close by saying I've never seen a Spyderco employee using a Civilian for a ham-fisted attempt at pig butchery on Youtube.

I'm inclined to agree with Demon here. Even though I have virtually no interest in this kind of design, we have to acknowledge that the C12 was the progenitor of Spyderco's many reverse S designs, of which there are quite a few. As such, it's quite an iconic Spyderco model, perhaps even more than get's mentioned.

Ha, "ham-fisted attempt at pig butchery." I guess there's a fine line between legitimate testing and self indulgence for carnage.

[Bill1170]

It seems to me that bidirectional FRN will grip better when wet than G-10 will, and that function should take precedence over fashion in the Civilian line, more than with most models.

H-1 has some advantages over VG-10 for this particular model, but the most important one might be its greater resistance to shattering when bent. SE edge holding and higher corrosion resistance are secondary benefits, in my opinion.

[demoncase]

It seems to me that bidirectional FRN will grip better when wet than G-10 will, and that function should take precedence over fashion in the Civilian line, more than with most models.

But the Matriarch 2's already got that- that's the point of an urge to shy away from it in the discussions about what a Civi 2 should be.

[DansGunBlog]

It seems to me that bidirectional FRN will grip better when wet than G-10 will, and that function should take precedence over fashion in the Civilian line, more than with most models.

But the Matriarch 2's already got that- that's the point of an urge to shy away from it in the discussions about what a Civi 2 should be.

True, and that was my hesitation as well.

but to fully explore this topic, I think it all needs to be on the table here... not for the budget cousin (the Matriarch), but for what would make THE BEST CIVILIAN 2.0 as engineered and built today...

Dan

[The Deacon]

It seems to me that bidirectional FRN will grip better when wet than G-10 will, and that function should take precedence over fashion in the Civilian line, more than with most models.

If traction is the primary goal, and cost is not a factor, then US made peel-ply carbon fiber would be the top choice.

True, and that was my hesitation as well.

but to fully explore this topic, I think it all needs to be on the table here... not for the budget cousin (the Matriarch), but for what would make THE BEST CIVILIAN 2.0 as engineered and built today...

Dan

FRN "works" for the Matriarch because it shares a handle with better selling models. The Civilian does not, so investing $40K or more in a mold would probably put FRN off the table, no matter how much better grip it might offer.

[Chinook3]

I love FRN,,,but not for this knife. I prefer a little more weight with a knife, especially with the Civilian and the way you can use it. A little more weight feels better in the hand.
As far as a front choil on the Civilian I feel it gives the user a little more finger protection and perhaps dexterity IF needed.
A XL version would be really sweet, or maybe a little longer blade :eek: black blade, Carbon Fiber......

The Civilian is one of my favorite knives, if there is never a change made I will still die a happy man :spyder: