Tatanka vs Voyager lock strength test By Cold Steel

[Evil D]

Going back to the car metaphor it's comparing two V10 exotics. One tops out at 190 mph and the other will hit 200mph, which one is fast enough for your needs? I guess it depends on how petty you are about bragging with your tombstone...

Much like pushing a folding knife to the point that it breaks, when will you ever be able to push those two cars to their limit without risk of death or prison?

The car world is strangely a very good comparison to the knife world when you start comparing extreme limits. For example, the Bugatti Veyron may be able to go 255mph or whatever it can do, but it takes a 5 mile straight runway to get there, while the Hennessey Venom GT can do 270mph in just over a mile. Even beyond that, both of those cars are going to cost you over a million dollars, but neither one of them can lap a racetrack faster than an Ariel Atom V8 which can be had for about $185k. You can then start splitting hairs on ride quality and luxury and even exclusivity, but that's exactly my point...if you only focus on one aspect of something, you will always find one that can beat all the rest, but you are most likely compromising on a lot of other things. If that one thing is all you care about, then more power to ya, but when the company that sells you that product puts so much emphasis on its ability to do that one thing, you'd be ignorant to not wonder what they're drawing your attention away from.

[Surfingringo]

Going back to the car metaphor it's comparing two V10 exotics. One tops out at 190 mph and the other will hit 200mph, which one is fast enough for your needs? I guess it depends on how petty you are about bragging with your tombstone...

Much like pushing a folding knife to the point that it breaks, when will you ever be able to push those two cars to their limit without risk of death or prison?

What if your best bud is trapped in a burning car and you need every second in order to be able to get there and then cut the door off with your pocket knife before it explodes?? Hmmm?? Hmmm????

[Surfingringo]

Going back to the car metaphor it's comparing two V10 exotics. One tops out at 190 mph and the other will hit 200mph, which one is fast enough for your needs? I guess it depends on how petty you are about bragging with your tombstone...

Much like pushing a folding knife to the point that it breaks, when will you ever be able to push those two cars to their limit without risk of death or prison?

The car world is strangely a very good comparison to the knife world when you start comparing extreme limits. For example, the Bugatti Veyron may be able to go 255mph or whatever it can do, but it takes a 5 mile straight runway to get there, while the Hennessey Venom GT can do 270mph in just over a mile. Even beyond that, both of those cars are going to cost you over a million dollars, but neither one of them can lap a racetrack faster than an Ariel Atom V8 which can be had for about $185k. You can then start splitting hairs on ride quality and luxury and even exclusivity, but that's exactly my point...if you only focus on one aspect of something, you will always find one that can beat all the rest, but you are most likely compromising on a lot of other things. If that one thing is all you care about, then more power to ya, but when the company that sells you that product puts so much emphasis on its ability to do that one thing, you'd be ignorant to not wonder what they're drawing your attention away from.

Excellent post BTW. ^

[Blerv]

Yep for sure David :). That's what I think when people genuinely ask if Delica's lock is strong enough for EDC, lol.

The same people that are debating which supercar is fastest likely have even ridden in a Miata on the track at full boil. An experience that would leave them satisfied at the least and more likely terrified into a second pair of pants.

We all want black and white answers for such a grey world. IMO, buy toys/tools that speak to you or buy more rugged replacements (after breakage). Buying based on assumption of failure often is not accurate and just leaves you compromising in another area of performance. A heavy knife that doesn't slice well typically for that insane level of durability. A sports car that beats you to death on a commute and can't enter steep driveways but will never see the track.

Also, many quality hard use knives that are appealing (to me) are very expensive. I guess that still makes more sense than an uninsured lap in a $120,000 car beyond one's abilities

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Well let me ask it this way, and I know this question has likely been asked before in different ways: Can I have 100 percent assurance that if I had to survive in the woods or jungle or desert with an Endura (Saber Grind, FRN handles), can I trust the lock to hold up to practically whatever cutting task I had to throw at it? I would not waste or endanger it to open coconuts, ofcourse, but I mean being used to skin and prepare and process meat and fish animals, make shelters, as an emergency weapon against hostile four legged or other beasts, and so on? I think the answer is an affirmative yes.

Alright, I may not be able to hack my way out of a steel car with it, but, it could extend one's life span if called upon in a survival situation in the wilderness.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

WOW! Well check this out guys:

https://youtu.be/4KmHfbG7z7g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These men did knife lock strength tests and the SPYDERCO TENACIOUS WAS ABLE TO HANDLE 380 POUNDS OF WEIGHT while the Kershaw and 5.11 tactical knife locks broke at much less weight scales.

*****runs out to get myself a Spyderco TENACIOUS

But is this one real or faked?

https://youtu.be/LYQRxArvYmQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The guy claims that the Endura lock broke when he hit the blade against the wood surface.

Here a guy uses an Endura Wave to open a beer bottle lol:

https://youtu.be/N7d5rm5j37k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Doc Dan]

When I was a Medic I used to have to do rescue work. Believe me when I tell you that a strong lock equals peace of mind in those scenarios (I actually love my fingers). Whether it was a car wreck or a climber tangled way up high, a knife gets a lot of stress on the pivot and on the lock. The same was true on our farm. Certain chores, often surprised (cattle can do the dumbest, but also most surprising things...I can tell stories) us and the knife we had in our pockets was what we had to use. (I do not like liner locks to this day because of my experiences) Knives get stressed beyond their design envelops (if they even had one!) often of necessity. I cannot imagine anyone disparaging the idea of a stronger lock and a stronger knife design.

[Blerv]

When I was a Medic I used to have to do rescue work. Believe me when I tell you that a strong lock equals peace of mind in those scenarios (I actually love my fingers). Whether it was a car wreck or a climber tangled way up high, a knife gets a lot of stress on the pivot and on the lock. The same was true on our farm. Certain chores, often surprised (cattle can do the dumbest, but also most surprising things...I can tell stories) us and the knife we had in our pockets was what we had to use. (I do not like liner locks to this day because of my experiences) Knives get stressed beyond their design envelops (if they even had one!) often of necessity. I cannot imagine anyone disparaging the idea of a stronger lock and a stronger knife design.

What do you mean by "strong lock" though? The Delica4 lock is rated for at LEAST 100 pounds per inch of blade. For fun once I tried my hardest to collapse a Ladybug FRN (with my fingers) and wasn't able to. I cannot fathom what I would take to break a Para2 or Gayle Bradley folder's lock, especially in real use. I'm sure it would require a weight set and some type of swinging arm contraption. You know...totally normal EDC stuff. :rolleyes:

When people say, "I value a strong lock" they need to define what that means. At what point are you willing to give up something for that extra 10% or 20%. Are you ok with heavy knives, expensive knives, or having a radically reduced amount of models to shop from? It's the same logic of, "I want a work truck" so people go buy diesel 1-tons when they have a pair of jetskis and like to shop at Costco. They eliminated 95% of the options for sake of payload/towing bragging rights to pay $55,000 for something they can't park in the city.

If someone wants a fun tool simply for the sake of wanting it that is fine. If they have a history of breaking locks (and specifically the competing models) again I think it's a totally valid approach. Tradesmen have been using folders with marginal locks for hundreds of years and friction folders without injury so I'm not sure I buy that in our modern line of work some of these things are necessities.

With the progression of technology I always appreciate performance increases without loss to sophistication. I won't knock other manufacturers for their goals but know that Spyderco has never backed away from making expensive high performance tools and just increasing the MSRP. If they strangely decided long ago that their "hard use" knives needed to withstand a shotgun slug they would have engineered for that task. It would have made a great video and slogan but I'm not sure how it would help the end line user.

[Bodog]

Cold Steel has the luxury of hand picking the best knife to test whereas whichever spyderco knife gets sent to then will be the one in the spotlight. Can the designer of the lock go through 200 knives and pick the best one which has all the parts properly ground and fitted?

If you are a cold steel buyer do they afford you the same opportunity?

Have 10 random voyagers sent from random dealers and 10 random tatankas sent from 10 random dealers and then you have some statistics. And it shouldn't be the one who stands to profit doing the tests unless the tests are absolutely blind.

[Blerv]

Have 10 random voyagers sent from random dealers and 10 random tatankas sent from 10 random dealers and then you have some statistics. And it shouldn't be the one who stands to profit doing the tests unless the tests are absolutely blind.

Not to knock CS (or anyone) but like you said video evidence is really only shown if it benefits your consumer base. If it doesn't...you don't show the video. Ever notice how on Youtube there is nothing but successful skateboard tricks but you never see them on the street? Lol.

In situations of third-party reviewers (Cliff, Jim, etc) who show honest comparisons the problem as you mentioned is they usually only have one of each. Even if they were given 10 (or 100) of a particular product that is a ton of processing to do. For someone who likely isn't paid at all, in part to be less biased.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Is there some way that an automated computer testing system could be set up, which would be fair and objective, to test the lock and other strengths such as blade cutting abilities of a particular knife, in an unbiased way, or is that still beyond our capabilities with knife companies?

[Doc Dan]

Folks, a LOT of people have tested the Triad Lock (not just CS), many of which have been extreme. Other tests were repeated by Cold Steel and made public after becoming known to CS. It is a great lock design, probably the best available now. This is true, whether or not you like CS and whether or not you like a back lock.

[awa54]

Well let me ask it this way, and I know this question has likely been asked before in different ways: Can I have 100 percent assurance that if I had to survive in the woods or jungle or desert with an Endura (Saber Grind, FRN handles), can I trust the lock to hold up to practically whatever cutting task I had to throw at it? I would not waste or endanger it to open coconuts, ofcourse, but I mean being used to skin and prepare and process meat and fish animals, make shelters, as an emergency weapon against hostile four legged or other beasts, and so on? I think the answer is an affirmative yes.

Alright, I may not be able to hack my way out of a steel car with it, but, it could extend one's life span if called upon in a survival situation in the wilderness.

Take a look at how many "bushcraft" knives are folders... If you really wanted a bomb-proof survival blade it would be a simple, robust fixed blade. Folders are all about convenience and concessions to polite society. But as you say, any well built folding knife is capable of doing plenty of hard work without breaking, especially if it's used as a knife and not a hammer/crowbar/screwdriver.

Personally I'd invest more effort in avoiding situations where a knife and my wits were all I had to depend on

[Blerv]

I don't think (most) people aren't trusting of the CS results or the lock. My own little snippet was just that with video "proof" videos or even "reviews" the intent of the person doing the research and releasing the research has to be considered. There are people who strive to be unbiased with multiple tests and releasing good AND bad data, others that simply use results for marketing.

I'm glad CS did the test. I hope it sells them a ton of Voyagers. I just don't see how this would "impact" ( ) the average buyer's opinion much. If Spyderco tests the Tatanka compared to their other locks and finds it strong, and we trust in those models, this one should be more than sufficient.

IMHO, lock-breaking should be one of many tests to consider in buying a knife. Even if I believed I would submit the tool to thousands of pounds of impact at the pivot it's still only one factor of performance. Do I like the aesthetics and ergonomics? How does it slice? How does it carry? How do I feel about the company? Is the price within my budget?

There are people who buy and drive cars designed for 1/8th mile drag racing. It's a VERY isolated test of a cars overall performance.

[PolarisDesu]

I honestly cannot believe how neutral most of the people are on this issue. And I say most, because it is not some. Politeness is quite an attribute, but do not take it that far, to the point you end up being the advocate of the devil. Or with another analogy, a murderer's defender. Why could I state something like this?

Well, improving locking mechanism will always be a good thing, coming from the company it comes. Since it is an aspect to consider from a knife, whether it is the most important aspect or not. But guys, check the videos again, this is not a promotion for the improvement of equipment in the knife community, it is a idiotic, clear, simple and obvious silly marketing approach (There is not even an apex of scientific methodology applied on those tests, one example comes with the weight release, it is controlled by the hand of a person, which even if we say that he releases the weight equally in every experiment, due to human limitations, the amount of stress applied will always be different because we cannot control something like that). And if you don't like what I say, look at the end of the videos, the summaries are basically saying, that their knifes are cheaper, stronger, better, etc. without the slightness consideration of any kind whatsoever.

Open your eyes devil advocates... I cannot believe how long this discussion went.

[Evil D]

I honestly cannot believe how neutral most of the people are on this issue. And I say most, because it is not some. Politeness is quite an attribute, but do not take it that far, to the point you end up being the advocate of the devil. Or with another analogy, a murderer's defender. Why could I state something like this?

Well, improving locking mechanism will always be a good thing, coming from the company it comes. Since it is an aspect to consider from a knife, whether it is the most important aspect or not. But guys, check the videos again, this is not a promotion for the improvement of equipment in the knife community, it is a idiotic, clear, simple and obvious silly marketing approach (There is not even an apex of scientific methodology applied on those tests, one example comes with the weight release, it is controlled by the hand of a person, which even if we say that he releases the weight equally in every experiment, due to human limitations, the amount of stress applied will always be different because we cannot control something like that). And if you don't like what I say, look at the end of the videos, the summaries are basically saying, that their knifes are cheaper, stronger, better, etc. without the slightness consideration of any kind whatsoever.

Open your eyes devil advocates... I cannot believe how long this discussion went.

I think the neutrality you see is along the lines of rising above the issue, but also because this is what Sal and Spyderco have asked of us as members of this forum. So, it's a safe bet that a lot of people have some very choice things to say about this subject, but they simply keep it to themselves.

You may want to give this thread a quick read viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28093

[PolarisDesu]

I think the neutrality you see is along the lines of rising above the issue, but also because this is what Sal and Spyderco have asked of us as members of this forum. So, it's a safe bet that a lot of people have some very choice things to say about this subject, but they simply keep it to themselves.

You may want to give this thread a quick read viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28093

Ooooooookay...

I think than that thread is just a reminder of how we should be as persons.

But coming back to the point.

The neutrality you seem to rise about the issue, probably is going way over the clouds on the sky... My point was that the way you were making up all those fancy stories when we can simply sum it up to bad marketing.

The more models are out there, the better it is for everyone, the more mechanism are out there, the better it is for everyone, but that, is not better for anyone, nor even for themselves...

[Evil D]

I think the neutrality you see is along the lines of rising above the issue, but also because this is what Sal and Spyderco have asked of us as members of this forum. So, it's a safe bet that a lot of people have some very choice things to say about this subject, but they simply keep it to themselves.

You may want to give this thread a quick read viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28093

Ooooooookay...

I think than that thread is just a reminder of how we should be as persons.

But coming back to the point.

The neutrality you seem to rise about the issue, probably is going way over the clouds on the sky... My point was that the way you were making up all those fancy stories when we can simply sum it up to bad marketing.

The more models are out there, the better it is for everyone, the more mechanism are out there, the better it is for everyone, but that, is not better for anyone, nor even for themselves...

Yes, I think we're all well aware of that. The part you're missing is that it's so blatantly obvious that it's poor marketing that it doesn't need to be said. The people who know well enough aren't buying into the hype BS and they know they don't need to grab their torch and pitchfork and round up a mob to protest about it.

I think your problem here is believing there's a neutrality at all, when clearly people have made their choice. Do you see Spyderco going out of business because of lost sales due to lock strength hype? Aren't we all still here on this forum, still buying up knives? What you call neutrality is more like rising above an issue that is clearly beneath us.

What exactly would you prefer we all do? Sign a petition? Boycott? Call our congressman?

[PolarisDesu]

Yes, I think we're all well aware of that. The part you're missing is that it's so blatantly obvious that it's poor marketing that it doesn't need to be said. The people who know well enough aren't buying into the hype BS and they know they don't need to grab their torch and pitchfork and round up a mob to protest about it.

I think your problem here is believing there's a neutrality at all, when clearly people have made their choice. Do you see Spyderco going out of business because of lost sales due to lock strength hype? Aren't we all still here on this forum, still buying up knives? What you call neutrality is more like rising above an issue that is clearly beneath us.

What exactly would you prefer we all do? Sign a petition? Boycott? Call our congressman?

Let me calm my surprise for a second first. If it is so obvious, what is the point of all this storytelling and verbiage? Simply say it and case closed.

Regarding my opinion of neutrality, it simply comes from seeing the extend of politeness expressed on this thread, which I think is overdone and backed up with all those fancy stories when it can be simply cataloged rather than silently rejected and actively accepted.

You obviously know that a knife is the union of different aspects? You are here because you like cutlery, in the way I ended up here for the same reason, how is that related to this topic? And as I said, or you sort of accepted, you (plural) went out a little bit over the clouds.

To be honest with you, I kinda dislike the tone of your rhetoric questions...

[Evil D]

Yes, I think we're all well aware of that. The part you're missing is that it's so blatantly obvious that it's poor marketing that it doesn't need to be said. The people who know well enough aren't buying into the hype BS and they know they don't need to grab their torch and pitchfork and round up a mob to protest about it.

I think your problem here is believing there's a neutrality at all, when clearly people have made their choice. Do you see Spyderco going out of business because of lost sales due to lock strength hype? Aren't we all still here on this forum, still buying up knives? What you call neutrality is more like rising above an issue that is clearly beneath us.

What exactly would you prefer we all do? Sign a petition? Boycott? Call our congressman?

Let me calm my surprise for a second first. If it is so obvious, what is the point of all this storytelling and verbiage? Simply say it and case closed.

Regarding my opinion of neutrality, it simply comes from seeing the extend of politeness expressed on this thread, which I think is overdone and backed up with all those fancy stories when it can be simply cataloged rather than silently rejected and actively accepted.

You obviously know that a knife is the union of different aspects? You are here because you like cutlery, in the way I ended up here for the same reason, how is that related to this topic? And as I said, or you sort of accepted, you (plural) went out a little bit over the clouds.

To be honest with you, I kinda dislike the tone of your rhetoric questions...

The more I read your posts, the less I understand exactly what you're trying to accomplish. So, I'm just gonna take the same above the clouds approach as I apparently take with this topic, and take my rhetorical questions elsewhere and you can carry on doing whatever it is you're trying to do here.