Believe It Or Not - Shapton Glass

[jackknifeh]

One thing I'd like to mention is something many of you already know but I have just truely thought about it. The higher the grit we use the lighter the strokes need to be. Actually when using stones that cut well using a lot of pressure isn't needed and is probably anti-productive. MR mentioned in his list to always use lighter strokes on each grit as the last few strokes. Starting with the 4k (or even 2k) I seem to be getting better results when NEVER using what I call a lot of pressure. In addition to better results I'm sure it makes the stones last longer as well. When I was using my Arkansas med. stone years ago I remember using a LOT of pressure when the edge was really dull. The stone was well used, never really cleaned and absolutely NEVER flattened so I'm sure it was pretty clogged. So it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) the higher the grit the lighter the pressure especially on the finishing strokes. This results in a better mirror finish as well as a smoother (less toothy) edge. As I said this may be a new philosiphy to me but already known by many.

Jack

[Cliff Stamp]

No worries, has anyone used the very low grit Shapton's? I have a 240X Sigma Power Select II which is decent but is a little too friable so far, though I need to check it on some other steels, mainly on VG-10 and similar so far.

[jackknifeh]

No worries, has anyone used the very low grit Shapton's? I have a 240X Sigma Power Select II which is decent but is a little too friable so far, though I need to check it on some other steels, mainly on VG-10 and similar so far.

The lowest I have is a 500 grit for the EP. It leaves a more consistant scratch pattern with less random deeper scratches than the water stones that come with the EP. More similar to the moldmaster stones. I only use it for re-profiling when a lot of steel needs to be removed. I would like the 500 and 1k grit more than less expensive stones if I wanted to leave the bevel and the edge with a VERY toothy edge. But, since I only remove steel this rapidly knowing I'm going to use higher grit stones I'm not planning on getting anything of a lower grit in Shapton glass. I will use moldmasters which cut very fast and leave a hazy scratch pattern compared to deeper scratch lines of the stones that come with the EP. The 500 grit does cut very fast though. I've had very inconsistant results from the EP stones in the lower grits. One 220 grit stone may remove steel faster than another 220 grit when I have replaced one. I've never replaced a Shapton glass stone though so if I were to get another 500 grit it may act a little different than the one I have now. So for me I'd rather save money by getting less expensive stones in the lower grits only because I'll erase any scratch pattern they create. I believe the benefit of the more expensive stones comes out in the higher grits (2k and higher). Just my opinion which is extremely limited regarding a wide variety of stones.

Jack

[Evil D]

No worries, has anyone used the very low grit Shapton's? I have a 240X Sigma Power Select II which is decent but is a little too friable so far, though I need to check it on some other steels, mainly on VG-10 and similar so far.

I have the 220 and 320, and they both cut extremely aggressive in my (some what limited) opinion. They cut far more aggressive than any diamond stone I've used, though the lowest I have in the Atoma plates is 400. I have some diamond stones for my old Lansky setup and they don't cut ANYWHERE near as aggressive as the 220 glass does (**** for that matter they don't cut as aggressive as the coarse stock Edge Pro stones do either, but those wear extremely fast). I'm pretty impressive with how slow they wear too, they're all pretty close to the same thickness still. I do plan on getting the lower grit Atomas though...I'm really happy with the 400 and 600 I have, I'll likely get the entire grit range that they offer. Call me lazy but it's very convenient not having to worry about stone thickness variances when dealing with the plates and not having to lap my stones all the time. They also have a very consistent diamond pattern and give equally consistent scratch patterns.

[razorsharp]

No worries, has anyone used the very low grit Shapton's? I have a 240X Sigma Power Select II which is decent but is a little too friable so far, though I need to check it on some other steels, mainly on VG-10 and similar so far.

I haven't had thaaaat much experience with my Shaptons yet, but can say that it's easy to put a scary edge on your knife with any of the grits. 320 is a **** Buzz saw; as is 500, they just need some gentle strokes to finish with, obviously.

Also, I used my edge pro stock stones like, once... Reprofiling with the 320 is very fast.

[Gary W Graley]

I've since sold my EdgePro setup but kept my Glass Shapton stones for free hand sharpening and this morning was checking some edges and agree the 500 grit does provide a very nice toothy edge that is still razor sharp, me like

Above that I have the 2k and 8k but for regular use I will probably go up to the 500 grit one and a light stropping when done. For knives that will be trimming leather or whittling I may go up to the 8k for a super fine edge but for normal edc I don't see the need to lose the edginess that the Shapton glass at 500 grit provides.

As noted before, it's key to obtain a burr otherwise you've not reached the apex and won't see a good edge until you do, so persevere until that happens, or watch your angles if you are free hand sharpening.

I've changed my method of free hand from the 'traditional' slicing into the stone and have moved to a backward stropping method, for me this provides better control and I'm able to get consistent bevels easier this way, plus, when I move to the strop, it's the same motion as the sharpening.

I've read some where that pushing your finely tuned edge into a jumble of micro stumbling blocks of grit may not be the best for that edge, in my mind I can see that might be a real hazard, but maybe that's all conjecture, for me, since changing, I don't see going back to my old way of sharpening, if it works, it works

I might check and see if I can get a 1k grit shapton, but for now, the 500 does super well, plus the lower grits to get up to that point of course! depending on the severity of how your bevels are to begin with.

G2

[jackknifeh]

I've changed my method of free hand from the 'traditional' slicing into the stone and have moved to a backward stropping method, for me this provides better control and I'm able to get consistent bevels easier this way, plus, when I move to the strop, it's the same motion as the sharpening.

G2

I've never heard of anyone using only trailing strokes on the stones but I suppose grinding is grinding no matter what direction it's in. The only problem area I can think of is straightening a burr instead of abrading or grinding it off until the bevel is flat right up to the edge apex. When using push strokes the edge can't be straightened out in front of the edge. A straightened burr will be weaker steel than steel that hasn't been bent one way then the other. The weaked steel will probably snap off very shortly after using the knife leaving the edge jagged. Not jagged like a nice sharp toothy edge but jagged and not cutting as well. Even when using high quality steel if there is a burr or straightened burr that snaps off it may lead us to believe the steel has poor edge retention when in fact it's not the steel at all. When finishing the edge on any grit it's essential to use as light a stroke as you possibly can. If the pressure is light enough even if you are using trailing strokes the stone should abrade the burr down to the bevel and edge apex instead of bending it out straight. I believe this holds true even for burrs that are so very small they are very difficult to detect. What I like to do is on the last 3-5 strokes per side I pretend there is a burr on the edge and touch the stone with as light an amount off pressure as is humanly possible and each stroke start at the heel and finish at the tip. I do one stroke on one side then a stroke on the other. I never do more than one stroke on the same side when doing these final strokes. By doing this I am getting the edge sharp enough that if I want to strop I already know there is no burr and any stropping is also using Very light strokes and as with the stones the last few strokes are using as light a pressure as I can. Literally barely touching the edge. Using these light strokes to eliminate any possibility of any burrs (as much as possible) is a huge key in creating very crisp, razor sharp (literally) edges that stay sharp longer.

All I wanted to say was to be careful not to straighten a burr. As usual, I got carried away. Sorry about that. I would make a new year's resolution to stop doing that but I doubt it would take.

Jack
Edit
I think the only way for the light strokes I'm doing to really do any good is the stone and/or stropping compound needs to be good quality. When such a small amount of pressure is applied the thing the edge is touching needs to be aggressive enough to cut steel, even if it's only at the almost microscopic level.

[Gary W Graley]

Then I reckon my post fits right in with the title of this thread "Believe it or not..." but yep, and the method is working extremely well for me, so far at least. Now when there is need to really adjust a badly worn blade's bevels I'll sharpen a bit more coarsely both directions but mainly going from tip to heel and at about a 45 degree angle so the resulting scratches are at that angle as well, making a more aggressive bite to the cut. As I get to the 500 grit stones I'll do alternating passes one per side, to keep things evened out and then very very lightly on the leather strop as well. As I say, it's sometimes very personal thing this sharpening world, but in changing to this method, I've been able to get a knife razor sharp in much faster time and with very little trouble, as I will touch up guys blades at work and I don't have much time to spend.

As I'm moving the blade across the stones, I'm holding the stone in my left hand and the knife in my right, with my index finger/or thumb depending on direction, pushing down on the side of the blade, so I'm not putting any sideways pressure against the blades pivot area, just seems better for the knife overall to not apply sidewards pressure if not needed.

And Jack, we always love to read what you write, so no worries about being too prolific, there is always something to learn for sure!
I see they have some 1k's in stock but right now I'm $ shy so it'll be a while before I can swing getting one, but the 500k will keep me sharp for now.
G2

[Gary W Graley]

Well, in watching real close on just what I am doing, I believe there is some forward passes that do happen, so I think for the most part you're right, Grinding is grinding and for me the tip to heel backward stroke provides me a positive means of keeping the same angle, easier, while I've for YEARS did it the other way, this was quite a departure for me to even try it! but, I'm glad I did. My bevels are not too wide, and it seems easier to make them this way also.

Just an update
G2