Newbie needing advice (SD - CCW)

[kuru]

Hello All,

First post here but I’ve been reading through the forum for a week or so now. I’ve learned a lot. I’m looking to buy my first knife and after briefly looking around at the big names, Spyderco quickly caught my eye. I really like the look of them and can already get an idea of why you all are such fans. I want to buy a knife specifically for SD (I don’t need one for everyday cutting) and I’m stuck between a Civilian and a Chinook III (though I can’t wait to see the 2008 catalog). I leaning more towards the Civilian because of the style but I can see why the Chinook may be better. I was hoping I could get some feedback from you guys on which you think would be better for SD and why.

Also, after reading through the forum I was surprised to learn of the legal issues surrounding carrying one of these. I figure to be safe I’ll need to get a concealed weapon’s permit so I don’t have to worry about much of that (at least while in FL). I assume that the only problem I may have is if I actually have to use it but I would hope that the situation itself would make it an obvious act of self-defense. I haven’t read much mention on the forum here about problems carrying while having a permit so I was also hoping to get some feedback on this topic too (specifically that I won’t need to worry about being arrested as long as I’ve got a permit).

Thanks in advance,
Kuru
Spyderco Fanatic In-Training

[mikebandw186]

In terms of SD, Michael Cook, KaliGMan, and Docs Snubnose and Lecter will probably chime in, and have a better answer than myself.

But back to your question, the chinook 3 would, in my opinion, be the better knife. Better steel, better lock, less threatening blade shape if you were to go to court.

Also, the P'Kal would be a great knife for SD, if you are trained in that style. And it can typically be found cheaper than a Civilian.

And don't forget the Lava. An amazing small knife for SD, and definitely non threatening in court, should the worst situation happen.

[Qship]

As I understand it, and you should check, a Florida CCW permit covers knives and a variety of weapons. This is not true for many states.

Neither a gun or a knife is much use without solid training.

For a good over view of the legal use of lethal force, see:

http://www.ayoob.com/df.html

There is Problem One, which is winning the fight, and Problem Two, which is surviving the criminal charges and the civil litigation that may follow if you defend your self.

For knife training, see:

http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/

For firearms training, see:

http://pw2.netcom.com/~chingesh/CooperTrainers.html

and

http://www.gunsite.com/

The Civilian is not particularly adaptable to Filipino martial arts tactics, and it may be hard to find training.

If you travel out of Florida, the Chinook blade is too long to be legal some places. That said, Keating gives seminars, see:

http://www.jamesakeating.com/Catalog4.html

Qship

[Dr. Snubnose]

There is nothing like training: I don't know your skill level however if it is non-existent you might consider that Civilian over the Chinook III....Doc :D

[Agent Starling]

I'd go w/ the Chinook if it was a matter of choosing between the two knives you mention. Don't quote me on this, but IIRC from what I've read on these forums I believe the Chinook II actually outperforms the III. Better yet I'd go with a Delica or Endura, but that's just my personal preference.

There are a lot of legal issues to be sure, and I'm not under the impression that a carry permit would absolve a person of responsibility, nor automatically put you in the right if a conflict were to occur. This is based on what I know to be true about my own state's laws and CCW permit.

Also you need to find out the legal blade length in your state. In the state in which I live, that legal limit varies somewhat even from city to city within my metropolitan area. To further complicate things, different police officers may have different takes on whether your knife is kosher or not; again, my experience is from my state where most of us have moved here from some other state...so the LEO may go by what he knows to be legal where he comes from, or may not know the legal blade length in your state...or the knife might just look menacing and so bye-bye to the knife... :rolleyes:

Just my $0.02...

Also, welcome to the forums! :)

Agent Starling

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: If you have no training or interest in training I'd recommend an asp baton or cold steel shambok instead of an edged weapon. :spyder:

[spydutch]

Very welcome to the forums :cool:

[224477]

OK, just a quick brain storming between Chinook III and Civie:

Civie is one purpose knife only, you gotta live with that and it "may" suit you more if you dont know anything about knife SD...

Chinook III - great for SD, great for outdoor, great for utility... MBC approved IIRC. Much easier to sharpen in comparison to Civie..

[KaliGman]

As usual on one of these "what do I use" threads, I will recommend training, as have other forum members. The majority of citizens will use empty hand skills much more frequently than any weapon. This is because you can justify restraining or taking down an individual in many cases when you could not justify pulling and/or using a lethal weapon. I believe in skills in empty hand, stick, and knife at a minimum (and I think skill in the use of firearms is a very good idea as well).

Florida's concealed carry laws will allow the carry of a concealed handgun, knife, blackjack, stun gun, baton, etc. This makes it one of the best concealed carry laws in the country. In many states, only the handgun is covered by a concealed carry permit. Without a concealed carry permit, the concealed carry of an ASP baton or other such device is illegal in many jurisdictions (they are defined as an illegal concealed club). If you don't carry the baton concealed, then you will get some strange looks and possible law enforcement attention.

As Michael said, a baton can be your friend. I would recommend a 21" ASP Airweight (aluminum). The aluminum model is not as durable as a steel model, but it is fast, much easier to carry (it doesn't make a pocket sag like the steel models and the lighter weight is appreciated after carrying your gear all day, every day). I would get a steel model to practice striking things with and the aluminum one to carry (both of my 21" models are still going strong after years of use). I would add a good, small flashlight (I am partial to Surefire, due to their demonstrated toughness through years of my personal use, and the abuse of federal testing protocols prior to becoming "issue" equipment to many federal agencies). The flashlight can be used as a palm stick and blinding device, and can help you find your keys when you drop them in a dark parking lot late at night :p .

All of that said, if I was choosing between the two knives you mentioned, I would choose the Chinook. Without quite a bit of training and practice in the reverse, edge out grip, the Civilian cannot thrust. You can hold a Chinook in the hammer grip, which gives you longer range and, in most people, more dexterous movement, than any of the reverse grips and you can cut and thrust. I prefer my knives to work in both the cut and the thrust, as, during a real confrontation, you should take what is available--never turn down an opportunity for a cut just because thrusting is your preferred "style" and vice versa. Sometimes one shot is all you get, and, if you can't or won't take that shot, a lot of your friends end up wearing their Sunday best and gathered around your coffin.

Lastly, I hate to sound like a "gear fiend," but carrying a baton, flashlight, and/or spare knife is a sound policy. As Clint Smith is so fond of repeating, in defensive equipment, two is one. Stuff happens, and I have, on more than one occasion, seen a "backup" device save someone's bacon. What I have recommended you use does not have to be picked up all at once. Besides, you don't have to follow my advice anyway :D --it is only a recommendation. However, as I tell my students repeatedly, when you are in a real life-threatening situation, you will not regret one hour spent in good training or one dollar spent on good equipment.

Take care and train hard.

[Rex G]

Welcome to the forum! :) The first defensive Spyderco I bouht was a Civilian, and while I have "outgrown" the Civi, and want a knife capable of thrusts, I do still carry a Civi regularly, while in police uniform, as its slimness makes it so easy to carry and conceal in addition to my other blades.

[markg]

Chinook...

I also give a shout out to the Endura/Delica. A defensive folder is carried in places where the risk of loss, theft, or confiscation is high. A less expensive, easily replaced model makes sense. Both models, however are not a "compromise" in terms of performance. Keep in mind, if you use that knife (and I don't mean even cut someone) the odds of you having that knife taken from you by LEO is high, and good luck seeing it again. If you are independently wealthy, you might not care, however most of do.

I know lots of people who trust their lives to a Delica. I have seen personally the kits of some of the guru's in regards to edged weapons. You will find lots of Delica's. Friendly blade length, 4 finger handle. It will get the job done.

But of the two you have mentioned, I would go with the Chinook.

[kuru]

Thanks for all of the great info. I'm sure you've seen countless versions of this thread so I appreciate it. What little training I've had consists of 5 yrs of Shaolin Kempo Karate (stopped about 10 yrs ago so I don't really count that) and I've been studying Kung Fu for just over a year now. Cool to see a Sifu here :) . I basically know enough to understand that having some extra help like a knife (or a baton - hadn't thought of that!) would be a good idea just in case. So I have some training on defending myself, just not specifically doing so while using a knife.

Chinhook definitely got more votes but there were recommendations for the Civilian if I don't have or want to get training. Is that because anyone can hack/slash?

I do have some reservations about its size and how others (LEO/courts) might perceive it. If I do decide to go with an Endura/Delica, are there any considerations between those two other than the size difference? Also, would you suggest getting the Wave feature or would plenty of practice drawing the knife make that not really needed?

So much to learn, thanks again,
Kuru

[markg]

Between the Delica and Endura? Well... The difference really is only size.

The wave does have a few consideration. First off, the wave does work, but never trust it. I have a few waved Spyderco's and boatload of Emerson's and all work, but I do get an occasional misfire. Some also don't like that the wave might open the knife, when you preferred to simply take it out of the pocket closed. Once you get used to a waved knife, you can figure out how to keep this from happening, however.

Also consider that in some places, LEO might frown upon such a knife. Now, living in FL, I doubt that would be an issue.

Myself, all things being equal, I would get the waved model.

One of the nice things about the Delica/Endura is that you can get trainers for them.

Even if you get a Chinook, I would get a Delica... Why? There are times when you will want to carry in blade sensitive environments, and the smaller, friendlier Delica will be the difference between carrying and not carrying. Also, the Chinook is a big knife, it is heavy, and a good amount of it sticks out of the pocket when carried. Sometimes, the smaller Delica would be a better choice. I would get both, myself.