Lil' Temp 3 & Short Thick Blades

[Wartstein]

I’m also have been contemplating the lil temp as of late. I had the g10 version for awhile and find myself missing it. What I appreciated about it was that I did not have to “think” much when I used it. I generally prefer long thin blades and usually carry the police 4. With that knife and others like it, I need to be more conscious about how I use it especially with regard to the tip. I’m and electrician and am constantly cutting near or against hard metal surfaces or in tight spaces, and the lil temp gave me confidence with its thick blade stock and stout tip that I wouldn’t have any issues while cutting. ...

This is exactly what i meant in my post above yours:

For me: If thick stock in the first place in a small folder, give it also a stouter tip.

I think many potential "super hard use" folder tasks (where there is a lot of twisting and torquing and light prying for example) actually lend themselves to shorter blades (while long blades rather lend themselves to slicing tasks).

If at all one ever came to a point where they really needed that that thick, sturdy stock: Defínitely in most cases a strong tip would also be needed. The Lil Temp. seems to do that pretty well, while one reason why I never could really warm up to the Para 3 exactly is that combo of fat stock, but rather fragile tip (admittedly my Para 3 (LW) was in SE, which makes the tip even thinnner due to the chisel grind).

[Wartstein]

..
On mine the blade won't drop shut without loosening the pivot too far. That makes it a two handed closer.
...

No offense, but honest question: Why "a two handed closer"?!

Why not just use one of the other (to me actually more convenient and more secure anyway) comp.lock closing methods that do not require "drop shuttiness" - ?

(Like, just two options of several:
- Press the locktab with the index finger and guide the blade with the thumb in the opening hole;
- Or (much like with a backlock) press the locktab with the thumb and guide the blade with index finger in the opening hole)

[Wartstein]

... Leaf shapes also make a very good geometry for self defense, as well as a general purpose tool with the belly to slice with. The design works great for what it’s intended for

I found that a long, straight cutting edge (like the Stretch offers) actually slices better or at least with more power, while a very curved (leaf shaped) edge tends to "glance off" material more.

When it comes to CUTTING in self defence from all Michel Janich says in his great wharncliff vid, a very curved edge is inferior to a straight edge (the extreme being completely straight = wharnie)

See the vid below starting at around 06:45 (I meant to post just the link, but the vid just keeps getting actually embedded here)

I have no idea of sd with knives, but generally this matches what I found with my comparably of course limited experience too in general cutting.

[Wartstein]

...
Note: all thoughts here pertain to SE blades, as I mostly carry SE and do not own a PE LT3. That being said, the LT3LW is one of my favorite folders. While the blade stock is obviously quite thick, the blade is also tall enough that (at least in SE) it's a far more impressive slicer than you'd intuitively think based on the specs alone.

And the combination of blade thickness (and in turn handle thickness) and "tallness" confers a lot of ergonomic benefits in use.



I'm a big fan of the Delica 4, which provides similar edge length in a much smaller overall footprint. .....

Doesn´t the Lil Temp. actually offer at least about ten percent more edge than a Delica (perhaps practically even more, due to the pronounced curve in the edge)?
Which would make it more like a Manix in that regard?

And yes, as said: I absolutely can believe that it must have great ergos, since the handle looks a lot like the Enuff 1 handle and could be of similar thickness too!

I just wonder how much the open back and especially the comp.lock cutout take away from that good ergos.
Quite some folks have pointed out that when really bearing down on a handle, the comp.lock cutout often makes for a hotspot.

[Tristan_david2001]

... Leaf shapes also make a very good geometry for self defense, as well as a general purpose tool with the belly to slice with. The design works great for what it’s intended for

I found that a long, straight cutting edge (like the Stretch offers) actually slices better or at least with more power, while a very curved (leaf shaped) edge tends to "glance off" material more.

When it comes to CUTTING in self defence from all Michel Janich says in his great wharncliff vid, a very curved edge is inferior to a straight edge (the extreme being completely straight = wharnie)

See the vid below starting at around 06:45 (I meant to post just the link, but the vid just keeps getting actually embedded here)

I have no idea of sd with knives, but generally this matches what I found with my comparably of course limited experience too in general cutting.

I’m aware about wharncliffes wart. A Straight cutting edge is undoubtedly effective especially in slash cut. I believe I noted that. That doesn’t mean spear points like the temperance arent also self defense shapes. In fact they are popular self defense blade shapes.. they are also a good choice because they’re the most versatile blade shape as a general use knife as well, with belly that likes to slice, rather than straight “cut”

[Guts]

Well if anyone was on the fence about one, I saw that the VG10 FRN version is on sale today for $115 from River's Edge Cutlery.

[Wartstein]

... Leaf shapes also make a very good geometry for self defense, as well as a general purpose tool with the belly to slice with. The design works great for what it’s intended for

I found that a long, straight cutting edge (like the Stretch offers) actually slices better or at least with more power, while a very curved (leaf shaped) edge tends to "glance off" material more.

When it comes to CUTTING in self defence from all Michel Janich says in his great wharncliff vid, a very curved edge is inferior to a straight edge (the extreme being completely straight = wharnie)

See the vid below starting at around 06:45 (I meant to post just the link, but the vid just keeps getting actually embedded here)

I have no idea of sd with knives, but generally this matches what I found with my comparably of course limited experience too in general cutting.

I’m aware about wharncliffes wart. A Straight cutting edge is undoubtedly effective especially in slash cut. I believe I noted that. That doesn’t mean spear points like the temperance arent also self defense shapes. In fact they are popular self defense blade shapes.. they are also a good choice because they’re the most versatile blade shape as a general use knife as well, with belly that likes to slice, rather than straight “cut”

I thought so anyway, my apologies if I did not read your post thoroughly enough!

I was only referring to your (quote) " Leaf shapes also make a very good geometry for self defense.." and thought it could be interesting for folks who don´t know about Michaels finding to link that vid.
I found it really interesting that he also originally thought a good belly would be the most powerful slicer / slasher in sd, but then trough testing found the opposite.

But I totally understand your differentation along the lines "slice with a belly vs straight cut with a straight edge".

I personally came to like a long, straight edge section with then a pronounced short belly towards the tip (= Stretch) over a true Leafshape, so in that regard the Lil Temp. would not be perfect for me.
Still tempting, as said!
The whole concept makes a lot of sense to me and is a well rounded package regarding the things said already: Thick stock, but in its potential cons (cutting geometry) mitigated by the tallness of the whole blade; stouter tip (important to me in that case); one, good grip behind the
blade (so no choil that could in such a small knife shorten the space on the actual handle too much); Pinky hook that actually does not take away space on the handle (like it does on models like PM2, Para 3, Manix...) but makes sense, since the hand is not already locked in by a finger in a forward choil.

[Drubieg]

I’m also have been contemplating the lil temp as of late. I had the g10 version for awhile and find myself missing it. What I appreciated about it was that I did not have to “think” much when I used it. I generally prefer long thin blades and usually carry the police 4. With that knife and others like it, I need to be more conscious about how I use it especially with regard to the tip. I’m and electrician and am constantly cutting near or against hard metal surfaces or in tight spaces, and the lil temp gave me confidence with its thick blade stock and stout tip that I wouldn’t have any issues while cutting. ...

This is exactly what i meant in my post above yours:

For me: If thick stock in the first place in a small folder, give it also a stouter tip.

I think many potential "super hard use" folder tasks (where there is a lot of twisting and torquing and light prying for example) actually lend themselves to shorter blades (while long blades rather lend themselves to slicing tasks).

If at all one ever came to a point where they really needed that that thick, sturdy stock: Defínitely in most cases a strong tip would also be needed. The Lil Temp. seems to do that pretty well, while one reason why I never could really warm up to the Para 3 exactly is that combo of fat stock, but rather fragile tip (admittedly my Para 3 (LW) was in SE, which makes the tip even thinnner due to the chisel grind).

Your intuitions are definitely in line with the reality of my experience with the knife. I was realizing that my whole collection right now is long thin slicey spydercos cus that’s what I really enjoy. But recently Ive found myself needing/wanting something with the abilities you talk about. I thought about the shaman and the manix xl and the lil temp 3. The manix xl is actually pretty thin stock and the shaman requires choking up on the choil to really bare down on something. Choils aren’t the most comfortable when doing that… so I bought a lil temp k390 this morning for its handle forward design philosophy. Should be the winner I’m seeking

[cabfrank]

Many above have touched on the positives of this knife. There is also an excellent review of it here on the forum, by zuludelta. It is titled a comprehensive review, and it is. You should read it. It may push you over the edge. It certainly helped convince me. I will say that the thickness, weight and hand filling handle are all usually the opposite of what I want in my Spyderco. But, having one, I would probably say it is the best knife I own. It is designed and executed flawlessly. I highly recommend it. Mine is SE of course.

[ZrowsN1s]

Follow-up question: Is a thick blade particularly desirable for SD? The Yojimbos are all thick at 3.7mm. Yet I notice the Canis is a normal 3mm, and the Karahawk a thin 2.5mm. Janich makes the Jandelica, and it's only 2.5mm. So it seems that 'thick blades' are not necessarily correlated with SD designs?

Martial arts, self defense, there are a lot of different schools of thought. But my biggest complaint about most of Spyderco's SD line up is thin geometry in particular near the tip. I actually can't think of another company that does this. The trade off being slightly better slicing and poking, but at the cost of fragility. It kills me too, because Spyderco has the hands down best Locks for self defense. The CBBL and Compression lock.

Someone asked Ernie Emerson once why he made his knives saber grind with 154cm and a heat treat on the softer side. His response was (to paraphrase) , this is a fighting knife and a field knife that will see hard use, I make them this way because they are tough. In fighting a dull knife, is still a knife, a broken knife is not.

From what I've experienced with my own collection of knives. You can have a thick spine, a thick tip, and not lose much in slicing, or penetration, if other things like blade shape and blade angle (relative to the handle) are correct for the design.

I would love to see a P'kal with a much thicker stock that went all the way to the tip. Like the Superhawk blade. And in a steel more geared for toughness than edge retention. For an SD knife priority should be tough, stainless, edge retention.

My opinion anways.

[twinboysdad]

I hope they bring the original lil temperance leaf back for a sprint made golden, Colorado. really one of the best knives in the company’s history. A little bit more MBC focused than the current 3rd gen..
-pointier and more distal tapered leaf
-old school hardware, rounded pivot pin, one of the coolest clips
-unique handle feature that tails up the thumb ramp giving ur thumb a wide resting spot. stronger hand locking ergos(for me)
-my favorite color green, g10, milled out in a unique and interesting way for added grip and indexing.
Sals the greatest knife designer of our time. Indisputable!

You and me both. OG Lil Temp was the best except for the pocket clip.

[JSumm]

Put me in the camp of this looks like a great work knife. I know this model was designed for a purpose, but I prefer shorter blades with relatively thick tips for construction related work. Comfy in hand or so it appears to really bear down on.

I have often looked at this model to compete with my two current favorites for house remodeling which are the Manix 2 and the Para 3. The Para 3 actually has a pretty stout tip compared to a lot of its counterparts.

[riclaw]

On mine the blade won't drop shut without loosening the pivot too far. That makes it a two handed closer.

I have great hopes for the Bodacious.

Maybe one of these methods will work for you?

I'm right handed. On my WolfSpyder (which will not drop shut ever), I operate the compression lock with my middle finger, and push the blade down with my index finger, then close it the rest of the way with my thumb. All one handed. It took me a while to figure out how to do this. I can't closed this particular knife with just my left hand.

On other "not drop shut" compression lock knives, I can operate the compression lock with my thumb and use my index finger tip in the hole to partially close the blade. I rotate the blade halfway with my index finger tip, then rotate the handle 90 degrees in my hand and close it the rest of the way with my thumb. This is the same way I close lots of Spyderco back locks.

No offense, but honest question: Why "a two handed closer"?!

Why not just use one of the other (to me actually more convenient and more secure anyway) comp.lock closing methods that do not require "drop shuttiness" - ?

(Like, just two options of several:
- Press the locktab with the index finger and guide the blade with the thumb in the opening hole;
- Or (much like with a backlock) press the locktab with the thumb and guide the blade with index finger in the opening hole)

Hi, guys. Thanks for your suggestions. I'll try them next time I have the LT3 out. The big answer is that this knife's purpose and my actual uses don't align. I really only need something to slice packing tape every now and then. Maybe a banana if I'm feeling health conscious. If I could pocket the LT3 and open/close it as easily as other compression lock knives, then I wouldn't mind the extra girth and weight. As it is, the Para3 has been my daily carry of late.

[Bolster]

Put me in the camp of this looks like a great work knife. I know this model was designed for a purpose, but I prefer shorter blades with relatively thick tips for construction related work. Comfy in hand or so it appears to really bear down on.

I have often looked at this model to compete with my two current favorites for house remodeling which are the Manix 2 and the Para 3. The Para 3 actually has a pretty stout tip compared to a lot of its counterparts.

Hmm, I'd almost decided to pass, and then you make this point. Like you, I do a lot of house remodeling. Generally I find a straighter edge with a lower tip more useful than a full-belly knife, but ... you make a solid argument here for the importance of tip strength. This might be a great work knife.

Also valid that shorter blades work well for this kind of work. I tried to put a Stretch to use when rebuilding a house and it just did not work for me. Too much blade; the tip was too high and too far "out there" to be controlled precisely (by me). My favorite work knives are the Manix (as you said) and a 3" Caly. A Sage is also a good work knife, but the tip is higher, there's more belly, so it takes third place after Manix and Caly. But I think all of the above have 3mm thick blades.

Now I have cognitive dissonance, thankyouverymuch.

[Wartstein]

I have often looked at this model to compete with my two current favorites for house remodeling which are the Manix 2 and the Para 3. The Para 3 actually has a pretty stout tip compared to a lot of its counterparts.

This is a surprising statement to me Jeff, but of course it has weight to it due to your real life experience in general and as you share here specifically in house remodeling!

When I had my Para 3 LW (gave the model a try for a month or so) I found the tip to look and feel really fragile in relation (!) to the for me superthick bladestock (I am used to Delica and Chap blade stock dimensions in such small knives).
Admittedly I had the SE though (chisel grind = finer tip).

Perhaps I should clarify: I am talking about the very last bit of the tip which imo tends to snap easier when a blade has a very acute/pointy angle right there compared to a more obtuse one, like many leaf shapes or the "drop" towards the tip in the Endura family offer. (Goes without saying that of course spine thickness in the tip area, type of steel, heat treatment, grind... come into play too).

Anyway: To me personally a thick blade just feels and looks more "harmonic" and well rounded if it also has a "broader" tip with an more obtuse angle when looking at the blade sideways, just like the Lil Temperance offers.

[JSumm]

I have often looked at this model to compete with my two current favorites for house remodeling which are the Manix 2 and the Para 3. The Para 3 actually has a pretty stout tip compared to a lot of its counterparts.

This is a surprising statement to me Jeff, but of course it has weight to it due to your real life experience in general and as you share here specifically in house remodeling!

When I had my Para 3 LW (gave the model a try for a month or so) I found the tip to look and feel really fragile in relation (!) to the for me superthick bladestock (I am used to Delica and Chap blade stock dimensions in such small knives).
Admittedly I had the SE though (chisel grind = finer tip).

Perhaps I should clarify: I am talking about the very last bit of the tip which imo tends to snap easier when a blade has a very acute/pointy angle right there compared to a more obtuse one, like many leaf shapes or the "drop" towards the tip in the Endura family offer. (Goes without saying that of course spine thickness in the tip area, type of steel, heat treatment, grind... come into play too).

Anyway: To me personally a thick blade just feels and looks more "harmonic" and well rounded if it also has a "broader" tip with an more obtuse angle when looking at the blade sideways, just like the Lil Temperance offers.

They entire Military line is a bit odd in that they have a very thick blade stock (0.145" or 3.7mm for all of them), but taper to a pretty fine point. I guess it is just a unique design feature. It is more apparent in person, but the Para 3 has a fairly stout tip compared to the others in the Military lineup and honestly to a lot of other Spyderco models.

It is hard to capture in a photo, but much easier to see in person. I was refinishing a chair and trying to remove a couple of misplaced staples. I happened to have the PM2 and Para 3 on me and a flathead screwdriver. The screwdriver tip was too thick to get under the staple. I looked at the PM2 tip and said nope. I think it may snap. Looked at the Para 3 and thought no problem. It did just fine.

Like I said, it is tough to capture a proper pic from above due to to the camera angle for me at least, but much easier to see in person.

Military/PM2/Para3


Manix 2/Sage 5/Para 3


Para 3/Delica


I know the Delica 4 has a taller tip section (edge to spine), but the Para 3 inspires much more confidence at the tip.

[Wartstein]

They entire Military line is a bit odd in that they have a very thick blade stock (0.145" or 3.7mm for all of them), but taper to a pretty fine point. I guess it is just a unique design feature. It is more apparent in person, but the Para 3 has a fairly stout tip compared to the others in the Military lineup and honestly to a lot of other Spyderco models.

It is hard to capture in a photo, but much easier to see in person. I was refinishing a chair and trying to remove a couple of misplaced staples. I happened to have the PM2 and Para 3 on me and a flathead screwdriver. The screwdriver tip was too thick to get under the staple. I looked at the PM2 tip and said nope. I think it may snap. Looked at the Para 3 and thought no problem. It did just fine.

Like I said, it is tough to capture a proper pic from above due to to the camera angle for me at least, but much easier to see in person.

Military/PM2/Para3


Manix 2/Sage 5/Para 3


Para 3/Delica


I know the Delica 4 has a taller tip section (edge to spine), but the Para 3 inspires much more confidence at the tip.

True, out of the Millie family tha Para 3 just has to have the stoutest tip (I have/had and used all three "members", though the Para 3 just for a month).

1.) Less length to taper and thus get thinner for that thick stock towards the tip
2.) Same is true for the blade shape: Same height at the heel, but the short(est) Para 3 blade makes the tip shape the relatively "bluntest" when looking at the blade fromt the side

Still: I am really not sure that the tip of the Para 3 is actually stronger than the Delicas - and again, I am really talking just about that very end of the tip, the last fraction of an mm.
(And while with the Millie and somewhat the PM2 I can live better with the fine tips (cause these longer knives is what I´d rather grab for real slicing tasks), the role of a short blade often ist "hard" work where less slicing, and more "digging, prying, torquing" is involved).

I could compare my Para 3 only to a Salt 2 and not an ffg Delica (just had an sg Delica with its superstrong tip back then), and of course the Salt 2 has a less pointy tip than the Delica (more sheepsfooty).

Here are two pics I took:

1.) Spines Para 3 and Salt 2: If you look at the very tip, the Para 3 does not look much stouter there - ?
2.) Comparison of the tip shape (unfortunately bad pic for that, actually took it rather for the comparison of the grip area): Salt 2 a lot "stouter", "more blunt" "more material" there (again, concerning the flat of the blade, not the spine!)

Anyway: I did not actually test the tip strengthes in a meaningful "scientific" way i real life and totally respect your experiences and opinion!

[cjk]

...

They entire Military line is a bit odd in that they have a very thick blade stock (0.145" or 3.7mm for all of them), but taper to a pretty fine point. I guess it is just a unique design feature. It is more apparent in person, but the Para 3 has a fairly stout tip compared to the others in the Military lineup and honestly to a lot of other Spyderco models.

It is hard to capture in a photo, but much easier to see in person. I was refinishing a chair and trying to remove a couple of misplaced staples. I happened to have the PM2 and Para 3 on me and a flathead screwdriver. The screwdriver tip was too thick to get under the staple. I looked at the PM2 tip and said nope. I think it may snap. Looked at the Para 3 and thought no problem. It did just fine.

Like I said, it is tough to capture a proper pic from above due to to the camera angle for me at least, but much easier to see in person.
....

Para 3 prothesizing follows:

The Para 3 has to be the most sturdy of the Military family.

It will really make sense if you draw a picture of three triangles on a sheet of paper.
Make the bottom of all three triangles the same width (same blade stock width).
Make one triangle 3 inches tall, one 3.5 inches tall, and one 4 inches tall.
The 3 inch tall triangle will end up with an angle at the top point (blade tip) which is largest (most obtuse) of the three triangles.
The shortest triangle will have to have the thickest tip (barring some intentional grinding to make it otherwise).

The Para 3 also has a solid stop pin like the Shaman and the CQI Military 1, which I would expect to be stronger than the hollow ones secured with screws on the M2 and PM2.
The liners of all three are the same thickness, so one might assume that the lock has approximately the same strength on all three models given that the liner has to be crushed for the lock to "fail".
However, the MBC ratings are for some number of pounds per inch of blade. If it's the "same" lock, it should be effectively "stronger" because the blade is shorter so less leverage can be exerted on the lock.

I'm sure all three models are quite strong enough.

So in summary, the Para 3 is best.

--Christian

[JSumm]

Yeah, I don't know. I would trust my Para 3 more than my FFG Delica. But I see what you are saying Gernot about the Salt version. I'll have to compare it to my Pac Salt in LC200N. Almost more of a sheepsfoot blade shape or more specifically sheepsfoot tip. Now, I should have compared it to my Salt 2 in H2. That thing is a beast.

All to say, I have always considered the LT3 to be a great looking work knife. If I didn't have a couple already filling that role, I'd probably snag one.

[BornIn1500]

I've primarily carried a G10 Lil Temp 3 for a few years now. I think deciding if the knife is for you comes down to whether or not you mostly cut thin objects or if you're routinely cutting through materials an inch or more in thickness. The LT3 isn't for thick cuts. It won't be a good apple slicer and it's not the best at cutting through long pieces of cardboard. I like the heft and knowing that I can put a lot of force behind the blade without worry because of the blade thickness. I like that it can be held comfortably in virtually any position. It's a nice compact knife (because of no choil) that still fills the hand well and is just enough blade to get the job done. The only things I wish were different is that the G10 only came in black, there's no way to make it "drop shut" (although it could be dialed in to where a firm shake makes it drop), and that the blade could be 1/4 inch longer and still fit in the handle. But I understand why they wanted to keep it under 3".

I think a comp lock Polestar (you knew this was coming) would be an even better knife since it would lengthen the blade to the Goldilocks size and make the blade thickness better for the masses. It would essentially be the PM2 for people who don't want a choil.