Gotta rethink my hunting/gutting knife…S110V FAIL!

[Crox]

I’m no fan of folders for this duty. I have used and like the ESEE AGK in 1095. This year I was gifted a Hogue Extrak in M4 and like it even better. I do carry a stretch 2 as backup but never used it.

I’m no surgeon and they busted through ribs without issue. Both are dull after one whitetail field dress.

[skeeg11]

The SpydieChef is a fabulous skinner. My Siren has been relegated more to fish cleaning.

[DavidNM]

I suspect Magnacut would probably have worked better than S110v based on your experience.

[bdblue]

I'm thinking Cruwear would be a good choice.

I have an old Manix 2 in 154CM with the heavier saber grind blade. I think its blade geometry is a bit tougher, I don't know how well the steel would do compared to Cruwear.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Am I going to run into the same problem with S90V and chipping?

I have a Shaman in S30V and am really wondering if that's the way to go here.

Yes on s90v....and s30v is hardly any "tougher" than S110V or S90V. The whole reason why s35vn happened is because people in the beginning deemed s30v too brittle and chippy. s30v was marketed in the beginning as being as "tough" as a spring steel but also having high edge retention because of the magical "cpm" process. When that was proven false you began seeing attempts to correct it, which continue to this day with s45vn and SPY27. In each case 35vn; s45vn; SPY27 you see a constant reduction of carbon and vanadium with variations in other metals. High carbide is necessarily brittle and "tough" steels have comparatively awful edge retention. That's just how it is. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well, in this case, one could certainly argue that S110V had 'comparatively awful edge-retention'. I keep saying this but I'll repeat myself yet again.... carbide volume + large number of vanadium carbides DO NOT directly equate to edge retention.

I really hope we as a collective can start to separate the term 'edge retention' from 'wear resistance'. They are two very different things and more wear resistance often means harder to repair when this stuff ^^ happens and nothing more.

[LeDe]

Am I going to run into the same problem with S90V and chipping?

I have a Shaman in S30V and am really wondering if that's the way to go here.

Yes on s90v....and s30v is hardly any "tougher" than S110V or S90V. The whole reason why s35vn happened is because people in the beginning deemed s30v too brittle and chippy. s30v was marketed in the beginning as being as "tough" as a spring steel but also having high edge retention because of the magical "cpm" process. When that was proven false you began seeing attempts to correct it, which continue to this day with s45vn and SPY27. In each case 35vn; s45vn; SPY27 you see a constant reduction of carbon and vanadium with variations in other metals. High carbide is necessarily brittle and "tough" steels have comparatively awful edge retention. That's just how it is. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well, in this case, one could certainly argue that S110V had 'comparatively awful edge-retention'. I keep saying this but I'll repeat myself yet again.... carbide volume + large number of vanadium carbides DO NOT directly equate to edge retention.

I really hope we as a collective can start to separate the term 'edge retention' from 'wear resistance'. They are two very different things and more wear resistance often means harder to repair when this stuff ^^ happens and nothing more.

Are you saying edge retention is good but wear resistance is bad as it affects ease of sharpening without improving edge retention?
If yes, what would examples of stainless steels that have decent edge retention but low wear resistance? spy 27?

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Am I going to run into the same problem with S90V and chipping?

I have a Shaman in S30V and am really wondering if that's the way to go here.

Yes on s90v....and s30v is hardly any "tougher" than S110V or S90V. The whole reason why s35vn happened is because people in the beginning deemed s30v too brittle and chippy. s30v was marketed in the beginning as being as "tough" as a spring steel but also having high edge retention because of the magical "cpm" process. When that was proven false you began seeing attempts to correct it, which continue to this day with s45vn and SPY27. In each case 35vn; s45vn; SPY27 you see a constant reduction of carbon and vanadium with variations in other metals. High carbide is necessarily brittle and "tough" steels have comparatively awful edge retention. That's just how it is. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well, in this case, one could certainly argue that S110V had 'comparatively awful edge-retention'. I keep saying this but I'll repeat myself yet again.... carbide volume + large number of vanadium carbides DO NOT directly equate to edge retention.

I really hope we as a collective can start to separate the term 'edge retention' from 'wear resistance'. They are two very different things and more wear resistance often means harder to repair when this stuff ^^ happens and nothing more.

Are you saying edge retention is good but wear resistance is bad as it affects ease of sharpening without improving edge retention?
If yes, what would examples of stainless steels that have decent edge retention but low wear resistance? spy 27?

I'm simply saying wear resistance CAN influence edge retention in a positive way but it also goes the other way depending on what you are using the knife for --- as we are seeing in this OP specific example I'd argue it's working against edge retention. Carbide volume ALWAYS works against you in grinding an edge bevel to repair and/or resharpen. This is something that is generally dismissed as simply a matter of 'buying the right stone'.

That's still not correct as even using a diamond plate repairing that S110V blade will be a much more lengthy fix than something like LC200N which would have sustained far less damage to begin with and the grinding will also prove much more expedient in general given the lack of carbide. You only want more carbides if the edge is failing by slow wear, not so here. Even then, it's not really a problem having less carbide if you have even a bit of sharpening skill.

There are some steels which are easier to grind with as Vanadium content goes up, as found in Cru-wear or other roughly 2-3% Vanadium content steels go they are said to be easier to grind compared to less Vanadium content (likely a result of grain structure being refined to a smaller scale). This is noted in industry anyways using high speed grinding wheels, whether you will see that in practice using stones is another matter and may not apply even a little bit so take that fwiw.

Going above that with steels like 4V, 10V, 15V will ultimately start working the other way as it becomes much slower and more demanding in grinding. Hence why almost no manufacturers use those steels aside from obvious masochists such as Spyderco who feign for using these classes of steel and hang their hat upon the accomplishment of doing so. This difficulty always remains on a consumer level when it comes to repairing their knives. I'd guess the OP is likely to send in for repair.

[jmj3esq]

I don't plan on sending the knife in for maintenance. I can put a new bevel on it myself. It was my doing and honestly I should have known better, but I had never really experienced working with S110V and didn't know how "chippy" it was. now I know and will be changing knives for this purpose.

I'm hoping after the factory edge is grinded away, how much better the S110V might get. I've heard the heat created by Spyderco's grinding process can effect the edge performance. I'll grind that steel out of the way and see what happens.

[LeDe]

Yes on s90v....and s30v is hardly any "tougher" than S110V or S90V. The whole reason why s35vn happened is because people in the beginning deemed s30v too brittle and chippy. s30v was marketed in the beginning as being as "tough" as a spring steel but also having high edge retention because of the magical "cpm" process. When that was proven false you began seeing attempts to correct it, which continue to this day with s45vn and SPY27. In each case 35vn; s45vn; SPY27 you see a constant reduction of carbon and vanadium with variations in other metals. High carbide is necessarily brittle and "tough" steels have comparatively awful edge retention. That's just how it is. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well, in this case, one could certainly argue that S110V had 'comparatively awful edge-retention'. I keep saying this but I'll repeat myself yet again.... carbide volume + large number of vanadium carbides DO NOT directly equate to edge retention.

I really hope we as a collective can start to separate the term 'edge retention' from 'wear resistance'. They are two very different things and more wear resistance often means harder to repair when this stuff ^^ happens and nothing more.

Are you saying edge retention is good but wear resistance is bad as it affects ease of sharpening without improving edge retention?
If yes, what would examples of stainless steels that have decent edge retention but low wear resistance? spy 27?

I'm simply saying wear resistance CAN influence edge retention in a positive way but it also goes the other way depending on what you are using the knife for --- as we are seeing in this OP specific example I'd argue it's working against edge retention. Carbide volume ALWAYS works against you in grinding an edge bevel to repair and/or resharpen. This is something that is generally dismissed as simply a matter of 'buying the right stone'.

That's still not correct as even using a diamond plate repairing that S110V blade will be a much more lengthy fix than something like LC200N which would have sustained far less damage to begin with and the grinding will also prove much more expedient in general given the lack of carbide. You only want more carbides if the edge is failing by slow wear, not so here. Even then, it's not really a problem having less carbide if you have even a bit of sharpening skill.

There are some steels which are easier to grind with as Vanadium content goes up, as found in Cru-wear or other roughly 2-3% Vanadium content steels go they are said to be easier to grind compared to less Vanadium content (likely a result of grain structure being refined to a smaller scale). This is noted in industry anyways using high speed grinding wheels, whether you will see that in practice using stones is another matter and may not apply even a little bit so take that fwiw.

Going above that with steels like 4V, 10V, 15V will ultimately start working the other way as it becomes much slower and more demanding in grinding. Hence why almost no manufacturers use those steels aside from obvious masochists such as Spyderco who feign for using these classes of steel and hang their hat upon the accomplishment of doing so. This difficulty always remains on a consumer level when it comes to repairing their knives. I'd guess the OP is likely to send in for repair.

Ok thanks a lot for the reply.

For me the next step will be Magnacut. But first, I have a few H1 and LC200n and need to practice my sharpening.

Best,

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I don't plan on sending the knife in for maintenance. I can put a new bevel on it myself. It was my doing and honestly I should have known better, but I had never really experienced working with S110V and didn't know how "chippy" it was. now I know and will be changing knives for this purpose.

I'm hoping after the factory edge is grinded away, how much better the S110V might get. I've heard the heat created by Spyderco's grinding process can effect the edge performance. I'll grind that steel out of the way and see what happens.

Fair enough, I'll bet you at least had the thought enter your mind that you could send it in to save a bit of time and trouble. I have a nice grinder and it would make short work of that but I'm curious how long it takes if you're working by hand. By the end of it you may start second guessing doing it yourself depending on what equipment you're using for grinding.

It's always a good idea to get past that last bit of steel behind the apex to get to virgin steel that should be undamaged from processing but hard to say what difference it will make until you get there. It may not make much difference because Spyderco does well to grind with coolant according to Sal. The final buff of the apex still may overheat the tiny apex.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Well, in this case, one could certainly argue that S110V had 'comparatively awful edge-retention'. I keep saying this but I'll repeat myself yet again.... carbide volume + large number of vanadium carbides DO NOT directly equate to edge retention.

I really hope we as a collective can start to separate the term 'edge retention' from 'wear resistance'. They are two very different things and more wear resistance often means harder to repair when this stuff ^^ happens and nothing more.

Are you saying edge retention is good but wear resistance is bad as it affects ease of sharpening without improving edge retention?
If yes, what would examples of stainless steels that have decent edge retention but low wear resistance? spy 27?

I'm simply saying wear resistance CAN influence edge retention in a positive way but it also goes the other way depending on what you are using the knife for --- as we are seeing in this OP specific example I'd argue it's working against edge retention. Carbide volume ALWAYS works against you in grinding an edge bevel to repair and/or resharpen. This is something that is generally dismissed as simply a matter of 'buying the right stone'.

That's still not correct as even using a diamond plate repairing that S110V blade will be a much more lengthy fix than something like LC200N which would have sustained far less damage to begin with and the grinding will also prove much more expedient in general given the lack of carbide. You only want more carbides if the edge is failing by slow wear, not so here. Even then, it's not really a problem having less carbide if you have even a bit of sharpening skill.

There are some steels which are easier to grind with as Vanadium content goes up, as found in Cru-wear or other roughly 2-3% Vanadium content steels go they are said to be easier to grind compared to less Vanadium content (likely a result of grain structure being refined to a smaller scale). This is noted in industry anyways using high speed grinding wheels, whether you will see that in practice using stones is another matter and may not apply even a little bit so take that fwiw.

Going above that with steels like 4V, 10V, 15V will ultimately start working the other way as it becomes much slower and more demanding in grinding. Hence why almost no manufacturers use those steels aside from obvious masochists such as Spyderco who feign for using these classes of steel and hang their hat upon the accomplishment of doing so. This difficulty always remains on a consumer level when it comes to repairing their knives. I'd guess the OP is likely to send in for repair.

Ok thanks a lot for the reply.

For me the next step will be Magnacut. But first, I have a few H1 and LC200n and need to practice my sharpening.

Best,

The most common thing I see in knives, guns, etc. is the idea of buying performance (hardware) as a replacement for acquiring skills and knowledge (software). Start with mastering sharpening and I believe you'll find all of this noise about the best steels slowly becomes white noise. Especially when you start getting into changing edge geometry/thickness and apex polish/toothy. Especially when you start adding up all of those changes and compounding that interest.

You can gain fair more performance changing those factors than you can by changing steels in general. Edge retention and maintenance is more of a software problem than a hardware problem, IMO. The first place everyone looks is for a hardware solution and it's expensive, ultimately leading to a black hole of the never-ending search for the 'best' steel. It fuels much of the sales for Spyderco at this point along with the FOMO bling of various colorways and other sprint run silliness.

[twinboysdad]

I use spyderco pocket knifes for skinning ,quartering, and breaking down my deer to pack out of the woods. The last 2 I used were the siren in S90, and the Ayoob SE in cruwear. Both knifes were still shaving sharp afterwards. This includes splitting the ribs.

This is how far down I take the deer before packing out.

What happened to that first SE section of your Ayoob?








Just kidding

[electro-static]

Pair any knife of your choosing with a small compact light folding saw. For me, that would be a SpydieChef.

Honestly the chef is just a great food prep and outdoor folder. LC200N has treated me well whenever I have used it outdoors.

[LeDe]

Are you saying edge retention is good but wear resistance is bad as it affects ease of sharpening without improving edge retention?
If yes, what would examples of stainless steels that have decent edge retention but low wear resistance? spy 27?

I'm simply saying wear resistance CAN influence edge retention in a positive way but it also goes the other way depending on what you are using the knife for --- as we are seeing in this OP specific example I'd argue it's working against edge retention. Carbide volume ALWAYS works against you in grinding an edge bevel to repair and/or resharpen. This is something that is generally dismissed as simply a matter of 'buying the right stone'.

That's still not correct as even using a diamond plate repairing that S110V blade will be a much more lengthy fix than something like LC200N which would have sustained far less damage to begin with and the grinding will also prove much more expedient in general given the lack of carbide. You only want more carbides if the edge is failing by slow wear, not so here. Even then, it's not really a problem having less carbide if you have even a bit of sharpening skill.

There are some steels which are easier to grind with as Vanadium content goes up, as found in Cru-wear or other roughly 2-3% Vanadium content steels go they are said to be easier to grind compared to less Vanadium content (likely a result of grain structure being refined to a smaller scale). This is noted in industry anyways using high speed grinding wheels, whether you will see that in practice using stones is another matter and may not apply even a little bit so take that fwiw.

Going above that with steels like 4V, 10V, 15V will ultimately start working the other way as it becomes much slower and more demanding in grinding. Hence why almost no manufacturers use those steels aside from obvious masochists such as Spyderco who feign for using these classes of steel and hang their hat upon the accomplishment of doing so. This difficulty always remains on a consumer level when it comes to repairing their knives. I'd guess the OP is likely to send in for repair.

Ok thanks a lot for the reply.

For me the next step will be Magnacut. But first, I have a few H1 and LC200n and need to practice my sharpening.

Best,

The most common thing I see in knives, guns, etc. is the idea of buying performance (hardware) as a replacement for acquiring skills and knowledge (software). Start with mastering sharpening and I believe you'll find all of this noise about the best steels slowly becomes white noise. Especially when you start getting into changing edge geometry/thickness and apex polish/toothy. Especially when you start adding up all of those changes and compounding that interest.

You can gain fair more performance changing those factors than you can by changing steels in general. Edge retention and maintenance is more of a software problem than a hardware problem, IMO. The first place everyone looks is for a hardware solution and it's expensive, ultimately leading to a black hole of the never-ending search for the 'best' steel. It fuels much of the sales for Spyderco at this point along with the FOMO bling of various colorways and other sprint run silliness.

This makes a lot of sense.
I have my doubt I'll reach the reprofile edge level but who knows ...
In the meantime, I have gone on a buying spree, different shapes and sizes, PEs and SEs and will make a pause and start learning more about sharpening.

This treads is quite enlightening as it shows toughness can be required, when one could easily dismiss it in a folder.
This works for me as the Salt steels tend to be tough.
On that topic , I almost regretted taking a sale price on a Native Salt Lc200n when I could have invested a bit more on the Magnacut version for diversity.
But I am sure the one I got will works wonder for me.

Best,

[twinboysdad]

Everyone disses VG10 until you need a knife for real stuff. VG 10 still rocks hard

[kriezek]

The Stretch was specifically designed as a hunting knife. If you look at its blade profile, it makes a great skinning knife.

For me, I always used 2 knives when quartering a deer. One "large" and one "small"... In this case, the Stretch would be considered the large knife. It comes standard in VG-10, or I think Bentobox still has some Stretch 1 versions in HAP40 available, or they did a few weeks ago.

The Native 5 in Magnacut should be small enough and tough enough for tight inside work. Of course, that is assuming you want to use folders. You could always choose fixed blades as well.

As for steels, I have quartered plenty of white tail, Axis deer, antelope, and a few others with D2 steel knives. Per Larrin at knifesteelnerds.com, its toughness is 3.5 compared to VG-10 at 4 and HAP40 at 4.5. S110V is only a 3.

I guess it also depends upon how you use your knife against the bone. I used a hacksaw to cut off the head/spine. I used my knife to cut the cartilage at the knees and then just twisted those off. Everything else is just cartilage and twisting unless you are completely deboning your meat.

[Deadboxhero]

No matter what the steel is, some angles can be too thin for a specific task or a users style of use.


Even with the toughest steels on the planet, an edge geometry can be too thin for abusing.

Thicker edges can come closer to being indestructible which sounds incredibly enticing, however, it's an inverse relationship and big trade off with a thinner, high performance cutting edge. Fundamentally, thicker edges do NOT perform as well with actual cutting like a laser thin edge will.

There was some brilliant testing done by Dr Larrin Thomas that shows how shocking differences in geometry can be when it comes to edge toughness


Figure 1a: 15dps Cutting edge on AEB-L at 61rc impacted, damage observed despite AEB-L having high toughness. Images from Dr Larrin, "Knife Engineering" pg 60


Figure 1b: 25dps cutting edge on same steel; AEB-L at 61rc also impacted with same energy, less damage observed. Image from Dr Larrin, "Knife Engineering" pg 60




An experienced knife user should recognize this behavior and select the geometry they need for what the task and user style is. There is no one size fits all. Only more or less compromises depending on what's being done and how.




Figure 2: Graph created from edge impact toughness data. Thicker edges are significantly more durable, one could consider edge toughness/durability doesn't start until +20dps

Again, the most important take away here is geometry must be ruled out first before making conclusions about steel.



The factory edge is a very thin, large diameter wheel hollow ground edge at 17dps. This has advantages with having better cutting ability and sharpen ability out of box when the edge is thinner. Spyderco could make the edges thicker out of box but that would be collective punishment to folks that don't use their knives for abusive, non cutting tasks.

Consider that It's easier for an end user to make a thin edge thicker than a thicker edge thinner.



Figure 3: Spyderco Factory Edge, 3D imaging by Karl Haldon, large diameter hollow wheel profile of edge can be observed.


Figure 4: Spyderco Factory Edge top down view, hollow profile can be further observed.



Figure 5: spyderco edge angle measures 17 dps, this is consistent on the PM2 line and other models. Measurement is crucial to understand difference in performance.



When most folks resharpen the factory edge they unintentionally reprofile the bevel to a thicker convex profile. This occurrence is natural when sharpening freehand on a stone even at the same 17 dps angle.

We often see statements about edges having less chipping after sharpening however we don't have any empirical evidence of the edges true geometry with a laser goinometer to see if thicker geometry is at play and hiding near the apex.

So, be weary of folks claiming "steel X can do abusive tasks at 6 dps with no damage" when it's more probable the edge is just convexed to +20dps at the tip of the apex, even though they are holding a "6 dps" by hand.


Image source: "knife mods 2012" note this edge is not a true 6 dps bevel, it convexs to significantly thicker angles at the apex.

In conclusion, with the edge toughness changing so radically based on the edge angle and profile it's absolutely crucial to rule out geometry first before freaking out about needing the world's toughest steel which also will have high trade offs in cutting edge retention.

[jmj3esq]

Thanks for the good info, Shawn. It makes perfect sense. I should have never chose a Manix 2 with its very thin factory edge.

I dabbled in freehand sharpening and love convex edges, but I could just never form that bur well enough to get the sharpness I wanted. I moved to a KME sharpener a few months back and am getting nice, screaming sharp, edges. The problem is, I've lost the ability to convex the edge like I could freehand sharpening. Im not able to get those beefy edges that I like. I think Im just going to stick to a thick stock edge like that found on the Shaman. I have several of them already. Let me know if what else I need to keep in mind. Thanks.

[Deadboxhero]

Thanks for the good info, Shawn. It makes perfect sense. I should have never chose a Manix 2 with its very thin factory edge.

I dabbled in freehand sharpening and love convex edges, but I could just never form that bur well enough to get the sharpness I wanted. I moved to a KME sharpener a few months back and am getting nice, screaming sharp, edges. The problem is, I've lost the ability to convex the edge like I could freehand sharpening. Im not able to get those beefy edges that I like. I think Im just going to stick to a thick stock edge like that found on the Shaman. I have several of them already. Let me know if what else I need to keep in mind. Thanks.

Just increase the edge angle setting on the KME.


You'll still get your flat crisp edge just start at ~22dps and see how that works for you and adjust accordingly through use.

Personallize it, make it yours.

The factory edge is a place holder, it's not a constraint we are forced to adhere too.

[kennbr34]

Thanks for the good info, Shawn. It makes perfect sense. I should have never chose a Manix 2 with its very thin factory edge.

I dabbled in freehand sharpening and love convex edges, but I could just never form that bur well enough to get the sharpness I wanted. I moved to a KME sharpener a few months back and am getting nice, screaming sharp, edges. The problem is, I've lost the ability to convex the edge like I could freehand sharpening. Im not able to get those beefy edges that I like. I think Im just going to stick to a thick stock edge like that found on the Shaman. I have several of them already. Let me know if what else I need to keep in mind. Thanks.

Just increase the edge angle setting on the KME.


You'll still get your flat crisp edge just start at ~22dps and see how that works for you and adjust accordingly through use.

Personallize it, make it yours.

The factory edge is a place holder, it's not a constraint we are forced to adhere too.

Do you think that it makes more sense to use an obtuse edge on a steel with high wear-resistance? Kind of how people suggest that you should take advantage of tough steels by putting an acute edge on there. To me it would makes sense that while the more obtuse an edge, the more wear-resistance goes down, but the high carbide content would mitigate that and allow a more obtuse angle for increased edge stability. On the other hand, it seems that a more obtuse angle invariably means a thicker apex and perhaps less cutting ability? As with all things, there's probably a sweet-spot, but it makes me wonder if that sweet spot is higher for carbide rich steels, and lower for low-carbide steels.