Community Sharpening Journal

[Deadboxhero]

Observations on a factory edge of 1.4116 steel.

The hardness is 55 hrc and very large carbides are observed. 1.4116 Krupp often gets compared to AEB-L. However, they are not the same and the small differences in chemistry make a huge difference when it comes to the available working hardness; AEB-L is known for higher hardness and finer carbides than 1.4116.


Micrograph of edge: a 13um chromium carbide has been shattered at the edge during deburring at the factory, It has been broken into small pieces which will fall out with use.

[Bemo]

That's a great pic Shawn.

[TkoK83Spy]

Finally got around to finishing up this knife I started over a month ago. Wandering About and Vivi inspired me to to go below my typical comfort zone of 15dps.

I started out free hand on the DMT stones, then moved to my custom Sharpmaker at 12.5dps to clean it up and finish the edge on the CBN rods. Super thin and sharp, I may not even kiss the edge with the brown rods. I'm back in the warehouse at work for a bit, can't wait to try this laser out this week!

[northvanbamboo]

Since my wife is away this weekend, I've decided to touch up my favourite users on Venev stones. I particularly enjoyed the feedback of F150, F240 and F400.

Thanks to Vivis teachings Manix2lw REX45 got 15dps F240 finish. Its the 3rd time I'm rocking low grit finish and absolutely love it.

My K390 Endela recently dropped on the concrete floor and needed some mild tip repair, I couldn't resist and polished it to F400, also at 15dps.

San Mai kitchen knife was first polished to F1200, but I didn't like the lack of bite and brought it down to F800 which yielded really nice 20dps edge.

Thanks for the advice on lapping Venev F100 with 90grit SiC powder in the off topic part of the forum, it really brought it back to life!

Lastly I rolled the edge on Sage5lw in S30V, progression used on the blade: F150, F240, F400, F800, F1200 and finally white part of Spyderco's double stuff to make it nice and shiny at 15dps. Its plenty sharp, but my least favourite EDC steel, since its loosing the front end sharpness very fast, soon to be replaced by newly dropped Maxamet steel I think

Overall great evening listening to the records and crisping up the edges. Sharpening journal topic on this forum gives me so much pleasure. Can't wait to dull my knives agan and learn new stuff on here. Thanks for keeping this discussion so engaging and interesting, I've learned so much!

[PaloArt]

Finally got around to finishing up this knife I started over a month ago. Wandering About and Vivi inspired me to to go below my typical comfort zone of 15dps.

I started out free hand on the DMT stones, then moved to my custom Sharpmaker at 12.5dps to clean it up and finish the edge on the CBN rods. Super thin and sharp, I may not even kiss the edge with the brown rods. I'm back in the warehouse at work for a bit, can't wait to try this laser out this week!

WOW, where did you get that custom SM base please?

[vivi]

looks 3d printed. I'd be interested in making one for myself.

good looking edges guys, let us know how they do long term!

I'm pocketing a C95 today that is mostly factory edge. Took the apex up to the ultrafine sharpmaker stones. Figured I'd be doing some wood carving around the camp site and wanted to optimize it for that as much as I could without a full reprofile.

Think it's time to take the kid gloves off with my sprint and give it a real edge....

[vivi]

tried something a little different.

diamond rods in the 15 degree slot, tilting the knife to try to match the 10-12dps bevel.

once the apex was reset, a few feather light strokes at 15 degrees.

then went straight to the ultrafine rods at 15 degrees for 2 passes per side.

I was lazy and didnt want to get out my bench stones when my sharpmaker was already out on my desk. Worked 16 hours yesterday and I'm doing 17 today, gotta pick my battles.





Turned out sharp enough. Didn't match the bevel well on the back side near the choil but it'll do for now.

[vivi]

Took 3 SRK's out to a local camp ground to compare how they all cut.

An SRK that I stripped and reprofiled.



An SRKC that I stripped, thinned out the primary grind so the saber grind line is 1/4" higher, and thinned out the edge bevel.



A brown SRKC that I stripped and tried to do a convex blend with my sander so that it'd be thinner behind the edge than the reground SRKC I've been using. After my convex attempt I then applied a V grind by hand at around 8dps, then gave it a ~12dps microbevel that I took up to 5,000 grit.



I didn't do a very pretty job with my sander, but thankfully it cuts very well. It cuts with less effort than the black handled ones I've been using, which was my goal.









https://streamlala.com/A2qBZ/



Even though I normally go for green when I have that option, something about this handle color with a stripped blade does it for me. I've got a full sized in the same color coming in the mail.

Paid $25 for the brown one and I like it better than knives I've paid $100-175 for. They take a tremendous edge.

[vivi]

Was going through some of my old cold steel stuff I haven't used in ages. Found a voyager xl I managed to accidentally chop a rock with while camping years ago. Sharpened some of the chip out and made the edge bevel thinner, more even and sharper. Here's some pictures of it fresh off the sander. Refined the apex on my sharpmaker until it caught hairs above the skin.



I did one pass on each side then stopped to remove the thumb studs after realizing they'd get in the way. Should have taken a true "before" image.




No idea what I'll be using this one for either way. Never really found much use for the extra length it offers over a Police except as a folding impromptu machete, which is a pretty rare use haha.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I'll take needing to flatten for faster cutting, and constant exposure to fresh abrasive. All stones will need be flattened or dressed eventually.

The sintered Spyderco stones don't dish, but they're slow, and can burnish edges. I just use them to microbevel and burr removal

I don't think something like a DMT can be flattened. It's a plated stone.

My oldest diamond stones are pushing 20 years at this point. They aren't as aggressive as the day I bought them but I can still put a good edge on a knife with them. Works for me.

I've never had an issue with my ceramics simply burnishing edges instead of cutting steel, but I also clean them any time steel particle build up starts becoming visible. They work much worse when they're loaded with steel.

Unless you are routinely conditioning your Spyderco ceramics then they will inevitably begin burnishing at some point whether you consciously realize it or not. The advantage you claim about them wearing so slow is really because they simply don't release worn grit and the grit itself is very resistant to fracturing and creating new sharp edges on the surface.

Have you ever actually conditioned your Spydie ceramic with loose abrasive? If you have not then you would really need to do this to actually see the difference because the wear happens so slowly over time it's easy to miss it happening entirely. I use mine often in the kitchen and will recondition mine every 2-3 weeks depending on how much I use it for my Nakiri.

You won't necessarily see the visual effect of burnishing but it will only be observed through careful collecting of data in a way to measure edge retention. If you are OK with having to 'touch up' your edge more than it's really not a problem, per se, but it will have the effect of progressively degrading edge retention over time and a much higher polished edge bevel.

I clean my Spydie ceramics with a chunk of pencil eraser every couple days so my conditioning the stone is not me simply mistaking a surface that is loaded with steel residue (which will also cause burnishing). The ideal way to know when to recondition is to have an unused side of the stone left as sintered for reference to touch/feel the difference as it wears.

[vivi]

I've bought new sharpmaker rods twice over two decades, so I've gotten to compare my most worn set to a fresh set. The old ones still cut but they leave a more polished finish than the fresh stones do.

Either way keeping them clean is definitely essential to getting good performance out of them.

I get really good results out of all my Spyderco ceramics and I've never done anything to them other than sharpen with them then clean them. No resurfacing. I've compared them to all sorts of other stones like Shapton kuromakus, suehiro cerax, lansky ceramic rods etc. and I get better results with my worn spyderco ceramics than I do stones like the Cerax that release fresh grit.

So on one hand I can soak my Cerax 1k stone for 15 minutes then make a mess with slurries etc. all to get an edge that barely shaves, or grab my Spyderco fine bench stone and use it dry and get a hair popping sharp edge in a minute or two.

Not sure why. I invested a decent bit in different stones to try out but I always go back to the Spydercos when it comes to ceramics.

Got a few new DMT stones in the mail I found on close out. Fine and coarse. Think the coarse might become my new go to stone for edging utility folders.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I've bought new sharpmaker rods twice over two decades, so I've gotten to compare my most worn set to a fresh set. The old ones still cut but they leave a more polished finish than the fresh stones do.

Either way keeping them clean is definitely essential to getting good performance out of them.

I get really good results out of all my Spyderco ceramics and I've never done anything to them other than sharpen with them then clean them. No resurfacing. I've compared them to all sorts of other stones like Shapton kuromakus, suehiro cerax, lansky ceramic rods etc. and I get better results with my worn spyderco ceramics than I do stones like the Cerax that release fresh grit.

So on one hand I can soak my Cerax 1k stone for 15 minutes then make a mess with slurries etc. all to get an edge that barely shaves, or grab my Spyderco fine bench stone and use it dry and get a hair popping sharp edge in a minute or two.

Not sure why. I invested a decent bit in different stones to try out but I always go back to the Spydercos when it comes to ceramics.

Got a few new DMT stones in the mail I found on close out. Fine and coarse. Think the coarse might become my new go to stone for edging utility folders.

The fact that they polish at a higher finish is in itself evidence that the abrasive is not sharp and therefore not cutting as deep, shallower scratches equal finer finish. The reason that you find it easier to get a sharp edge is because the loose abrasive from the Cerax, etc., will only dull the apex as it cuts during edge leading strokes. This is why many will advocate using edge trailing strokes for finishing, which is still not ideal for bringing out high sharpness.

The waterstones are never the right choice for bringing out high sharpness but they excel at fully resetting dull edge bevels quickly with a minimum of burr formation and burnishing since the grit is always fresh and sharp. More cutting = less burnishing. The mud also minimizes the burr so it leaves the edge in the perfect state to micro-bevel for high sharpness. This same trait can make it where very muddy waterstones seem incapable of actually doing any 'sharpening' itself.

This is where the Spyderco Ceramics and DMT/Atoma/etc. type plates excel. Setting the micro-bevel or light touch ups where the edge is still sharp. The key is that the edge should be mostly sharp before switching to these finishing stones, as in only needing 1-4 passes per side to get it to high sharpness. Anything more than that and you're likely just pushing the steel in the apex around = burnishing.

[vivi]

That's mostly how I use ceramics anyways.

Like that cold steel folder above, I took it straight from the belt sander where I gave it a (eyeballing here) 13dps 120 grit bevel, then did a microbevel on the sharpmaker at 20dps starting at medium then going to fine.

Interesting comments about the cerax stone. Being 1,000 grit I expected to easily shave off of it since I have no issues getting shaving sharp edges from 200-400 grit diamond plates. I guess I need to adjust my expectations.

I do get good results from my shapton 5k kuromaku stone. That's become my go to stone for knives I run polished edges on, like bushcrafters that carve a lot of wood, and chef knives.

I have not yet needed to condition the shapton 5k stone. When it's time would you recommend using one of my diamond plates, or something else? I'm very inexperienced when it cokes to flsttening and conditioning stones that wear faster because I've been using diamond plates and Spyderco ceramics basicslly since I started sharpening seriously.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

The Cerax will allow you to get shaving sharp if you understand what you need to do in achieving this end point. You simply must flush the stone and allow it to dry slightly as you do not want any of that mud left once you've gotten the edge thin enough to be at the verge of being 'sharp'. A few edge leading passes alternating sides generally will get you there fast.

You're also likely overdoing it on soaking the Cerax as that stone likely needs only about 5 minutes to be ready to use. It's possible that it's releasing much more grit than it should be if that is the case. Mine does not shed excessively, it's a nice balance of muddiness and it leaves a hazy, shot-peened looking finish on very hard steels. It can still generate a burr easily.

If you like harder stones and know how to deal with burrs well then you may find you like the Shapton Kuromaku 1000 better than the Cerax as they are supposed to be rather hard stones. It's usually better to have a stone that does at least a bit of burr minimization as this damage extends into the apex behind the burr as you flex it back and forth.

Flattening the Cerax can be done with diamond plates but I'd expect it to be harder on the plates than simple clay based waterstones or even the magnesia-bond Shapton's. Nano Hone sells a special flattening plate I was told was designed for these types of stones specifically because they present such a challenge to traditional lapping plates.

I have Nano Hone's NL-10 and have used it to flatten my Spyderco ceramics (that's the other thing, they don't come very flat which can cause problems when moving between stones as you mention going from med to fine, etc). These are a pain to flatten with other common methods and I'm not sure about the best way aside from NL-10 type lapping plates.

There's also a distinction between what I'd use to flatten the stones compared to condition the surface. Ideally you have the stone perfectly flat before conditioning to make sure you hit the whole surface. I use a very cheap and soft bond Naniwa Green Lobster stone with light pressure for about 10 sec in order to condition the Spyderco Medium stone. It works well.

The 5k Kuromaku would be something that probably needs more flattening than lapping as it likely releases a bit of abrasive. I'd focus on just flattening it and see how it cuts after that. I don't have that stone yet so I cannot say how it behaves. The cheapest way to flatten/condition most anything is coarse loose abrasive on float glass which you can buy from Lee Valley.

The key thing to understand is that the loose grit will quickly be pulverized into finer grit ranges and while it will still cut it will continue to surface the stone you're working finer and finer. Which can be OK, you can actually surface one side of the Spyderco stone more coarse than the other to give multiple effective working grits. More than 10 sec. really degrades fast.

I'd had a hard time coughing up the multiple hundreds of dollars for the NL-10 but it really becomes one of those things that adds more value the more you actually use it sort of like an electric car. Much pricier up front but over time because very inexpensive as you save on fuel expenses. It does however, leave some stones needing a bit of conditioning after flattening.

[vivi]

I definitely prefer the harder shapton to the softer cerax at the moment, but that could be due to user error on my part.

when it comes to the cerax I heard soak it until there's no more bubbles, and leave any slurry on the stone that forms as it's supposed to aid in the sharpening process. But the edges I've gotten off of it using that method with edge leading strokes would barely shave, while my sharpmaker diamond rods for example give me a clean shaving edge easily.

What grit naniwa lobster stone are you using on your spyderco ceramics? I looked them up and they're pretty cheap so I wouldn't mind ordering a few to try out to see if they make a difference.

I'm really happy with my combination of diamond stones for stuff under 600 grit and ceramics for stuff above that, but I enjoy trying out different sharpening methods out of curiosity.

[vivi]

18" straight edge machete. One of the easiest things to sharpen on a belt sander and I still manage to get the show side a little wonky, haha.






short video of the edge - https://streamlala.com/9ETgw/

Gonna be a beast once I refine the edge a bit. Think I'll try taking it up to my medium spyderco bench stone, which is a higher polish than my typical 400 grit finish.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I definitely prefer the harder shapton to the softer cerax at the moment, but that could be due to user error on my part.

when it comes to the cerax I heard soak it until there's no more bubbles, and leave any slurry on the stone that forms as it's supposed to aid in the sharpening process. But the edges I've gotten off of it using that method with edge leading strokes would barely shave, while my sharpmaker diamond rods for example give me a clean shaving edge easily.

What grit naniwa lobster stone are you using on your spyderco ceramics? I looked them up and they're pretty cheap so I wouldn't mind ordering a few to try out to see if they make a difference.

I'm really happy with my combination of diamond stones for stuff under 600 grit and ceramics for stuff above that, but I enjoy trying out different sharpening methods out of curiosity.

This is the stone I am using, I bought it here but I don't know of any other sources at the moment. I suspect this may be new, old stock given the price point. At any rate, it's about the softest stone I have and it's a good fit for conditioning very hard stones being that it's basically just loose grit rolling around between the two surfaces within a second of using it.

https://knifewear.com/products/naniwa-g ... 05x50x25mm

The manual that came with my Cerax said 5-10 minutes soak for all of their stones, coarser stones tend to absorb faster so likely only needs 5 minutes. The bubble method assumes that the stone has to be completely saturated to be useful, I don't subscribe to this theory. You can use the stones dry but it does change the behavior obviously. Damp surface, not wet.

Softer stones are generally less of a problem than stones that are too hard, as people cannot resurface hard stones easily. Soft stones can be often conditioned on very low-tech surfaces, sidewalks, etc. The harder the surface that harder to flatten and condition. There is no best stone unless you can determine what exactly you need it to do specifically.

I think for my uses Spyderco stones or diamond plates are mostly interchangable if you are only working on micro-bevels with very low contact pressure. The main difference is for larger/heavier cutting tools it becomes hard to keep contact pressures low enough to not damage the bonding of the diamond plates so I prefer the ceramics with those types of tools.

That said, the narrow size of the 8x2" Spyderco stones generally is not ideal there either and 8x3" version would be better, though more money, with the benefit that they come perfectly flat and you can simply recondition it easily if too fine surface finish. I only use the Spyderco Medium currently as I find it's generally fine enough for my uses anyways.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

18" straight edge machete. One of the easiest things to sharpen on a belt sander and I still manage to get the show side a little wonky, haha.






short video of the edge - https://streamlala.com/9ETgw/

Gonna be a beast once I refine the edge a bit. Think I'll try taking it up to my medium spyderco bench stone, which is a higher polish than my typical 400 grit finish.

I did a very similar machete recently for my neighbor across the street and I can say with certainty that they present a challenge even for a guided system like my Tormek T-8. The blade is flexible enough to matter and they don't come particularly well ground from the factory so it was a good lesson for me to not let my OCD kick in or I'd have simply remade the whole blade and given it a full convex grind and made it a stud. They'll never use it for anything but rough stuff so I didn't bother doing anything other than leave it wonky and sharp like a bandsaw to hack through whatever.

[Scandi Grind]

I have not yet needed to condition the shapton 5k stone. When it's time would you recommend using one of my diamond plates, or something else? I'm very inexperienced when it cokes to flsttening and conditioning stones that wear faster because I've been using diamond plates and Spyderco ceramics basicslly since I started sharpening seriously.

I know a lot of people who sharpen Japanese chef knives with waterstones and flatten any stone up to #2000 grit (Japanese scale) with a 140 grit (ANSI) diamond plate. It leaves grooves in the stone, but it still cuts fine even with the grooves. I can't say whether it would work better with a smoother finished surface, but I have heard people say that waterstones seem to cut more aggressively with a coarser surface finish. For grits above #2000, most people seem to like using a 320 grit instead of 140.

I actually use 600 grit Wet or Dry sandpaper on a glass plate to flatten my stones, a #1000 grit Cerax soaker, and a #2000 grit Naniwa splash and go. Once again, I'm not sure if there are better methods, it was just cheap and easy and seems to work alright for me, plus I admit the grooves left in my stones bugged me. I draw a grid across the stone then scrub my stone until the grid is gone and call it good.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I have not yet needed to condition the shapton 5k stone. When it's time would you recommend using one of my diamond plates, or something else? I'm very inexperienced when it cokes to flsttening and conditioning stones that wear faster because I've been using diamond plates and Spyderco ceramics basicslly since I started sharpening seriously.

I know a lot of people who sharpen Japanese chef knives with waterstones and flatten any stone up to #2000 grit (Japanese scale) with a 140 grit (ANSI) diamond plate. It leaves grooves in the stone, but it still cuts fine even with the grooves. I can't say whether it would work better with a smoother finished surface, but I have heard people say that waterstones seem to cut more aggressively with a coarser surface finish. For grits above #2000, most people seem to like using a 320 grit instead of 140.

I actually use 600 grit Wet or Dry sandpaper on a glass plate to flatten my stones, a #1000 grit Cerax soaker, and a #2000 grit Naniwa splash and go. Once again, I'm not sure if there are better methods, it was just cheap and easy and seems to work alright for me, plus I admit the grooves left in my stones bugged me. I draw a grid across the stone then scrub my stone until the grid is gone and call it good.

The grooves aren't a dramatic issue but it can subtly change the behavior of the stone. I'd say it MAY cause the stone to release abrasive more readily in theory because the grooves cut in the surface will have the effect of increasing contact pressures on the stone for any given force applied as the surface area is reduced. This will also have the effect of cutting more coarse to some degree than the stone's grit rating would suggest.

Many people use an Atoma 400 for this purpose as the 140 will leave scratches on the 1K or 2K stones. The only thing about using these types of plates is you must readily flush all debris from the stone you're flattening or it ends up wearing the bonding of the plate. You also have to make sure that you don't use them on stones which have either very hard bonds or very coarse grains relative to the grit rating of the stone. You wouldn't want to use an Atoma 400 on a 200 grit waterstone.