Spyderco and Cold Steel "collaboration" of sorts.

[Studey]

What knife, in 1992, had the thumb plate? I remember it being introduced on either the AK47 or Rajah...it came about around the time Demko came on board. The plate is different than a thumb disk.

So, here's a video, from Cold Steel, demonstrating waving open a knife using the thumb plate. http://youtu.be/uxveart-shs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Far from useless. I've done it with my 5.5" Talwar. Not that hard...the wave's pretty simple. Search on YouTube for "cold steel thumb plate" and you'll find others.

But to say that they don't advertise it to do this? For crying out loud, it's mentioned in the product description for nearly every knife they make that has a thumb plate, except, apparently, the BT2.

Presenting your opinion as fact is fine, we all do it, but you need to get your information straight. You're making a variety of statements in this thread that are just plain false.

I like Cold Steel, and have several of their knives, but I'm bowing out of this discussion, as I don't want to continue discussing their knives in Spyderco's forum.

[Zenith]

For those interested here is the patent of the Thumb Plate by Andrew Demko citing Emerson's patent as well with the issuing dates of the patent.

https://www.google.co.za/patents/US7036 ... CCkQ6AEwAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Studey]

For those interested here is the patent of the Thumb Plate by Andrew Demko citing Emerson's patent as well with the issuing dates of the patent.

https://www.google.co.za/patents/US7036 ... CCkQ6AEwAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you, Zenith, that's very interesting to read.

Confirms what Halfneck was saying.

[gbelleh]

I agree that the thumb plate (at least on the xl Espada) is far from useless as an opener. That big huge blade waves open easily and reliably every time. But I can't say I've ever actually carried that thing.

[Comedie]

BTW, what type of lube do you use on your Fishing Reels?

I know an old-time, salt-water Fisherman that swears by Pro Shot Zero Friction lube on his Reels and I have used it on my knives and Semi-Auto Pistols and it makes the action buttery smooth.

Any input on Pro Shot Zero Friction, or does Mobil 1 work just as well?

No answer, so I'll take a stab at it. For non-spool bearings, I use Yamaha outboard grease. On spool bearings, I use TSI-301 or TSI-321. If you have 1-way roller bearings instead of dogs, I use Corrosion-X on those.
Look up "Alan Tani" in Google to find his reel website. Pretty well known for his reel maintenance work.

[Mygrainman]

Here's my biggest CS folder, along with my smallest Spyderco folder... :D

You win! Can't believe I don't have a bug yet

[PHP87]

BTW, just wanted to update this thread.

Received my Byrd Hawkbill. Nice little knife for $20.00, but the blade was pretty dull and fit and finish were slightly sub-par.
Can't complain though 'cause I only paid $20.00 for it.

I wish Spyderco put thumb jimping on the Civi as well as the raised oval grips on the handle, but OTOH, I realize the Civi was meant to be secreted in "sensitive" areas for undercover work, but still, it would be a nice touch to add those features to the Civi's sold to the gen public.

Nice thing about the Byrd is that you can carry it in your hand without it being noticed. All in all, a good knife for the price.

Here's a pic of my biggest knife, a CS Vaquero Grande circa 2007 in VG-1 steel with my smallest knife, the Byrd Hawkbill:

The Byrd and "Big Brother"

And my next knife purchase, the CS BT II

[PHP87]

Can you imagine a Spyderco with a Triad lock? May be the closest thing to a fixed blade in a pocket folder! :D

Nope, that lock is heavy, slow, clumsy. I'll take a Spyderco mid-lock any day.

Sorry, but the Tri-Ad is anything but heavy, slow, and clumsy.

BTW, check the weight of the BT II with the Tri-Ad compared to the Civi.

The Tri-Ad is anything but "heavy" along with slow and clumsy.

It takes no more effort to close a Tri-Ad than the mid-lock or any other lock back for that matter.

Seems that some are rationalizing that the less stout mid-lock as "better" than the Tri-Ad because in your opinion, it's easier to close.
It's not and even if it was, I would rather have a lock that was harder to close and so would my fingers.

Some people seem to be blinded by brand loyalty. Nothing wrong with brand loyalty, but when brand loyalty compromises common sense and logic, then it's a different story.

Now, my old Vaquero Grande takes a bit of effort to close, but it's not a Tri-Ad. nor is the pivot adjustable, but plenty of Pro Shot Zero Friction lube makes closing it much easier and opening that much mass of steel is effortless. So much so, that it nearly defies gravity.

Every Tri-Ad lock CS knife I have owned has been no harder or no easier to close than a Spyderco or any other popular lock back folder on the market. It's not like we're talking a Buck 110 Knife here.

Unless you are talking a new, out of the box Tri-Ad with no break-in and no lube compared to a well broken-in Spyderco mid-lock, then you have an argument, but not a legit one. And the weight of the BT II - 4.8 oz.
Weight of the Civi? - 4.75 oz., so the argument about the Tri-ad being "heavy" on two identical knives is BS

I would even wager that the BT II has dual drilled liners as opposed to a single liner on the Civi and the fact that the blade on the BT II is thicker at 3.5mm compared to 3mm for the Civi.

With the Tri-Ad lock, the deeper (And far safer) finger grooves, thumb plate, likely thumb jimping and likely dual drilled liners, the BT II weighs in at .05 oz heavier despite having the more robust lock, better design IMO and a list price of $110.00 from most secondary knife sellers.

Compare that to the $150+ price tag of the Civi that doesn't have the Tri-ad, no jimping, a single drilled liner and no finger grooves to speak of, and the design looks very dated along with sub-standard ergonomics. And overpriced. The only thing the Civi has going for it over the BT II is the design of the serrations IMO and the originality and historical significance which is why mine will stay in my collection, even after acquiring a BT II

The only difference is that the BT II will now be my EDC SD knife.

Give props to CS for taking a great knife and making it even better at about 2/3rds of the cost, not to mention, using better steel, better ergonomics, etc...

And give props to Spyderco for developing arguably the best SD folder ever made up until now.

Not trying to start a pissing contest, but clearly, the BT II is a huge upgrade over the Civi. Better steel, ergonomics, thumb plate, price, Tri-Ad lock, etc...

Disagree? Then tell me why the Civi is better knife?

Again, not trying to upset any Spdyerco fans, but the Civi is nearly 25 years old in design. CS brought it up to date, improved it and came in at a little over $100 on the secondary market.

I'll retire my Civi, thankful that I never had a need to use it and hope that I won't ever need to use the BT II but I will carry it every where I go.

[paladin]

Chinook with a Tri-Ad would be a natch, IMHO

[sal]

Interesting discussion.

FYI, the first "hook" for opening a folder on clothing was first patented in 1891 on a two bladed folder. I was filing "hooks" into folders in the 50's, probably before both Lynn and Ernie were born. I was approached at the SHOT show mid 80's with an inventor that was trying to patent a "hook". I told him were were marketing the "hole" as an opening method which we felt was more versatile and we don't think it's a good idea to try to market a "hook until the "hole" was established. We added the accessory and pay Ernie a royalty to serve both our customers and the industry.

We have plans to upgrade the Civilian in the future, just have too much going on right now to do so.

sal

[PHP87]

Thanks for your input, Sal.

If you haven't already done so, are you at liberty to discuss the collaboration between CS and Spyderco on the BT II?

[sal]

Hi PHP,

Welcome to our forum. I see that you are a Cold Steel fan. That's ok. I'm sure there are many that visit here that also visit Cold steel forums. We're knife afi's and enjoy many companies. Lynn makes a good knife and he appreciates quality and performance, which is always a good thing.

Personally I prefer my designs as I'm sure Lynn prefers his. We have our design philosophies and Lynn has his. We have our marketing philosophies and Lynn has his. They are different.

As far as a collaboration, I don't know that I'd call it that. Lynn wanted to make a variation and I told him is was ok. We are always flattered when a competitor likes one of our designs enough to choose to make a variation. He also has enough style to make his appear different, which is far cry better than the classless Chinese counterfeits.

You must remember that this is a Spyderco forum. Promoting Cold Steel here is a bit out of character for our forum. There is little that you could say to me that would convince me to want one of Lynn's designs over my own, they are different for sure with emphasis on different features and aspects. Hard to argue that one is "better".

Lynn is beginning to experiment with more exotic steels than in the past, also a good thing. This is something we've been doing for decades and it is something on which we really focus.

Do you know where Lynn is making his knives?

sal

[Ankerson]

Can you imagine a Spyderco with a Triad lock? May be the closest thing to a fixed blade in a pocket folder! :D

Nope, that lock is heavy, slow, clumsy. I'll take a Spyderco mid-lock any day.

Sorry, but the Tri-Ad is anything but heavy, slow, and clumsy.

BTW, check the weight of the BT II with the Tri-Ad compared to the Civi.

The Tri-Ad is anything but "heavy" along with slow and clumsy.

It takes no more effort to close a Tri-Ad than the mid-lock or any other lock back for that matter.

Seems that some are rationalizing that the less stout mid-lock as "better" than the Tri-Ad because in your opinion, it's easier to close.
It's not and even if it was, I would rather have a lock that was harder to close and so would my fingers.

Some people seem to be blinded by brand loyalty. Nothing wrong with brand loyalty, but when brand loyalty compromises common sense and logic, then it's a different story.

Now, my old Vaquero Grande takes a bit of effort to close, but it's not a Tri-Ad. nor is the pivot adjustable, but plenty of Pro Shot Zero Friction lube makes closing it much easier and opening that much mass of steel is effortless. So much so, that it nearly defies gravity.

Every Tri-Ad lock CS knife I have owned has been no harder or no easier to close than a Spyderco or any other popular lock back folder on the market. It's not like we're talking a Buck 110 Knife here.

Unless you are talking a new, out of the box Tri-Ad with no break-in and no lube compared to a well broken-in Spyderco mid-lock, then you have an argument, but not a legit one. And the weight of the BT II - 4.8 oz.
Weight of the Civi? - 4.75 oz., so the argument about the Tri-ad being "heavy" on two identical knives is BS

I would even wager that the BT II has dual drilled liners as opposed to a single liner on the Civi and the fact that the blade on the BT II is thicker at 3.5mm compared to 3mm for the Civi.

With the Tri-Ad lock, the deeper (And far safer) finger grooves, thumb plate, likely thumb jimping and likely dual drilled liners, the BT II weighs in at .05 oz heavier despite having the more robust lock, better design IMO and a list price of $110.00 from most secondary knife sellers.

Compare that to the $150+ price tag of the Civi that doesn't have the Tri-ad, no jimping, a single drilled liner and no finger grooves to speak of, and the design looks very dated along with sub-standard ergonomics. And overpriced. The only thing the Civi has going for it over the BT II is the design of the serrations IMO and the originality and historical significance which is why mine will stay in my collection, even after acquiring a BT II

The only difference is that the BT II will now be my EDC SD knife.

Give props to CS for taking a great knife and making it even better at about 2/3rds of the cost, not to mention, using better steel, better ergonomics, etc...

And give props to Spyderco for developing arguably the best SD folder ever made up until now.

Not trying to start a pissing contest, but clearly, the BT II is a huge upgrade over the Civi. Better steel, ergonomics, thumb plate, price, Tri-Ad lock, etc...

Disagree? Then tell me why the Civi is better knife?

Again, not trying to upset any Spdyerco fans, but the Civi is nearly 25 years old in design. CS brought it up to date, improved it and came in at a little over $100 on the secondary market.

I'll retire my Civi, thankful that I never had a need to use it and hope that I won't ever need to use the BT II but I will carry it every where I go.

I have been around for awhile and have owned and used a lot of knives over the past 4 decades.

Cold Steel produces good knives just like most of the better companies do, I have owned a fair amount of them myself over the years and still have some of them. Actually have one that I will be testing soon, but that's not for here as it would be bad form to do so IMHO.

That said this is the Spyderco forum and I would tend to guess that most of us here know about Cold Steel and either have owned them in the past and or still do along with other knives form a variety of Companies. We try and not promote other companies products out of respect for Spyderco and this is the Spyderco Company forum.

Marketing is what it is and Companies all have their opinions on what they need to do so we see different spins on things over time.

[PHP87]

Yes, this is a Spyderco forum but the thread is about an apparent collaboration between CS and Spyderco.

And for the record, I own several brands of knives. By recent count, 5 CS models and 3 Spyderco models, as well as several others so this isn't a pro CS debate as I own and love both, among other brands.

Not "promoting" CS, just stating that the BT II is an upgrade over the Civi IMO and gave examples as to why. If anyone cares to refute my reasoning, feel free.

The match that lit the fuse was the statement that the Tri-Ad is heavy, slow, clumsy, etc...which sounds like blind loyalty (As well as ignorance) to one brand which I think we would all agree is not a good thing and that an open mind and differing opinions is a better thing.

As mentioned, I'm grateful that Spyderco designed, to date, the best SD folder in the world that has ridden in my pocket for years, but the design is dated and is in need of improvements, such as deeper finger grooves, thumb jimping, ambidextrous clip, etc...which is something that CS addressed and did so at a lower cost and created, IMO, a better knife at a better price.

If anyone wants to debate the original point of the thread I am happy to do so and have made several points that haven't been refuted.

If the thread or the post comparing the two is inappropriate for a Spyderco forum, then perhaps it should be deleted if it's ruffling some feathers or otherwise not appropriate for this forum, although the two knives will be compared and debated. If not here, then on other forums.

The bottom line is that competition is a good thing, especially for the end-user.

And AFAIK, CS assembles their knives in China, just like Spyderco does with some of their models.
China makes some fine cutlery and would do well with their own brands and not making copies.
Not sure if the reference was meant to disparage CS, but the Hawkbill I recently bought had some fit and finish issues, so perhaps those issues should be addressed before insinuating that the Chinese don't make quality knives when some Spyderco knives made in China have fit/finish issues.

But again, It's a $20 knife so it's no big deal and doesn't affect functionality although I've never seen these issues on a CS knife at any price point.

And if I've offended anyone, sorry, but I speak my mind and as mentioned, competition benefits all of us.

[Ankerson]

Cold Steel has knives made in Taiwan and Japan for the most part currently, at least for the main models anyway. They do farm out to other countries for the pretty vast inventory of things they sell.

Taiwan isn't China.

As far as the Lock goes the earlier ones were clunky and stiff, I know because I tested a few of the 1st generation Tri-Ad Production folders and they are still in my cabinet as I type this. However the later generation is better as they have smoothed out the action so it's a definite improvement over the older ones. They are not as smooth as Andrew Demko's Customs though, I know because I had 2 of them at one time.

Not an SD/Tactical type of guy here at all and never have been, however I have both owned and or tested a large variety of knives over the years. That type of marketing does sell a lot of knives as is evident of the numbers being sold.

Quality, tolerances and Fit and Finish are in direct relationship to price points in general a long with materials, this is how things work as nothing is free.

You do get what you pay for in the end.

[Trevitrace]

Hi PHP,

Welcome to our forum. I see that you are a Cold Steel fan. That's ok. I'm sure there are many that visit here that also visit Cold steel forums. We're knife afi's and enjoy many companies. Lynn makes a good knife and he appreciates quality and performance, which is always a good thing.

Personally I prefer my designs as I'm sure Lynn prefers his. We have our design philosophies and Lynn has his. We have our marketing philosophies and Lynn has his. They are different.

As far as a collaboration, I don't know that I'd call it that. Lynn wanted to make a variation and I told him is was ok. We are always flattered when a competitor likes one of our designs enough to choose to make a variation. He also has enough style to make his appear different, which is far cry better than the classless Chinese counterfeits.

You must remember that this is a Spyderco forum. Promoting Cold Steel here is a bit out of character for our forum. There is little that you could say to me that would convince me to want one of Lynn's designs over my own, they are different for sure with emphasis on different features and aspects. Hard to argue that one is "better".

Lynn is beginning to experiment with more exotic steels than in the past, also a good thing. This is something we've been doing for decades and it is something on which we really focus.

Do you know where Lynn is making his knives?

sal

Across a few forums and many more threads than that, your comportment is, among other things, something that will always bring me back to Spyderco.

Thank you, Mr. Glesser. I hope to one day shake your hand.

Adam

[Surfingringo]

If anyone wants to debate the original point of the thread I am happy to do so and have made several points that haven't been refuted.

I'm going to pass on the offer. Seems silly to debate someone about a knife they have never owned, carried or used. You don't own that Cold Steel knife you are carrying on about do you? I would agree with others that this seems an odd place to come and beat the drum for a competitors knife...especially when you have seen nothing more than the spec sheet.

This is one of the most open minded company forums I have ever seen. I am pretty sure if your thread could shift its tone to "how the Spyderco Civilian could be made better" then it would be well received. In fact, this is the perfect place to talk about something like that. Check your motivation and adapt your comportment and you will be met with fine results. As an added bonus, you'll find this trick will work well in places other than the Spyderco forum. hehe :)

[PHP87]

First of all, I didn't start the thread regarding the apparent collaboration between CS and Spyderco.

Second, one doesn't have to own either or both knives to make a valid comparison.

I've outlined the improvements of the CS BT II like the Tri-Ad lock, thumb plate vs. bird's eye opening, deeper, more ergonomic finger grooves (Not to mention safer) Ambidextrous clip, better steel, Dual Liners, Thumb Jimping and the lower price.

These are all FACTS that can be seen or read in the spec sheet.

I don't have to drive or own a 7th Gen Corvette to know it's a better car than the latest iteration of the Camaro, even though the Corvette costs more.

Perhaps you won't debate which knife is better because you can't.

How could the Civi be made better? It has been. It's called the CS Black Talon II and CS will sell them faster than they can make them most likely.

Unfortunately, Spyderco sat on the same design for nearly 25 years and made few improvements (VG-10 over ATS-55 and a few other basic enhancements) but the knife was basically the same for 25 years.

No surprise that another knife maker took the design and brought it up to date, improved it and sells it at about 2/3rds the price for a better knife.

Spyderco rested on their laurels, plain and simple. Let's see if they come up with a new, improved Civi that can compete with the BT II

And if I've offended anyone, sorry, but I speak my mind and as mentioned, competition benefits all of us.

[Surfingringo]

Heres a rooster fish I caught yesterday. :)

[Studey]

That's a nice fish!

Sal's class is impressive as always, and I think it's interesting that the president of a company is being more civil in discussing a competitor's company than a forum member is in discussing Sal's company, on Sal's forum. :rolleyes: