FL vigilante helpful intentions? Stupid? Hard to tell?

[jackknifeh]

Here's a Yahoo story about a guy in Wal Mart who sees another guy in the parking lot with a concealed gun enter the store and what he does. This looks to me like a situation that he looks like a stupid person BUT if the guy had been up to no good, doing something bad the "guy" would be considered the hero. You are an idiot or a hero depending on the outcome, not the intent. The lesson is to be careful when you think you are doing a good deed. This guy probably acted too quickly. Especially, as the article said, FL is a "concealed carry" state. I may be the only guy who doesn't carry a pistol. :)

http://news.yahoo.com/man-assaulted-by- ... 43501.html" target="_blank

Jack

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Well, that is an interesting one, jack, thanks. I can see both sides. There have been real situations in which a citizen saved peoples' lives by intervening against a truly violent and dangerous individual, and then there are situations where vigilante actions turn bad or hurt someone who is not guilty. I believe people should be willing to help others from attacks and such. I would feel safer in a place where concealed carry is Constitutionally allowed and protected, rather than where it is not.

One thing that upsets me is this: There have been situations where a person was rightfully defending themselves and others, and the judge over the case sides with the violent offender, instead of the citizen defending themselves or others. You and I should have the security knowledge that if, God forbid, we do have to resort to physical force in order to protect ourselves and our property, and the lives and property of others, from an aggressor, we will not have to fear being prosecuted ourselves.

Like those cases where a store owner was defending his person and property, and he ended up being sued by the crook!

[Pinetreebbs]

Concealed carry, should be just that, concealed and not visible to others.

Just like you shouldn't be flashing a wad of cash in a public place, you should not be exposing the fact that you are carrying.

This is one of the problems with open carry. There are some folks that want to sling a long arm and walk into certain restaurants, it may be your right, but honestly, if I see that, I'm thinking threat. If it was a common practice, maybe not so much.

[jackknifeh]

The main problem with this whole who is right or wrong, legal or illegal thing is that the judge is going by the written law, or should be. However, the written law was written by men and women and no matter how accurate or inclusive they mean the written law to be they can't include every situation. Even worse than that we can't read minds so we can read the mind of the people involved. Believe it or not, even in the USA, people will lie when in court. IMO it boils down to the imperfection of the human race. Not our fault, it's just how we are, imperfect. There's no getting around that.

It's hard enough for the cops, judges, jury's, etc. to know what to decide in these situations and they have (supposedly) all the information. But then we read these little blurps on the Yahoo news on our monitors sometimes people (me) form opinions that we actually think are accurate and voice these opinions. I try to remember I don't know the whole story nor do I know if the reporter, editor, etc. even want to report it without bias or do they include their "little slant" to the story based on their opinions on "concealed carry" or whatever the issue may be. It's a screwy situation which has ABSOLUTELY NO way to become perfected. Just my opinion "which I'm voicing". :)

[jackknifeh]

Concealed carry, should be just that, concealed and not visible to others.

Just like you shouldn't be flashing a wad of cash in a public place, you should not be exposing the fact that you are carrying.

This is one of the problems with open carry. There are some folks that want to sling a long arm and walk into certain restaurants, it may be your right, but honestly, if I see that, I'm thinking threat. If it was a common practice, maybe not so much.

I agree to a great degree. If it were more common, like it was around the year 1870, you wouldn't think anything of anyone in a store or even church maybe with a pistol, rifle, knife, etc. These days things are different. IMO (just my opinion) there is VERY little need to carry a gun where I live. Actually the ONLY reason to carry a gun is for self-defense. There is no hunting allowed in the Wal Mart parking lot where I live. :) Knives OTOH, have a daily use as a tool. Guns used to be like that. You never knew when you may see a rabbit that might mean your dinner menu. Then again, there isn't any rabbit in the meat dept. in my Wal Mart either. :D This is a very serious issue but I tend to make lite of it because it's not the guns. It's not the knives. It's the people. True, if you eliminate all the guns you don't risk you or your family/friends being victims or unlucky bystanders of gun shot. But YOU CAN'T eliminate them all because of the original problem I mentioned. The human race. The human nature needs to change. Until that happens there is no complete answer. Since there is no way to change the human nature we'll just need to keep doing the best we can and maybe in many many many years (centuries?) there won't be any war or crime. Maybe so.

Jack

[OldHoosier62]

I'm sorry, Foster is a moron. His self styled vigilante attack on a man doing nothing but walking into the store is more..."look at me, I'm a hero" at best...or... a bit of closeted racism at worst (Black man has a gun, gotta be a criminal). The CCW individual WAS carrying concealed, Foster saw him remove the gun from his vehicle and holster it UNDER his jacket and decided to play hero for whatever reason.

If he was concerned then he should have brought it to the attention of either store security or called 911.....both are an over reach since Florida has had legal CCW since 1987. But he chose to attack an individual with no provocation. He is very lucky that he is still breathing as that choke hold attack is lethal force. And nobody mentions the fact that there were 3 children in the arms length vicinity of the attack, also poor judgement.

Last I heard Foster was being held for mental health eval....that seems to be the correct call.

I'm waiting for the rest of the info to come out, was it fear, stupidity, white knight syndrome or was it agenda driven.

[The Deacon]

Concealed carry, should be just that, concealed and not visible to others.

Just like you shouldn't be flashing a wad of cash in a public place, you should not be exposing the fact that you are carrying.

This is one of the problems with open carry. There are some folks that want to sling a long arm and walk into certain restaurants, it may be your right, but honestly, if I see that, I'm thinking threat. If it was a common practice, maybe not so much.

Exactly. Stuffing a gun under your coat in a parking lot before walking into a store is irresponsible because it has the potential for being misinterpreted. When that happens, playing the race card is equally irresponsible.

[OldHoosier62]

I'm sorry Deacon...your opinion is walking a fine line as to "thought crime", it may be a threat...but it may not, therefore I'll let my feelings on a situation override my common sense AND the law. The County Sheriff in the situation even called the act vigilantism and uncalled for due to Florida's CCW laws. As I said above, if you "feel" uncomfortable then let the security know OR call the law...that stupid mistake could have cost the life of Foster or one of the kids quite easily and the fault would lay with the aggressor not the CCW.

I know that you eschew clipped knives, but what if this had been a tackle and beat down of a knife carrier due only to a clip visible in the pocket? Same principle..."I was scared they might hurt someone"???

And I didn't bring the racial element into it...several Florida LEO'S did. I just happened to be privvy to the conversation.

[The Deacon]

I'm sorry Deacon...your opinion is walking a fine line as to "thought crime", it may be a threat...but it may not, therefore I'll let my feelings on a situation override my common sense AND the law. The County Sheriff in the situation even called the act vigilantism and uncalled for due to Florida's CCW laws. As I said above, if you "feel" uncomfortable then let the security know OR call the law...that stupid mistake could have cost the life of Foster or one of the kids quite easily and the fault would lay with the aggressor not the CCW.

I know that you eschew clipped knives, but what if this had been a tackle and beat down of a knife carrier due only to a clip visible in the pocket? Same principle..."I was scared they might hurt someone"???

And I didn't bring the racial element into it...several Florida LEO'S did. I just happened to be privvy to the conversation.

Not at all. Two wrongs don't make a right. I fully agree that, while calling the police, or alerting store security would have been reasonable under the circumstances, it was wrong of Foster to take the law into his own hands and attack Daniels.

As for "concealed", I will admit a lack of knowledge of Florida's laws, so I have no idea what the outcome would have been if Foster had called the police. I only know that having a loaded, uncased, handgun in your hand in a public parking lot, even for a moment, would violate the conditions of a CWP in at least some states.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I accused you of playing the race card. To be honest, I hadn't read your post when I wrote that. OTOH, I think we both agree it was played.

As for seeing someone with a clipped knife, a physical confrontation would be equally wrong. However, I'm not a trusting soul, so I'd tend to keep closer eye on anyone I see with a weapon if I assess them as a potential threat. And yes, at the risk of offending some, I do stereotype and profile people. Little old ladies don't rate the same level of alertness as these four would...

[shunsui]

Interesting map here of open carry states.

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbers/map-where- ... egal-1715/" target="_blank

[tvenuto]

I agree to a great degree. If it were more common, like it was around the year 1870, you wouldn't think anything of anyone in a store or even church maybe with a pistol, rifle, knife, etc. These days things are different. IMO (just my opinion) there is VERY little need to carry a gun where I live. Actually the ONLY reason to carry a gun is for self-defense. There is no hunting allowed in the Wal Mart parking lot where I live. :) Knives OTOH, have a daily use as a tool. Guns used to be like that. You never knew when you may see a rabbit that might mean your dinner menu. Then again, there isn't any rabbit in the meat dept. in my Wal Mart either. :D This is a very serious issue but I tend to make lite of it because it's not the guns. It's not the knives. It's the people. True, if you eliminate all the guns you don't risk you or your family/friends being victims or unlucky bystanders of gun shot. But YOU CAN'T eliminate them all because of the original problem I mentioned. The human race. The human nature needs to change. Until that happens there is no complete answer. Since there is no way to change the human nature we'll just need to keep doing the best we can and maybe in many many many years (centuries?) there won't be any war or crime. Maybe so.

Jack

Jack your post made me think of this quote from the book Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy:

It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.

Indeed, it is not the guns or the knives, it's us. But like you I don't see a change in our immediate future. Actually I'm probably with the Judge on this one. To me that just means all we can do is do right by our families and neighbors. It also helps to be mindful of society around us, like many have said. What may be strictly legal may not be polite or even a good idea.

[OldHoosier62]

I'm sorry Deacon...your opinion is walking a fine line as to "thought crime", it may be a threat...but it may not, therefore I'll let my feelings on a situation override my common sense AND the law. The County Sheriff in the situation even called the act vigilantism and uncalled for due to Florida's CCW laws. As I said above, if you "feel" uncomfortable then let the security know OR call the law...that stupid mistake could have cost the life of Foster or one of the kids quite easily and the fault would lay with the aggressor not the CCW.

I know that you eschew clipped knives, but what if this had been a tackle and beat down of a knife carrier due only to a clip visible in the pocket? Same principle..."I was scared they might hurt someone"???

And I didn't bring the racial element into it...several Florida LEO'S did. I just happened to be privvy to the conversation.

Not at all. Two wrongs don't make a right. I fully agree that, while calling the police, or alerting store security would have been reasonable under the circumstances, it was wrong of Foster to take the law into his own hands and attack Daniels.

As for "concealed", I will admit a lack of knowledge of Florida's laws, so I have no idea what the outcome would have been if Foster had called the police. I only know that having a loaded, uncased, handgun in your hand in a public parking lot, even for a moment, would violate the conditions of a CWP in at least some states.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I accused you of playing the race card. To be honest, I hadn't read your post when I wrote that. OTOH, I think we both agree it was played.

As for seeing someone with a clipped knife, a physical confrontation would be equally wrong. However, I'm not a trusting soul, so I'd tend to keep closer eye on anyone I see with a weapon if I assess them as a potential threat. And yes, at the risk of offending some, I do stereotype and profile people. Little old ladies don't rate the same level of alertness as these four would...

4 winners.jpg

I agree, I would be a liar if I said I didn't profile....everyone does but everyone's criteria is different. I tend to profile based on behavior (or lack thereof) mannerisms and movement, not appearance. But some, like those you posted, get everyone radar fired up.

[dewildeman]

I read the story elsewhere. Instead of taking matters on his own he should have called it in to 911 with detailed description of the "suspect" and location. At the very least advised the store personel. Tackling an armed person in public is not wise.

It reminds me of the Boy Scout leader who pushed over rock formations at a Utah national park because he was "all about safety".

[jackknifeh]

I read the story elsewhere. Instead of taking matters on his own he should have called it in to 911 with detailed description of the "suspect" and location. At the very least advised the store personel. Tackling an armed person in public is not wise.

It reminds me of the Boy Scout leader who pushed over rock formations at a Utah national park because he was "all about safety".

If there is life elsewhere in the universe (I think there is) I wonder if the "people" there are just as smart or stupid (depending on the situation) as we humans are? We are capable of such great, wonderful things as well as unbelievable stupidity. I hope I've been guilty of some great things. I know I'm guilty of some stupid things. :o

Jack

[defenestrate]

Social media ideologues of various stripes are all over this. Another reminder that this is one of the best little corners of the internet around.

The older fellow should have been more cautious. Out in the sticks, there is no one to see you check/retrieve/etc your firearm, but in the parking lot of the US's largest employer in a highly populated area (Tampa Bay), there is always the possibility that someone will see you. Depending on the state, what seems like a simple intuitive gesture technically may violate CCW procedures. In short, the weapon is concealed for multiple reasons, not overstimulating gun-averse people being a big one. It was slack on his part, but I suspect that many people have unwittingly done this. The way the laws are, technicalities can be life-altering. Be discreet when packing heat.

whatever this guy's motivation (and I am curious about his MO here), tackling a guy and putting him in a choke hold because he had a gun was a right jumpy thing to do. Maybe he's had a little too much #gunsense.

[jackknifeh]

I thought about this for a long time. Almost 40 seconds. I can see both sides to most stories but in this case I think the guy who tackled the other guy is an idiot.


Jack

[defenestrate]

There can be no doubt. Unfortunately, he's not one of a kind.

[noseoil]

The January shooting here in which Gabby Giffords was shot, & many others as well, is a good case in point on what to do and not do at an active shooting. There was a CCW permit holder who heard the shots that morning (in front of the grocery store my mother shops in). He was nearby and when he arrived on scene, he saw a man standing, holding a gun, and a bunch of blood and bodies on the sidewalk. He didn't take the shot because he wasn't sure what was happening.

It turns out he arrived just in time to see the guy standing there, who had just wrestled the weapon away from the shooter as he was trying to reload.

What would you have done in that situation?