Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

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wrdwrght
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#21

Post by wrdwrght »

Studey wrote:
The Deacon wrote:
v8r wrote:Dan,
What is your take on the push for open carry in Texas?
I for one don't know if I agree with it. I guess I'm a little on the fence. I don't have a problem with people exercising their right, but don't know if we need a bunch of "cowboys" walking around frightening people either. It's hard to win over people when they are frightened of you. I feel organizations such as OCT for example are perhaps going about it the wrong way. We need for people to understand that our Second Ammendment right is important, perhaps the most important. How are we going to defend our other rights and liberties without it? I think a lot of these organizations mean well, but when you see people walking around the capital with Ak's and Ar's at the low ready position it makes a lot of people leery, and to be honest me as well. I feel they have done nothing, but make us gun owners and CHL holders as a whole look like a bunch of nut jobs.

Anyone feel free to comment and tell me if my reasoning is flawed.
I don't think it's the least bit flawed, v8r. Even free speech has its limits, as in "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater". I think that guns and knives should be carried with some discretion, but that, just as most people understand that there's a reasonable middle ground between being required to wear a burka and full frontal nudity, there should be one between the "has to be totally hidden to the point where it doesn't even print" philosophy of many concealed carry states and walking around town with a long gun in your hands. I'd never want to intentionally advertise that I was armed, but at the same time, I dislike having to pay so much attention to absolute concealment. I think there's a world of difference between the "message" sent by someone with a holstered handgun that might occasionally expose a hint of leather or wood if they bend or reach, and that sent by someone walking around town with a gun of any kind in their hands.
Agreed. Open carry is generally a poor idea, and that's one of the reasons.
I believe each of us has a responsibility to be courteous of others (you know, the Golden Rule...).

I think Open Carry, for all its other problems, retention not least, is discourteous of others here in the US. When I carry, I carry concealed. I carry for my own protection (protecting others with a gun is very risky business), and I conceal chiefly not to worry others who are uneasy around guns for whatever reason (a good one is how often guns "resolve" prime-time TV's conflicts, whether actual and imagined).

People who sling long guns into fast-food franchises to make some specious Chicken Little point (the Second Amendment is at risk; the guv'mint is sucking us dry, and only an armed militia will put guv'mint back in its place, as if that were a purpose of the 2A) are plain discourteous. I don't like discourteous people generally. And I don't like these ones in particular. Apart from putting off the uninitiated, they simply help to vilify gun-ownership (whether guns are owned for protection or for recreation or for both) in the minds of the uninitiated (the many many who some here insist on calling "sheeple") who not only are uneasy around guns, but also have a right (you know, the First Amendment...) to be uneasy around them.

Best not to make your gun an issue until the horrific moment it is needed.
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
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JNewell
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#22

Post by JNewell »

FarmerTed wrote:People that carry knives are crazy. The only people that carried a knife in public that I know of were the terrorists that cut off the head of the british soldier.

The terrorist in Canada that gunned down a soldier and shot up parliament building was actually stopped by the Sgt at Arms when he offered him hugs and handshakes.

The terrorist in Canada that ran down two soldiers with his car clearly demonstrates that only evil terrorists have cars.

I don't think rationally, I just have feelings, and they're hurt by freedom loving people.
Too funny. We should all be forced to live in nudist colonies with nothing more dangerous than paper napkins and vegetarian burgers - for our own safety and good. ;)
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JNewell
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#23

Post by JNewell »

Open carry - YMMV and I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do, but I have never understood why anyone who travels in less than squad strength would find it attractive.
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v8r
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#24

Post by v8r »

JNewell wrote:Open carry - YMMV and I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do, but I have never understood why anyone who travels in less than squad strength would find it attractive.
Completly agree. What's next drop leg holsters and body armor? Fast roping out of a Blackhawk to pick up dinner at McDonald's?
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#25

Post by OldHoosier62 »

JNewell wrote:Open carry - YMMV and I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do, but I have never understood why anyone who travels in less than squad strength would find it attractive.
Agree 100%, the last thing I want to do is make myself an instant target by open carry. I want nobody to know unless I decide it is time to employ my firearm.
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#26

Post by DansGunBlog »

v8r wrote:Dan,
What is your take on the push for open carry in Texas?
I for one don't know if I agree with it. I guess I'm a little on the fence. I don't have a problem with people exercising their right, but don't know if we need a bunch of "cowboys" walking around frightening people either. It's hard to win over people when they are frightened of you. I feel organizations such as OCT for example are perhaps going about it the wrong way. We need for people to understand that our Second Ammendment right is important, perhaps the most important. How are we going to defend our other rights and liberties without it? I think a lot of these organizations mean well, but when you see people walking around the capital with Ak's and Ar's at the low ready position it makes a lot of people leery, and to be honest me as well. I feel they have done nothing, but make us gun owners and CHL holders as a whole look like a bunch of nut jobs. Anyone feel free to comment and tell me if my reasoning is flawed.
Goodness, and to think the most controversial thing I was planning to write today was the Spyderco Resilience review for my blog lol.

Several distinct items here, so will address them individually.


1.) Open Carry Texas
v8r wrote:Dan, What is your take on the push for open carry in Texas? I for one don't know if I agree with it. I guess I'm a little on the fence.
Initially I was on the fence as well, however now that I know some of the main folks behind Open Carry Texas and have a better understanding their mission (in which they are very consistent), I have great personal respect for what they're doing.

A very important point, their mission as I understand it is:
1.) Constitutional Carry, meaning you don't need a permission slip to protect yourself and your family when whether at home or out and about. i.e. "to keep and >bear< arms".
2.) Equal protection under the law for all men to be armed, not just "special" groups with the right permission slip from the right hall monitor (more on this below)

These regular folks, like you and me, are fighting for their and our right to life and defense thereof. And they're persevering, in spite of disingenuous multi-million dollar propaganda and political campaigns by powerful men surrounded by 24/7 armed bodyguards.

Turns out limiting a man's right to keep AND bear arms (as is the case today) may be in violation of the Texas Constitution as well.

I expect to see Open Carry pass via the 2015 Texas Legislature, and there's a good chance it will actually be permission-slip-free Constitutional Carry - largely as a result of the hard work of the Open Carry Texas folks.


2.) Guns in public - and people afraid of seeing guns
v8r wrote:I think a lot of these organizations mean well, but when you see people walking around the capital with Ak's and Ar's at the low ready position it makes a lot of people leery, and to be honest me as well. I feel they have done nothing, but make us gun owners and CHL holders as a whole look like a bunch of nut jobs.
Understood. Practically speaking, however, they're making their voice heard and petitioning for their rights to effective self defense in the only real way they can... and it's working.

These guys would MUCH rather have a Glock/Sig on their hip than an AR on on their back in Texas summer heat. A handgun on the hip is far preferable in most situations to hauling around an AR/AK/shotgun, but in Texas - a state supposedly known for gun friendly laws - it's still illegal to carry a modern handgun. So they're putting it out there.

Hollywood has been very active in the anti-gun propaganda campaign far a long time... yet as more states strike down their limiting gun laws, crime stays the same or goes down, and most people just don't care.

As for people being afraid of seeing guns... in the 4 states that already have open carry, I found this to be the general attitude after the fear mostly hypothetical fear mongering dies down:



Incidentally I remember similar hysteria / propaganda when Concealed Carry was first coming to Florida and Texas in the early 90's... which was early on in the major crime drop since then.


3.) U.S. Right to Carry changing in recent years

U.S. Right to Carry has been severely restricted for many years... But that is changing, and fast.

Coinciding with rapid drop and consistent in crime rates of course. Basic human psychology: armed men and women make poor victims, so criminals may as well find some honest work.

Also, the more good men and women people that are armed and ABLE to effectively defend themselves, the less murderers, rapists, muggers, etc. get to live another day to victimize another innocent soul.

See this animated about changing Right to Carry over last 20 years... watch it all the way through:

Image

All this aside, it's also important to remember the knife is one of man's oldest tools... the firearm as a tool for self defense has not been around nearly as long (and arguably a Glock is a far better defense tool in most cases than a knife), but BOTH can serve a valid role in self defense. So knife rights are also very, very important. As we saw in the UK, once they get your guns, they come for your knives.

The Knife Rights organization is one of the very few fighting for this, tho expect to see knife rights restored along with gun rights. For example, switchblades again became legal in Texas, and surprise, surprise, good people who buy them didn't go on killing sprees lol.


4.) Right to Carry vs Permission Slip vs Actual Crime Against Another
v8r wrote:We need for people to understand that our Second Amendment right is important, perhaps the most important. How are we going to defend our other rights and liberties without it?
This is the tricky one, the cognitive dissonance around "it can't happen here" kicks into high gear, regardless of what the last 100 years of history have shown...

Indeed, a man's most fundamental right is the right to defend himself and his family - and to be left the **** alone if he so chooses.

No man is made of finer cloth than another... not a UPS driver, not a politician, not a bureaucrat, not a bank teller, etc. so special privileges with permission slips have no place in a free society.

In addition, a brief review of history shows us that permission slips have the great advantage of being easily revokable for any reason, as well as letting the politicians know where the guns are. Thus putting the very life and livelihood of a man in the hands of any bureaucrat with a grudge or a politician with jobs prospects. Every fascist regime in history has disarmed it's opponents, totally "legally" and called it mental health or something else that sounded good on TV at the time. It's worked every time, netting roughly 250 Million dead in the last 100 years. Incomprehensible numbers.

All these laws and limits are a form of "pre-crime" combined with victimless crime. No law will stop a man **** bent on harming another. The always affect good, honest people, who care about the laws, thus making them easy prey for criminals.

These laws provide no safety value, they just shift power from good, honest people, to criminals, by giving them a general monopoly on effective violence. Basic economics.

Even worse, many people don't realize that "gun rights" as a privilege, i.e. based on a permission slip system are often removed from peaceful people for victimless crimes - meaning peaceful people that did not hurt anyone. For example, smoking a joint. VERY dangerous territory there, and the only real safety available is true Constitutional Carry.

We have laws against hurting others, murder, rape, robbery, etc. Pre-crime laws only create immaginary crime where none has been committed, and make good people easier victims to predators.


Well... that was far longer than expected lol.

Back to my Resilience review, and dammit I'm actually going to get that finished today! Heck, maybe I'll also finish the review on the most excellent and ultra portable FourSevens Mini ML flashlight. :)

Have an awesome day!
Dan
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The Deacon
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#27

Post by The Deacon »

All great points Dan, but they sidestep the simple fact that having a requirement for concealed carry and allowing any responsible adult to carry without the need of a permit are not mutually exclusive. They are, in truth, two separate and distinct issues. Is it really that hard for some "gun folks" to understand that, while seeing someone walk into Burger King with an AR15 in hand may not be any more a cause for concern than seeing that same person walk in with a baseball bat or claw hammer in hand, it's not going to be any less a cause for concern either. Truth is, if I see anyone that I don't know with any object in their hand or openly visible that I consider to be a potential weapon, in an area where there's no situational context for that object, I'm going to keep a very close eye on them and maintain as much distance as possible. Someone with a golf club in hand at a golf course, no problem. Someone carrying a baseball bat at the ball park or batting cages, no problem. Someone walking around with a claw hammer on a construction site, no problem, Any of those three in my local supermarket, that's a different story altogether.

As for permits, I'm totally opposed to those like New York's, that have zero requirement for training, yet are absolutely necessary in order to even own a handgun for home defense and require each and every handgun you own to be registered. On the other hand, I do see some validity and merit to those like South Carolina's that basically just a license to carry a handgun on your person in public. You do not need a SC CWP to purchase a handgun, to possess a handgun, to carry a handgun openly or concealed on your own property, or even to keep one loaded in your vehicle. You can go to the range and shoot as often as you can afford without one. You can use a handgun hunt on private land, with the owner's permission, without one. If you do decide to get a SC CWP, there's no actual link between it and whatever handgun or handguns you own. In fact, there's no actual requirement that you own a handgun. Is it really any less reasonable to require someone to at least be exposed to the basics of firearms safety, the "rules of engagement" for using deadly force, and show they can at least hit a stationary target with some degree of consistency, before allowing them to go armed in public than it is to require some level of training and demonstration of minimal proficiency before allowing them to operate a motor vehicle on public roads?
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#28

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Agreed, it is really about mutual respect and if we don't show some then we are no better than those who want to take all guns away. The people who are walking around with ar15s at the ready are making a political statement and not simply trying to protect themselves. This is no different than saying that nobody should be allowed to own a gun. As soon as you sound like an extremist you lose credibility in many peoples eyes and begin to lose the fight.


I am allowed to open carry where I live but I prefer concealed carry because I believe it provides a tactical advantage and do not believe it is beneficial to open carry for personal protection. I do not want to instigate a conflict by showing a weapon and also want to maintain the element of surprise.

I do not need a handgun permit of any kind to purchase a firearm and I am allowed to conceal carry on my property or in my car without a permit. I need a permit to conceal carry otherwise or else I face misdemeanor charges.
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Re: Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

#29

Post by phillipsted »

I'm a solid supporter or the Second Amendment. I have several firearms of various flavors and a good amount of ammunition. I have taught my family members how to handle firearms safely - and I'm proud to say that my youngest son is an excellent marksman in the Boy Scouts. I have received CCW training and have a permit for my home state.

However - I never carry my weapon with me unless I'm headed to the range. And I never carry concealed. My reasons have nothing to do with principles or politics. I simply don't want to assume the risk of a split-second decision determining the course of my life. I don't trust myself to be 100% right every time, all the time. On top of that, I live in the area around our Nation's Capital, and there are hundreds of obscure Federal, State, and Local rules/laws/procedures/regulations governing firearms. One time, I counted the number of different "jurisdictions" I pass through on my way to work during my morning commute. The number was 19, if I recall. Each different jurisdiction has different laws that are all over the map. The odds of my inadvertently violating one of these laws is pretty high in my area...

Home defense is another story. I have weapons safely cached all around my house - loaded and ready for use. My home is my castle - and I *will* protect my family.

TedP
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