Gun safety, why do you carry, etc.

[DansGunBlog]

Hey guys,

This was a tangential topic that kept coming up in the thread I started about "Which handgun do you pair with which Spyderco for EDC?", so starting a new thread to not derail the original, and so we can all enjoy the gun/knife porn in that thread. :-)

Just as with "why do you need a knife?", the topic of choosing to have and carry firearms can be divisive, so please keep comments respectful and friendly, as this community tends to be anyway.

Thanks!
Dan

[Studey]

I find the treatment of firearm carriers/owners to be ridiculous. We are almost constantly talked down to by those who disagree, while the opposite is rarely true.

"Oh, you don't carry a gun? That's cool. "

"Oh, you carry a gun? Why? That makes me uncomfortable. Are you afraid of something? Why do you want to hurt people? Guns cause crime. You must be abnormal for wanting to be armed."

Why the constant berating?

I like guns. They're fun to shoot. I like owning them, and I appreciate the respect that must go into handling them. I also train and instruct in their defensive use, and enjoy that as well.

I will likely live my entire life without ever needing to fire a gun defensively, but should I need to, I'll be glad to have it.

I don't plan on getting into a life-or-death situation, but I carry a pistol, just in case.
I don't plan on being in a car wreck, but I wear a seatbelt, just in case.
I don't plan on my house burning down, but I have fire extinguishers, just in case.
I don't plan on dying, but I have life insurance, just in case.

Most people understand the prudence of certain precautions. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand about the possibility of encountering violence.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I agree. People are being conditioned to treat gun and knife owners and carriers like dangerous and 'crude' backwards people. Its very wrong and hypocritical.

[bearfacedkiller]

I have always been into guns and have always enjoyed hunting and shooting as hobbies. I had always thought about getting my concealed carry permit but kept putting it off because I thought that the odds of me needing it were so slim and I was at a younger point in my life and was much more capable of defending myself with my fists and or running away. I am by no means old now but I am not in my twenties anymore either. The thing that changed everything for me was becoming a parent. That protective nature kicked in and now I feel as though it is my responsibility to protect my family. It isn't just about protecting them and is about protecting myself when they are not around because they are counting on me in more ways than one. I not only provide significant financial security but I also just need and want to be there as a father and husband for them. For this reason I decided that I needed to EDC a firearm at all times in order to ensure that my family would be protected from any danger or from losing me. Denver really is a fairly safe city, particularly the areas that I frequent but we did have an individual shoot up a movie theater out here and bad things do happen and they certainly do happen here. I am not paranoid and do not live in fear but I do believe in the Boy Scout motto of "be prepared". There is a saying, "hope for the best and prepare for the worst". I believe this is sound advice

It is true that gun owners and especially concealed weapons carriers are treated like villans. I think that this largely is caused by an irrational fear of firearms which stems from ignorance and misinformation. This misinformation and this irrational fear is largely fueled by politicians, the media and the movie industry. Our politicians can certainly be fear mongers. I try to explain to people that a person who obtains a firearm lawfully and who applies for a ccw so they can further comply with the law has already shown that they are not a criminal. That obeying the law is their intention and these individuals are not detrimental to society and if anything could be a benefit. I still get a look that shows that they still can't accept that. I am not sure at this point if it is possible to shake that irrational fear from the ignorant and misinformed. I am no vigilante but would not hesitate to defend a complete stranger if they were in danger but sadly most complete strangers would rather I did not carry a firearm.

I am just thankful that I am allowed to conceal carry a firearm and I will continue to do so and just hide it from everyone who can't handle it or who want to condemn me for it.

[DansGunBlog]

I will likely live my entire life without ever needing to fire a gun defensively, but should I need to, I'll be glad to have it.

I don't plan on getting into a life-or-death situation, but I carry a pistol, just in case.
I don't plan on being in a car wreck, but I wear a seatbelt, just in case.
I don't plan on my house burning down, but I have fire extinguishers, just in case.
I don't plan on dying, but I have life insurance, just in case.

Most people understand the prudence of certain precautions. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand about the possibility of encountering violence.

Studey, great list of "just in case" above! Trying to think if there any other examples for that list, that's a great start! :-)

The psychology there is interesting. Most folks can't fathom the idea of running into a dangerous or life threatening situation, in large part because they won't accept the possibility, it is something very uncomfortable to think about, so we see a lot of cognitive dissonance around it, regardless of facts, figures, statistical probability, etc.

The good thing is they likely won't run into such a situation... but it helps to always be aware and alert, AVOID problems to begin with. And finally be prepared rather than wishing you had been prepared, just in case.

My girls know how to handle firearms, how to shoot safely and effectively (will get into the firearms safety stuff in a bit, it's huge here, and all the gun owners I know are VERY anal about it, as I am) - but most importantly, they've learned situational awareness. Look around and pay attention... 99% of the time you can avoid a problem by being aware and not getting into it to begin with. Cost/benefit.

Dan

[DansGunBlog]

This is something I posted on my blog a while back (here). Nobody knows really who the real author is, but it's not important.

What IS important is the content... It's about ensuring respect and CONSENT, about persuasion vs force.

This is one of the most coherent and simple explanations I've seen on the topic, and a very accurate real life representation of why I'd say every gun owner I know has and/or carries.

Enjoy.

---

“The Gun Is Civilization” by Major L. Caudill USMC, Ret

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.

Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a armed mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

It removes force from the equation… and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.

[Liquid Cobra]

Gunman in canada today shot and killed an honour guard in Ottawa then attacked our parliament building. He was killed by one of the only men in parliament allowed to keep a handgun in his office. The soldier was armed with an empty rifle, just for show.

[The Deacon]

In my part of South Carolina, the average response time to a 911 call is about 17 minutes. The Sheriff here, and those of several neighboring counties have publicly advised responsible citizens, women and seniors in particular, to learn how to shoot, know when shooting is justified, and get a CWP. They understand, and acknowledge that their officers are NOT going to be instantly available when you are in danger. They'll do an excellent job of finding out who killed you, and bringing your killer(s) to justice, but a fat lot of good that will do you.

I'm sure that, like most places, the vast majority of violent crime here involves either a drug deal or a personal relationship gone wrong, but there are still cases where some poor bastard was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have absolutely no desire to play the hero, but I have equally little intent to be a passive victim. I'm 69 years old and not in the best of shape, so just about any attacker is going to be younger and stronger than me. I have considerably more confidence in my ability to put 5 rounds into a grapefruit at 5 yards than in my chances of beating off an attacker with my fists or surviving a knife fight.

Then to, humans are not the only threat, perhaps not even the most probable one given that I live in a fairly quiet neighborhood, shop at stores in equally good ones, and never go to bars. OTOH, I walk several miles a day with Bear, my Pekingese and, even in my development, there are a few large dogs owned by irresponsible people too lazy to walk them and too cheap to fence their yard. A gal and her small dog were mauled by one of them last year on a street I often walk with Bear. Don't intend to let that happen to either him or me.

[wrdwrght]

“The Gun Is Civilization” by Major L. Caudill USMC,

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

Major Caudill's paragraph here precisely captures why I have a permit for concealed carry. His logic extends beyond two-legged threats to the four-legged variety. I will protect my dogs...

[DansGunBlog]

“The Gun Is Civilization” by Major L. Caudill USMC,

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

Major Caudill's paragraph here precisely captures why I have a permit for concealed carry. His logic extends beyond two-legged threats to the four-legged variety. I will protect my dogs...

Absolutely. My pups are family, they just have four legs and fur. And like the kids, my responsibility to them is for life. That's just basic honor and loyalty far as I'm concerned.

Dan

[v8r]

Gunman in canada today shot and killed an honour guard in Ottawa then attacked our parliament building. He was killed by one of the only men in parliament allowed to keep a handgun in his office. The soldier was armed with an empty rifle, just for show.

Wasn't the individual that got us off on this subject in the first forum from Canada? Don't get me wrong Liquid Cobra there is nothing wrong with the country, but to have a guard with a weapon that is unloaded ..........?Wow. I feel sorry for you guys up there. I feel sorry for the guard's family and the others that were involved. It is simply insane to have laws that are so restrictive on firearms where even a guard cannot have a loaded weapon. That is beyond my comprehension I guess?

[OldSarSwmr]

Gunman in canada today shot and killed an honour guard in Ottawa then attacked our parliament building. He was killed by one of the only men in parliament allowed to keep a handgun in his office. The soldier was armed with an empty rifle, just for show.

Wasn't the individual that got us off on this subject in the first forum from Canada? Don't get me wrong Liquid Cobra there is nothing wrong with the country, but to have a guard with a weapon that is unloaded ..........?Wow. I feel sorry for you guys up there. I feel sorry for the guard's family and the others that were involved. It is simply insane to have laws that are so restrictive on firearms where even a guard cannot have a loaded weapon. That is beyond my comprehension I guess?

I believe the soldier that was killed at the war memorial was part of a Ceremonial Honor Guard. I was in the U.S. Coast Guard Ceremonial Honor Guard '89-'91 and we did not carry live rounds. None of the services Honor Guards carried loaded weapons during ceremonies. Standing watch at monuments was more of a respect/honor thing than a security function. Hope that clears up any confusion.

Dan

[chuck_roxas45]

I actually have a personal experience, two rather. In my country, there's lots of marginalized people who have been conditioned by the media that "rich" people are the enemy and as a result, road rage is quite prevalent.

One time me and my wife were on a bike, on a one way private road and a delivery van was coming in the opposite direction. After some maneuvering and squeezing he we managed to go by each other but my bike had stalled. I heard the truck's door open and I saw this yahoo, carrying a "rambo knife" walking towards us. I swept my wife off my bike and was off the bike myself double quick and I never drew my G22 from concealment faster than that day.

Luckily, I didn't have to fire because the yahoo withdrew upon seeing me draw. I believe that that time, my firearm prevented serious injury or worse from happening during that incident.

[Officer Gigglez]

I find the treatment of firearm carriers/owners to be ridiculous. We are almost constantly talked down to by those who disagree, while the opposite is rarely true.

"Oh, you don't carry a gun? That's cool. "

"Oh, you carry a gun? Why? That makes me uncomfortable. Are you afraid of something? Why do you want to hurt people? Guns cause crime. You must be abnormal for wanting to be armed."

Why the constant berating?

I like guns. They're fun to shoot. I like owning them, and I appreciate the respect that must go into handling them. I also train and instruct in their defensive use, and enjoy that as well.

I will likely live my entire life without ever needing to fire a gun defensively, but should I need to, I'll be glad to have it.

I don't plan on getting into a life-or-death situation, but I carry a pistol, just in case.
I don't plan on being in a car wreck, but I wear a seatbelt, just in case.
I don't plan on my house burning down, but I have fire extinguishers, just in case.
I don't plan on dying, but I have life insurance, just in case.

Most people understand the prudence of certain precautions. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand about the possibility of encountering violence.

This. This A LOT.

[Officer Gigglez]

I carry because I intend to defend myself and/or others from two legged predators, and sometimes four legged ones if need be. I also like guns. I carry one on duty, off duty, at home, on the john, or wherever I am, or whatever I am doing. I have a gun with me, should the situation occur when it is needed.

[FarmerTed]

People that carry knives are crazy. The only people that carried a knife in public that I know of were the terrorists that cut off the head of the british soldier.

The terrorist in Canada that gunned down a soldier and shot up parliament building was actually stopped by the Sgt at Arms when he offered him hugs and handshakes.

The terrorist in Canada that ran down two soldiers with his car clearly demonstrates that only evil terrorists have cars.

I don't think rationally, I just have feelings, and they're hurt by freedom loving people.

[Studey]

People that carry knives are crazy. The only people that carried a knife in public that I know of were the terrorists that cut off the head of the british soldier.

The terrorist in Canada that gunned down a soldier and shot up parliament building was actually stopped by the Sgt at Arms when he offered him hugs and handshakes.

The terrorist in Canada that ran down two soldiers with his car clearly demonstrates that only evil terrorists have cars.

I don't think rationally, I just have feelings, and they're hurt by freedom loving people.

Sounds about right.

[v8r]

Dan,
What is your take on the push for open carry in Texas?
I for one don't know if I agree with it. I guess I'm a little on the fence. I don't have a problem with people exercising their right, but don't know if we need a bunch of "cowboys" walking around frightening people either. It's hard to win over people when they are frightened of you. I feel organizations such as OCT for example are perhaps going about it the wrong way. We need for people to understand that our Second Ammendment right is important, perhaps the most important. How are we going to defend our other rights and liberties without it? I think a lot of these organizations mean well, but when you see people walking around the capital with Ak's and Ar's at the low ready position it makes a lot of people leery, and to be honest me as well. I feel they have done nothing, but make us gun owners and CHL holders as a whole look like a bunch of nut jobs.

Anyone feel free to comment and tell me if my reasoning is flawed.

[The Deacon]

Dan,
What is your take on the push for open carry in Texas?
I for one don't know if I agree with it. I guess I'm a little on the fence. I don't have a problem with people exercising their right, but don't know if we need a bunch of "cowboys" walking around frightening people either. It's hard to win over people when they are frightened of you. I feel organizations such as OCT for example are perhaps going about it the wrong way. We need for people to understand that our Second Ammendment right is important, perhaps the most important. How are we going to defend our other rights and liberties without it? I think a lot of these organizations mean well, but when you see people walking around the capital with Ak's and Ar's at the low ready position it makes a lot of people leery, and to be honest me as well. I feel they have done nothing, but make us gun owners and CHL holders as a whole look like a bunch of nut jobs.

Anyone feel free to comment and tell me if my reasoning is flawed.

I don't think it's the least bit flawed, v8r. Even free speech has its limits, as in "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater". I think that guns and knives should be carried with some discretion, but that, just as most people understand that there's a reasonable middle ground between being required to wear a burka and full frontal nudity, there should be one between the "has to be totally hidden to the point where it doesn't even print" philosophy of many concealed carry states and walking around town with a long gun in your hands. I'd never want to intentionally advertise that I was armed, but at the same time, I dislike having to pay so much attention to absolute concealment. I think there's a world of difference between the "message" sent by someone with a holstered handgun that might occasionally expose a hint of leather or wood if they bend or reach, and that sent by someone walking around town with a gun of any kind in their hands.

[Studey]

Dan,
What is your take on the push for open carry in Texas?
I for one don't know if I agree with it. I guess I'm a little on the fence. I don't have a problem with people exercising their right, but don't know if we need a bunch of "cowboys" walking around frightening people either. It's hard to win over people when they are frightened of you. I feel organizations such as OCT for example are perhaps going about it the wrong way. We need for people to understand that our Second Ammendment right is important, perhaps the most important. How are we going to defend our other rights and liberties without it? I think a lot of these organizations mean well, but when you see people walking around the capital with Ak's and Ar's at the low ready position it makes a lot of people leery, and to be honest me as well. I feel they have done nothing, but make us gun owners and CHL holders as a whole look like a bunch of nut jobs.

Anyone feel free to comment and tell me if my reasoning is flawed.

I don't think it's the least bit flawed, v8r. Even free speech has its limits, as in "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater". I think that guns and knives should be carried with some discretion, but that, just as most people understand that there's a reasonable middle ground between being required to wear a burka and full frontal nudity, there should be one between the "has to be totally hidden to the point where it doesn't even print" philosophy of many concealed carry states and walking around town with a long gun in your hands. I'd never want to intentionally advertise that I was armed, but at the same time, I dislike having to pay so much attention to absolute concealment. I think there's a world of difference between the "message" sent by someone with a holstered handgun that might occasionally expose a hint of leather or wood if they bend or reach, and that sent by someone walking around town with a gun of any kind in their hands.

Agreed. Open carry is generally a poor idea, and that's one of the reasons.