Laminated-Knives: ?

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SpyderEdgeForever
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Laminated-Knives: ?

#1

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Mora of Sweden used to manufacture more laminated steel bladed knives, especially in the original "scout" style, with the steel guard. They still make two or so, but, why do you think there are less? I notice that aside from Fallkniven, and Cold Steel with their San Mai III laminated steel, laminated steel knives are few and far in between. The Norwegiens make some. But why has laminated steel never caught on big in the world of knives? Is it due to the expense of the laminating machines and forging the layers together, and, lack of market demand?
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Blerv
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#2

Post by Blerv »

I think more than anything it's modern heat treating abilities and stainless steel tech. There are still boutique reasons to use a clad but it's less of a necessity with high carbon SS than years past of trying to keep a high performance tool from rustig away.

Not sure though!
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#3

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Thank you, I see what you mean.

For me, apart from the increased performance, I like to look at the knife and see the faint lamination lines.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#4

Post by JD Spydo »

One of my most wanted knives that I've yet to obtain is made of laminated VG-10 blade steel. The FALLKNIVEN "THOR" model is a big bowie I've been trying to find at a reasonable cost for some time now. I've too been wondering what it's benefits might be.

I'm sure that tensile strength would surely be better but I'm not sure what other benefits you would gain.

I do like the idea of laminated steel and I'm sure the concept would be great if it's done right. The Japanese and particularly in their sword making has used laminated construction for quite some time now. I know there must be a huge benefit or they wouldn't go through the trouble they do making their swords and big culinary blades with that method.

I'm anxious to see what the benefits are on each application.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#5

Post by Blerv »

Agree with both of ya :). I bought a Moki-made Fallkniven PXL Workhorse (Grilon scales handles) that uses a laminated Cobalt Special partially because I love that laminated line. Unlike the Caly 3/3.5 though it required a pretty heavy regrind by Travis.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#6

Post by Doc Dan »

I bought the Caly3 because it has a laminated blade. Cool tech.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#7

Post by JD Spydo »

Doc Dan wrote:I bought the Caly3 because it has a laminated blade. Cool tech.
Yeah at the moment the only 2 blades I own that have laminated steel are both Spyders. I still have my original Burgundy Caly Jr from 2005 which had laminated ZDP-189 which was sandwiched by 420 J2.

But again that laminated VG-10 has really got my attention because I've always loved VG-10 for a lot of reasons. For a steel that doesn't meet the criteria of one of the newer supersteels I think VG-10 is the best one out of Spyderco's main line. Which is why I would like to try one of Fallkniven's laminated VG-10 blades and preferably one of the big boys like the "THOR" model.

I like bigger Bowies for a lot of reasons>> I cut my teeth on a Cold Steel TrailMaster. Now Cold Steel has some laminated blades in it's line up of Bowies and I believe at least one of their present Gurkha Kukri blades has laminated steel as well.

You don't see it a lot in the production knife companies but it out there if you look hard enough.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#8

Post by Cliff Stamp »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:But why has laminated steel never caught on big in the world of knives?
Laminated steel used to be the way knives were made, it isn't any more aside from specialty items. It is very similar to wearing clothing made from animal skins, it used to be necessary, it isn't now.

--

The reason laminated steel had to be used was because steel was at one point very expensive and labor was very cheap. It was easy to get labor, very difficult to get steel as you had to actually make it if you were a knife maker, you could not just buy it. The only part of the knife that needed the high quality knife steel is the edge, it isn't like you sharpened the spine or the tang so they would all be made with simpler/cheaper materials, even an old boat anchor could be chopped up and used for all that part.

Now there are performance advantages of course but like all things they have + and - :

-the low carbon clad is much easier to grind (also easier to scratch)
-the clad is much tougher (also much weaker)

Thus for example you have complaints on Spyderco's own clads :

-the 420 clads on the ZDP knives were easy to scratch
-the SuperBlue clads leave very weak blades

In general now, not a lot of people want those benefits because :

-very heavy work is usually argued to be abusive, knives are not as heavily used in extremes
-people don't sharpen primary grinds much

and people are more interested in aesthetics so scratches as a serious negative to a lot of people.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#9

Post by JD Spydo »

Hey CLIFF don't the Japanese Swordsmiths still use the fold over method of making swords? I seen a special on the History Channel about 5 years ago showing a Japanese Swordsmith folding over the steel many times and I've always thought that was a type of lamination?

Many of my uncles on mom's and dad's sides of the family were WW II vets and most of them told me that one of the biggest and most coveted prizes they sought to obtain were the Japanese Swords. I've often heard they make about the best on the Planet.

I know the Brits were at one time known for their high quality swords but I'm not sure what methods they used in their manufacture. Interesting thread needless to say.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#10

Post by bdblue »

JD Spydo wrote:Hey CLIFF don't the Japanese Swordsmiths still use the fold over method of making swords?
This is somewhat similar to damascus steel. The reason for the layering is to infuse carbon through the steel. They didn't have elaborate steel manufacturing methods so they couldn't alloy steel like we do now. They could only get carbon into the shallow outside layer of the steel, but if you fold that over now you have some carbon inside the steel. Fold it over enough times and you have carbon infused throughout the steel.

I saw a documentary about Japanese sword making where they had a steel source that looked like volcanic rock, but even with that they needed to make the steel composition more uniform and/or get the carbon distributed.

These days we have some pretty good steels that you can buy in pieces that you just grind into a blade, so there isn't as much benefit to damascus or laminated steels. I believe you can make a blade a little less brittle by laminating so that is the real benefit if a manufacturer wants to do it and do it right. The way a lot of laminated blades are made I don't think it is worth the effort.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#11

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Thank you, Cliff, Blerv, Doc, JD and everyone. This also reminds me of this book I was reading about the knives and cutting tools such as axes of the frontierspeople and the colonial period of America. In one chapter the author discusses how good consistent steel was rare, and the blacksmiths would often times take a hard steel edge, and forge-weld it with softer iron sides, instead of forging one piece of steel. Early tomahawks and hatchets were made this way, according to the author, until around the middle to late 1800s when large-scale production of consistent steel was available.

There is also an interesting book series called "FoxFire", about Appalachian craftspeople and how they made various items. In one of the books they interview smiths and rifle makers and one of them mentioned how the best steel came from Sweden, even back then.

Here is a link to the Fox Fire book series, for anyone interested:

http://www.foxfire.org/thefoxfirebookseries.aspx" target="_blank
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#12

Post by Cliff Stamp »

JD Spydo wrote:Hey CLIFF don't the Japanese Swordsmiths still use the fold over method of making swords?
Some of them actually pretty much still make steel.

The ABS guys still forge, though they usually start off with precision stock unless they are doing some kind of particular piece. A lot of people do also use reclaimed steel as well. They get similar functional benefits to the laminated blade by a differential hardening practice.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#13

Post by wrdwrght »

Cliff Stamp wrote:the SuperBlue clads leave very weak blades
Cliff, could you elaborate just a bit? How would this weakness become known? A catastrophic snap somewhere along the blade? But if this is the likely expression, perhaps the blade was not used for slicing but for prying or otherwise torquing? In which case, could it not be said that the SuperBlue clad is just among the weaker of knives that are mostly too weak for prying or torquing, if you see what I mean...
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#14

Post by Cliff Stamp »

wrdwrght wrote: Cliff, could you elaborate just a bit? How would this weakness become known?
There are a few reports of people bending the blades doing just heavy cutting. The clad is very soft and weak, this is common on traditional clad knives. https://youtu.be/GbmdNuG_wTQ" target="_blank
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#15

Post by wrdwrght »

Cliff Stamp wrote:
wrdwrght wrote: Cliff, could you elaborate just a bit? How would this weakness become known?
There are a few reports of people bending the blades doing just heavy cutting. The clad is very soft and weak, this is common on traditional clad knives. https://youtu.be/GbmdNuG_wTQ" target="_blank
Good to know. Thanks.
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Re: Laminated-Knives: ?

#16

Post by bdblue »

wrdwrght wrote:could you elaborate just a bit
The general concept would be to put the more ductile steel on the outside and the harder steel on the inside. Or in other words "put the weaker steel on the outside and the stronger steel on the inside". This is the tradeoff with steel properties- the stronger steel is more prone to sudden fracture while the weaker steel will deform in bending rather than just break. So if you have a laminated knife and you are doing rough treatment that stresses the blade sideways, the blade will bend but not break while the blade that is solid hard steel will just suddenly break. You see the blade bend and you know to stop what you are doing. Also you are left with a blade that is still one piece rather than multiple pieces.

If you do differential heat treating right you will achieve the same thing- heat treat the edge where it is thinner, leave the thicker material near the spine at lower hardness. Now when you bend the blade sideways the bending stress in the thicker material is higher, the bending stress in the thinner material is lower. The thicker material, being weaker, will permanently bend as opposed to suddenly breaking. The thinner material that might be prone to sudden fracture never gets stressed to a level that will harm it.
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