Negligent discharge

[Evil D]

It is always a "possibility" that an accidental discharge may happen. But it is not true that it is always a negligent discharge. That is idiotic. That means that even a mechanical failure is the fault of the gun handler. I had a Ruger rifle that went off when I worked the bolt with the safety on and my hand obviously far from the trigger. It turned out Ruger issued a recall on that particular series for that exact problem. I was no way by no means at fault.

Proper gun handling safety requires pointing a gun, especially one that is thought to be unloaded, in a safe direction because of mechanical failures, as well as negligent actions of a handler.

It isn't always a negligent discharge, but people often use 'AD's and 'ND's interchangeably, which they are not. Frequently they say something like, "the gun just went off." That CAN be the case due to an actual problem with the firearm, but it usually isn't, as it usually comes out that there was some negligence. People blame things on guns that are their fault, just like "the sights are off!" (I'm not referring to you Doc, clearly there was an issue with that Ruger!)

You are correct about muzzle direction. The reason for the 4 rules is that if one of them is broken, everything is usually still fine. It's when more than one is broken that you tend to see NDs happening.

Aside from a true mechanical or ammo malfunction, which I think are extremely rare, I think most AD's are really ND's if a person is honest and really works out what happened. Since this happened to me I've been reading up on it a lot and spoke with some trainers I know locally and it seems like the vast majority of them occur when people either fail to check for an empty chamber/assuming the gun is not loaded, or oddly enough when trying to reholster. This whole ordeal truly shocked me because when I pressed that trigger I really did think the gun was unloaded. In hindsight I know I should have checked anyway, and the more I replay it in my head I can see where I got mixed up, but the bottom line is unless your eyes have looked down that chamber beforehand, you shouldn't press the trigger unless you intend to shoot something.

I had my mind on about a dozen other things I was trying to get done before work, and sorting out holster issues was something I should have been focusing on when I had more free time. In the process of working it out, several times I had come to that "OK this is fine, lets give this a try, I've gotta get going" and so I loaded the gun back up and walked out of the bathroom intending to leave for the day. Then my indecisiveness kicked in and I went back to check for printing or moving the holster to a different spot. I did this at least 3 times and every time I removed the mag and emptied the chamber...I'm honestly very diligent about doing this any time I handle my guns, but this last time I just had an absolute brain fart and started thinking about how drawing from this holster would work out, and when I drew it out and aimed (just straight ahead like any other time you'd be shooting) there was this moment in my mind where I questioned myself and a little voice said "yeah you've unloaded this thing 3 times, it's clear". The exact moment I screwed up is because I had slipped the mag back in the gun to see how it effected printing (+2 mag extension) and I racked the slide because I wanted to dry fire it, and it didn't occurred to me what I had just done since the mag was loaded and I had just cycled a round into the chamber. So, on one hand I did start out with an empty chamber/gun and was doing things by the book (in fact the round that was originally in the chamber was sitting on the sink from where I had unloaded it), I just made the mistake of doing any sort of dry firing exercise with live ammo/loaded mags in the same area.

Beyond all that crazy crap, in the end I decided that Smart Carry holster just won't do the job either. I don't see how anyone can carry in those kind of holsters. I can conceal it pretty well, but unless I wear my belt so loose that my pants are falling off, I can't get my huge hand down the front of my pants to draw. And, that's aside from the point that carrying a loaded gun that's pointing directly at my twig and berries is not something I think I would ever feel comfortable with.

[The Deacon]

Aside from a true mechanical or ammo malfunction, which I think are extremely rare, I think most AD's are really ND's if a person is honest and really works out what happened.

That's true, David, but it's also true for accidents of any type. Even some mechanical failures are really caused by a lack of proper maintenance, which is just another way of saying negligence. Calling it a ND does acknowledge that you're aware you failed to follow the rules, but if someone calls it an Accidental or a Unintentional Discharge that doesn't necessarily mean they're not aware it was their fault.

Glad you're ok, your family is ok, and that you learned a valuable lesson at a relatively low cost.

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friends,

First and foremost, I am very glad that their were no injuries.

I have been present for several negligent discharges; two cases were a failure to read the manual/understand the mechanism and one was a failure to follow directions. I have been handling firearms since I was about 8 years old, started carrying concealed at age 21 (I carried daily and still do), have spent the past twenty years as a certified firearms instructor and ten of those years working at a firearms retailer, and can say that thankfully I have thus far managed about 39 years of handling firearms without a negligent discharge.

No matter how many years I have been teaching handgun safety and marksmanship I always approach every handgun as though it were the first time, every time. All it takes is a split-second of distraction to result in a catastrophe. You always check to see if it is loaded, every time. Yes, some of my friends think I am a little paranoid in how I handle firearms in general, and handguns in particular. I go over the four rules when I am handling firearms, every time. Overkill? Maybe. Maybe not.

EvilD, I certainly won't beat you up over a mistake - some folks that I deeply respect have done far worse, and it seems you are beating yourself up pretty severely already. It took some serious stones to admit it publicly, and bonus points for calling it negligent rather than accidental - you owned it and I'll wager you will be a far safer and better firearms owner long-term because of it. Good on you.

As a side note, you might want to read your employee handbook very, very carefully. One place that I worked provided for me the employee handbook that I was told had a strict "no concealed weapons" policy. I read it and started carrying concealed on my permit the next day. My supervisor was aghast (he was actually just annoyed because he wanted to carry also and didn't think he had the option) until I pointed out the actual wording in the handbook - it was all legalese, "any employee caught carrying a firearm while in the execution of their duties may be subject to disciplinary action up to and including termination". I pointed out that they basically stated that #1 - they had to catch me, and I had never been frisked at work; #2 they never said I would be fired, only that they reserved the right to discipline me if caught. It was their way of covering their butts should I carry concealed and do something stupid with a firearm. I later had the opportunity to confirm this with one of the folks in human resources. After word got around about my interpretation that shop suddenly had the most heavily-armed IT department in the state - I kid you not. EVERYBODY carried and there was NEVER a problem.

A more recent job had a similar "no concealed weapons" policy in the handbook that my boss didn't even know about (the board of directors had written it in - again, to protect themselves from an employee doing something dumb), and he was very relieved when he discovered that I was nevertheless carrying when we took a trip together to a shady part of the state capital for a conference.

The level of concealment of a firearm is generally inversely proportional to the ease of accessibility - if there is a decent firearms retailer around you with a good selection of holsters I would suggest going by there and checking out some of them and seeing how they conceal on you with your particular handgun - what works for one body type often does not for another, and there will also be a lot of variation of concealability depending on how you dress every day.

----------
Hannibal

[Evil D]

The level of concealment of a firearm is generally inversely proportional to the ease of accessibility - if there is a decent firearms retailer around you with a good selection of holsters I would suggest going by there and checking out some of them and seeing how they conceal on you with your particular handgun - what works for one body type often does not for another, and there will also be a lot of variation of concealability depending on how you dress every day.

----------
Hannibal

Thanks to you and everyone for refraining from busting my balls on this, though I can't really say I don't deserve it. I'm taking it extremely seriously and as you said I'm owning it 100%.

As for holsters, I typically carry in a Stealth Gear Onyx, I have one for every gun I carry and they're excellent holsters. The only problem is you can see the belt clips with my shirt tucked in. There happen to be several ex military and ex police working where I work, and I know they would spot those clips and know exactly what they're for (at least I would and I'm not ex anything).

All the dealers around me only carry the standard Crossbreed/Galco selection, and from those options there isn't anything that's going to carry better than my Onyx except maybe a Galco belly band...I'm intrigued by those. I've also considered a shoulder holster since that would eliminate the belt clips, but almost nobody local carries any selection of shoulder holsters and I have no idea if they'd be comfortable enough to wear for 10+ hours doing my job.

[Skaaphaas]

D, you can try and replace the Onyx's clips with Ulticlips. I use one on my Raven Vanguard 2 and it conceals magnificently. I wear formal office wear with tucked in shirt.

[bearfacedkiller]

I carry a LCP with a CT laser in my right front pocket. It conceals well, is comfortable and is easy to draw. You can see the bulge but you can't tell what it is. Nobody has ever questioned me and I have never caught anybody looking at it. If you think a .380 is inadequate then I can agree with that. However, I believe the old saying that the gun you have with you is better than the gun you left at home. I carry my LCP more than any of my other guns because it just carries so easily. With the laser I can put them all on a paper plate at 15 yards fairly quickly. Have you ever considered one or handled one? They aren't the easiest guns to shoot but it does what it was designed to do quite well which is being there when you need it.

[SpyderNut]

I carry a LCP with a CT laser in my right front pocket. It conceals well, is comfortable and is easy to draw. You can see the bulge but you can't tell what it is. Nobody has ever questioned me and I have never caught anybody looking at it. If you think a .380 is inadequate then I can agree with that. However, I believe the old saying that the gun you have with you is better than the gun you left at home. I carry my LCP more than any of my other guns because it just carries so easily. With the laser I can put them all on a paper plate at 15 yards fairly quickly. Have you ever considered one or handled one? They aren't the easiest guns to shoot but it does what it was designed to do quite well which is being there when you need it.

+1

I carry a .380 P238 in the summer because it is lightweight and easily disappears in a pocket of my shorts or clipped in the appendix position on my right side. (I occasionally carry it at 3 o'clock on my right side, but it isn't quite as comfortable). I also have a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster (Thanks again, Farnorthdan!) that works remarkably well when it is hot and humid and you don't feel like carrying a gun in your waistband. I tried the N8 Squared Tactical Holster a few months ago for concealed IWB carry, but it was regrettably not very comfortable at all and I switched to a simple Kydex holster by BladeTech (the Klpit). I HIGHLY recommend this holster to anyone looking for a IWB carry holster. I think it would work great with EvilD's Glock 43, IMHO. As my NRA instructor says, you need to carry every day, everywhere that is legally possible. Nobody but yourself knows that you carry and it should stay that way.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I actually have a question about accidental firearm discharges, if I may ask: Is the following true or false? Many years ago I was speaking with a law enforcement officer and at the time he told me that most American-made pistols, both revolvers and automatics as well as semiautomatics, are manufactured so that when it comes to hard shocks like dropping or whatnot, the guns were so well-made that even if you were to drop one off of a rooftop several storeys tall onto a concrete/cement floor, they were made so as not to go off. I may not be remembering all of what he said exactly as he said it, but, that was the overall statement I recall being told. Would you say this held true for some firearm brands or is this a myth or what?

[tvenuto]

First, I'm glad no one was hurt.

Second, thank you for sharing, as we can all learn, and "feel the pain" of imagining doing this very thing ourselves. It's entirely possible that sharing this story prevents another negligent discharge.

When I was riding motorcycles I remember someone saying: "when you start riding, you have a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience, the trick is to fill the bag of experience before your bag of luck runs out." Which could be interpreted as: "mistakes are going to happen" or "you're playing with fire so learn fast."

In coaching we have a corrective process called NEPA: Noticing, Explaining, Prescribing, Action. It's our way of having clients own the issue, and then take steps to correct it, without blame or excuses. You've done a good job here by going through all the steps:
Noticing - probably the easiest one here, given the "bang," but you did notice that this was an issue that should not be repeated
Explaining - you had ammo in the area, and had other things on your mind
Prescribing - you've decided not to have live ammo in the area when doing any sort of practice or testing, and to do such things when you can devote your full attention to the task at hand
Action - put it into practice

Thanks for the positive reaction to a mistake, that we all can learn from.

I actually have a question about accidental firearm discharges, if I may ask: Is the following true or false? Many years ago I was speaking with a law enforcement officer and at the time he told me that most American-made pistols, both revolvers and automatics as well as semiautomatics, are manufactured so that when it comes to hard shocks like dropping or whatnot, the guns were so well-made that even if you were to drop one off of a rooftop several storeys tall onto a concrete/cement floor, they were made so as not to go off. I may not be remembering all of what he said exactly as he said it, but, that was the overall statement I recall being told. Would you say this held true for some firearm brands or is this a myth or what?

Of course, it's never safe to assume, but almost all modern firearms should be drop safe. The only readily available exceptions I can think of would be a single action revolver without "interrupter bar," and a series 70 1911 with a steel firing pin. I won't go into the nitty gritty, but suffice to say that a dropped discharge of the series 70 1911 is probably a very rare occurrence, and if you've chosen to carry a cowboy action pistol, you probably know its limitations.

[Doc Dan]

I worked in a place that had a no firearms policy. Basically, if it was out of sight it was out of mind. So, I had a little pocket .380 I carried in a front pocket holster. I could get to it very fast, but I did not have to worry about it being seen. I also had a small revolver I sometimes carried in the same fashion. A .380 that weighs only 7-9 oz is an effective option with modern ammunition. Now they make 9mm pistols nearly the same size.

[bearfacedkiller]

I actually have a question about accidental firearm discharges, if I may ask: Is the following true or false? Many years ago I was speaking with a law enforcement officer and at the time he told me that most American-made pistols, both revolvers and automatics as well as semiautomatics, are manufactured so that when it comes to hard shocks like dropping or whatnot, the guns were so well-made that even if you were to drop one off of a rooftop several storeys tall onto a concrete/cement floor, they were made so as not to go off. I may not be remembering all of what he said exactly as he said it, but, that was the overall statement I recall being told. Would you say this held true for some firearm brands or is this a myth or what?

Most modern handguns are tested for this during development. The Ruger LCP was recalled very early in it's life due to reports of this happening. I would say that you are correct and that it is something the gun manufacturers are very conscious of and they try to design mechanisms that prevent this. Even Rugers single action revolvers are now equipped with a transfer bar safety and have been for some time. Like tvenuto said, with the exception of a few older designs that maintain popularity most modern guns should be able to handle a decent shock.

[benben]

You'll get no grief from me Evil, I had one 20 years ago and it seriously screwed me up for a week, or longer! I'm glad you and everyone in your household is fine. I carry either a Glock or HK everyday, I got a crazy deal on my first 1911, a Les Baer that I couldn't wait to get home and play with, grabbed a beer, sit on the couch, took the mag out, made sure it was unloaded, racked the slide several times........and I'm sure it's completely empty, put the mag back in, didn't rack the slide and spotted a coke can 20' away on the hearth, took aim and BOOM. VERY bad day! And yes, centered the can up perfectly. You're a good man Evil, took me around 3 months to tell anyone, I was so embarrassed and disappointed with myself. The crazy thing is I still have no idea what I did. You'll be fine in a week or so but you'll never forget it!

[clovisc]

Maybe I am missing something, but why would anyone be loading, unloading, or dry-firing a firearm indoors?

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friend,

Maybe I am missing something, but why would anyone be loading, unloading, or dry-firing a firearm indoors?

Dry-firing indoors in not unusual - it's a cheap way to practice the fundamentals (trigger control, etc.) without the expense of going to the range and firing live ammunition. Most professional shooters do it.

Loading and unloading is done in the general course of maintenance of your firearm if it is one you use for lawful concealed carry. You will unload to practice dry-firing, for cleaning, etc. You will load it in preparation to carry it concealed on your person.

-----------
Hannibal

[Dr. Snubnose]

Maybe I am missing something, but why would anyone be loading, unloading, or dry-firing a firearm indoors?

It's frowned upon if you do all that outdoors!Doc:)

[Evil D]

Maybe I am missing something, but why would anyone be loading, unloading, or dry-firing a firearm indoors?

Cheapest and easiest way to learn a trigger. It's probably the gun equivalent to sitting on the couch flicking a knife open over and over for no reason.

[DigDug72]

Glad everyone's ok D! My cousin blew a hole through his foot in a ND incident, learned his lesson the hard way...

[tvenuto]

Maybe I am missing something, but why would anyone be loading, unloading, or dry-firing a firearm indoors?

Also, you should always function check a firearm that you've field stripped. Well if you depend on it to work you should, anyway.

[OldHoosier62]

Maybe I am missing something, but why would anyone be loading, unloading, or dry-firing a firearm indoors?

Most competitive shooters do dry-fire practice 2 to 3 hours per night and often more immediately before a match. We would dry-fire, practice magazine changes (with solid aluminum magazines so no chance of live ammo getting involved and to simulate the weight of full mags), drawing the pistol/revolver...almost every facet of a shooting match.

Don't know about now but in the old days a new pistol shooter on the Marine Corps team usually spent his first two weeks dry-firing only on the indoor range while his mentor helped correct any bad habits.

[Bloke]

G’day Evil,
I feel your pain! One Saturday morning in 1987, I had just finished hand loading a small batch of .338 Win Mag ammo. At the time I was hand loading for several calibres and used “Dummies” a case without powder or primer, just a projectile to re set the seating die for a particular projectile I’d used before.
Long story short I loaded this batch with a full load under a 250gr Nosler Petition. I used to cycled the finished rounds through the magazine in those days to save any heart ache in the field. Somehow, I managed to mix the dummy with the loaded rounds, upright in the tray and didn’t think or realise I hadn’t accounted for all 21 rounds, 1 dummy and 20 hand loads. The tray showed 20 rounds. I took the rifle to the safe and noticed it was cocked, I thought it was strange, but I didn’t lift the bolt and clear the chamber. I shouldered it, aimed through the closed window at a bird in my neighbours tree, took a steady hold, breathed out and squeezed the trigger. All **** broke loose, muzzle blast, recoil, shattered glass, burnt powder, this wasn’t supposed to happen, but it did! Through God’s mercy and kind grace no one was hurt. At the time my little ones were 1yr and 4yrs old and at home, as was my wife. I was mortified at what I’d done! How could this ever happen? I felt nauseous! Recounting the events of that day, I still feel sick and to this day I had not told anyone, primarily through embarrassment. What makes my experience different to yours is the fact that as I mounted the rifle and took aim something deep inside told me not to, but I did anyway. Count your blessings my friend as I did mine, don't beat yourself up, learn from the experience and move on. Let those without sin cast all the stones they like!
Best Regards,
Alex