Older German Folders are Gems

[JD Spydo]

In my overall knife collection I do collect other blades than Spyderco if you can believe that :rolleyes: I don't use older folders much anymore because the newer/better blade steels just seem to eclipse the older models.

But from a collector standpoint I'm finding that I'm really appreciating some of the older and more obscure German made folders. A few years back I had a good friend of mine give me a well made folder by a obscure German company called "WeidMannSheil">> I was impressed with the overall workmanship in the folders of that little known knife company.

There are other little known German knife companies I've put in my collection like "Hen & Rooster", Bulldog and J.A. Henckel. We all know about some of Germany's well known knife companies like Boker, Puma and F. Dick.

I'm just curious to know how many of you guys also collect and admire some of these little known German knife companies?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

German knives are some of the highest quality that there are. I like them. What most people don't know, though you and others on the forum probably do, is that Italy and the Czech Republic also produce good quality folders and fixed blades.

The Germans, Swiss, Italians, Czechs (German influence), French, Spanish, along with the Scandinavians (Swedish, Danish, Norwegien, Finnish) are world-class knife makers.

There is also a German company named OTTO MESSER (messer German for knife) which makes the Mercator "Black Kat/Cat" knives and other knives. The Germans invented or at least heavily mass produced the "Sod Buster" type (Case got their design from that) "Peasant Knives".

I wish Henckels still produced outdoor/hunting knives and folders. They mostly produce kitchen and cooking knives and shears nowadays. Their Pre 1960s production included a whole range of fixed blade and folding hunting and pocket knives including multi blades with locks and beautiful stag and wood handles.

[The Mastiff]

I have a couple "eye" brand folders with forged carbon steel that are great little performers. They sharpen very nicely. I have an older (70's ?) Italian style auto made in Germany by a company called "Othello" that is the best quality of my older Italian style autos and I'm pretty fond of it. Unlike most of the mid/lower grade autos it actually seems to have steel hardened above the high 40's to very low 50's and is carbon steel not cheap stainless.

I don't have anything from Germany newer than 10 years old though.

[Peter1960]

There is also a German company named OTTO MESSER (messer German for knife) which makes the Mercator "Black Kat/Cat" knives and other knives.

Your translation of "Messer" = "knife or knives" is rather perfect. But - and this is only a small but - Otto is a forename. The correct company name is OTTER-Messer and "OTTER" stands for the animal European otter (latin name: lutra lutra), which is also their company sign.
I don't know if you observed that Mercator knives are now also available with handles out of brass, a really nice knife!

[Evil D]

Can't say I have any experience here, other than when I was growing up guys would talk about "Solingen German steel" like it was forged by the gods. I also knew a guy who had this really crazy Nazi SS bayonet that had a self sharpening sheath....it was a hard sheath and it had ceramic pull through type rods on each side inside that the blade slid along every time you pulled it out or pushed it in. It was a cool idea I guess.

[JD Spydo]

Can't say I have any experience here, other than when I was growing up guys would talk about "Solingen German steel" like it was forged by the gods. I also knew a guy who had this really crazy Nazi SS bayonet that had a self sharpening sheath....it was a hard sheath and it had ceramic pull through type rods on each side inside that the blade slid along every time you pulled it out or pushed it in. It was a cool idea I guess.

It's interesting that you mention some of the higher technology that the World War II era Germans had>> because it was actually one of their scientists that came over to our side who helped propel the USA to put the first man on the moon. So with that being said I'm also assuming that the Germans at that time also must have been at the top of the game with metallurgy and machine tool technology as well.

I guess the main reason I've taken a liking to some of the older and to some extent even some of the more recent German designed knives is that I just really like their nostaligic style that they put into their great quality workmanship. it was Spyderco's uncompromising quest for quality that attacted me to them to begin with so it just stands to reason I as well as many of the rest of you I'm sure fully appreciate quality workmanship.

Again it's some of the more obscure and un-heard of German knife companies that have caught my eye. I've also for years had a great deal of respect for BOKER and I'm constantly looking for their older stuff at estate sales and garage sale. Bottom line you can't knock quality and you can't knock success.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

JD, an old timer who loves knives, steel, and history, he told me the Germans developed a very advanced, for the time, carbon nitriding technology and would coat some of their blades and munitions and rifle barrels in it and it made them extra tough and resistant to corrosion and such. I don't know much about it but I found that to be interesting.

[JD Spydo]

JD, an old timer who loves knives, steel, and history, he told me the Germans developed a very advanced, for the time, carbon nitriding technology and would coat some of their blades and munitions and rifle barrels in it and it made them extra tough and resistant to corrosion and such. I don't know much about it but I found that to be interesting.

Yeah I had an old machinist friend I used to work with tell me the same thing>> he also said they were making huge strides in the advancement of stainless and other corrosion resistant metals as well. Just like Nichola Tesla the Germans had a lot of technologies that the powers that be have certainly hidden from us for their own uses. At that time it seemed like Tesla and the German engineers were both making huge technological strides in almost the same era of time. Not sure if Tesla did as much with metal as he did with electrical and electronic inventions. But the Germans sure did a lot with technologies dealing with all sorts of metals during that time frame.

Again two of the German made folders I reallly like are "Weidmannsheil" and older Boker stuff. Also the Germans had super straight razors during the last century as well as knives in general>> and super good quality as well.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Regarding Boker, it seems, like Puma, and other brands, Boker has some that are made in Germany, and those are the best quality and also the most expensive, and other lines made in Asia and other places that are cheaper. Have you ever seen this one called the Bokermatic?

http://www.knifecenter.com/item/BO01BO7 ... -automatic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The claim is that it is not a true switchblade or stiletto knife and I think the mechanism is pretty cool.

On that website, however, there is a negative review:

" Although this knife opens and closes exactly as described, it is both clumsy and dangerous. Rotating the scale in opening requires a difficult position of your hand that takes all pressure off the scale while reaching your thumb to the butt end of the knife to get the slide button. The result is you can't hold the knife firmly when opening it. Second, once it is opened with the scale locked in place, your grip, especially with the edge down and your thumb on the spine, can release the blade accidentally, leaving you knifeless."

[JD Spydo]

Regarding Boker, it seems, like Puma, and other brands, Boker has some that are made in Germany, and those are the best quality and also the most expensive, and other lines made in Asia and other places that are cheaper. Have you ever seen this one called the Bokermatic?

http://www.knifecenter.com/item/BO01BO7 ... -automatic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The claim is that it is not a true switchblade or stiletto knife and I think the mechanism is pretty cool. "

As far as Switchblades go I've never really been a fanatic about them for a lot of reasons. Albeit the first automatic/switchblade knife I ever got that I thought was built with any significant quality was when I landed my first Benchmade model 1000 Spike>> it was the automatic version of the model 640 Boguszewski Spike model and I think many of you know how I loved Boguszewski's designs>> they are some of my all time favorite knife designs ever and I was sad to hear of his death about two years ago>> he truly was a master bladesmith and one super designer of great blades. Now I thought that it truly was a high quality automatic folder from top to bottom. I also got another automatic from Benchmade which was the model 2500 Mini Reflex model. I sold both of them to a really close friend of mine who still has them>> the point I'm making is that most switchblade/automatics most of the time are not well made knives at all and most of the ones people have ever showed me didn't even deploy all that fast anyway :rolleyes: . The SPYDERHOLE to me deploys just as fast if not faster than about any automatic I've used or encountered in the past few years. IF the Germans have superior automatic folders that's a new one on me because I never really knew of them being big in that area of the market.

But getting back to the subject of German made knives>> no I have never owned a German made automatic folder but it does sound interesting and I wouldn't mind to check one out just for curiosity sake if nothing else. I didn't even know that Boker ever made any automatics :confused: . I had heard that Switchblades got their start over in Italy from what I was told years ago. Most switchblades anyone who has come to me bragging about have mostly been pot metal, rickety junk>> I've never had any automatic that any biker or bar room tough guy ever showed me that had any significant quality at all. Most of the ones these types of guys admire are truly laughable from a quality standpoint. Which goes to show you that most so-called "tough guys" don't know a quality knife from a Rip-mart special :rolleyes:

Boker however is a cutlery company I've always had a great deal of respect for and it seems like they are innovative and constantly coming up with stuff like their ceramic knives which truly are some of the only ceramic knives that I really thought were worth buying. But again we're talking about the "Real McCoy" German made models and not that trash that they make down in Argentina or whereever that other factory is. I've also been super impressed with some of Boker's culinary blades>> especially those titanium coated ones which inhibit the growth of bacteria. And I've been told that their culinary blades will stand up under some really demanding cutting jobs with professional food handling.

Another great German company that I also have a ton of respect for is the Friedrick Dick Company also known as F. Dick Co. They are particulary famous for their top of the line Butcher steels and knife sharpening steels. I own about 10 of F. Dicks steels and I'm here to tell you they are the top of the line in that sector and I've been very impressed with their professional meat cutting knives and their professional culinary knives as welll.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Very cool and yeah the F Dick knives, I was looking at those. They are very well-made.

[JD Spydo]

Very cool and yeah the F Dick knives, I was looking at those. They are very well-made.

Yeah "F. Dick Company" is one of those great German companies that most people have never heard of and it's hidden right there in plain view. But professional meat cutters, chefs and other people in the culinary trades are well aware of them. I got all my F. Dick stuff through a wholesale restuarant supply house. They were extremely good to me price-wise and one day I'll get me some more of their great stuff.

I don't know if Wustof makes any folders or ever did make any like J.A. Henckel did>> but Wustof truly makes some great food and meat cutting knives themselves. Boker is great if you stick to their German made line up.

Like that "Weidmannsheil" company I do know that there are other small German knife companies out there and I was hoping some of you guys had some information to share about them. I know my buddy SKATENUT lives in Germany and I'm hoping that him and the other good German Brothers will chime in. Not to mention the terrific straight razors that are also made in Germany as well.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I'll resurrect this thread.

Check this video out:

https://youtu.be/H_N2zfjU9NM

They are a German factory making old style knives, those are some skilled workers. Look at the beautiful steel and handle materials and when they hand hammer the pins and bolsters on.

And here is a video review of the Mercator K55K folding knife:

https://youtu.be/e4WCleaPLPc

man that is a NICE blade! :)

Imagine if there was a Spyderco/Mercator collaboration?

[Squawk]

I have 2 Mercator K55K knives. They are sweet! But no competition to anything that Spyderco has to offer i'm afraid. Still a nice EDC Option regarding the 70g and the sturdy lockback. In the end, the Mercator design is already around for more than 100 years now, so that's not really surprising. Unfortunately, when it comes to german made knives, i must say i'm being disappointed more and more. For example look at Boker Treebrand manufactured knives. They are everything else but cheap, for the money you pay for most of them you can get high tier Taichung Spydercos or ZTs which are in my opinion just superior knives in every way - better steels, better ergos, less weight and a lot better quality. The last three knives i bought from boker were a Scout Cronidur, a Minos and a Flint - they all had defects of some kind and they are all sth. between 200$-350$. The Minos had no lockup and closed when pushing against the back of the blade, the Scout had a blade so far off Center it was actually rubbing against the liners and the Flints blade was extremely bad ground so the tip was way off to one side. Not that they aren't good knives per se; boker for example uses very nice materials on their traditional knives. It's just the level of craftsmanship that's lacking when comparing those to for example Spyderco knives looking at the price tag. And that's coming from someone who actually lives in germany and has to pay roundabout 100€ for a plain jane delica 4. ****, the Mamba has a retail price of even ~ 600€ for example. But there are really good custom knifemakers here in Germany, that's for sure!

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Thank you for that info and review, Squawk. What are some of the reasons why the German made knives have lessened in quality? I know the older Puma knives and companies such as Herbertz and Eickhorn were world famous for excellent quality steel knives and more. But I also see companies in both Europe and the USA having their "international brands" which are made in other places than the original native country.

By the way, did you know Fiskars is moving its headquarters to Poland, leaving Finland?

http://yle.fi/uutiset/fiskars_shifts_pr ... nd/8758835

http://yle.fi/uutiset/fiskars_to_lay_of ... ed/8874695

They claim it will be cheaper to have their production done in Poland than in Finland. I know they also have a lot of products such as scissors and garden tools and other items made in China, too.

Fiskars bought Gerber Legendary Blades years ago.

[JD Spydo]

I never ever had any experience with those Mercator knives you all mentioned but I have heard good things over at Bladeforums about them some time back.

Two not so well known brands of German knives I really like are ones I mentioned earlier>> one being Weidmannsheil and the other known as "Hen & Rooster. The Hen & Rooster knives are distributed by Frost Cutlery here in the USA but I have no idea who really makes them.

I had a Weidmannsheil Folder and Fixed blade both and I do wish I had kept them. A good friend of mine traded me a really nice Spyder for both of them. But if you ever stumble across a Weidmannsheil or even one of J. A. Henckel's older folders you would be well advised to at least check them out. I truly wish Spyderco would do some more German and Swiss collaborations at some point.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

JD, here is a related question for you: I notice there are cutlery making companies such as Hackman of Finland, and JA Henckels of Germany, that almost exclusively, now, produce kitchen and food-based knives, and no longer produce hunting, sporting, or combat knives, while years ago they did produce outdoors and hunting knives, as well as pocket knives. Why do you think they decided to make such a drastic change, when the market for sporting knives is still alive and well, world wide? Is it a cost issue or what?

Example: In the 1800s and 1900s and up to the 1970s, Henckels made some beefy folders that had great German steel blades and now they do not. Could it also be a politics issue, ie, the drastic anti knife bans in many nations feed into this?

[joannfavors]

I too agree with JD Spydo

[Squawk]

Thank you for that info and review, Squawk. What are some of the reasons why the German made knives have lessened in quality? I know the older Puma knives and companies such as Herbertz and Eickhorn were world famous for excellent quality steel knives and more. But I also see companies in both Europe and the USA having their "international brands" which are made in other places than the original native country.

By the way, did you know Fiskars is moving its headquarters to Poland, leaving Finland?

http://yle.fi/uutiset/fiskars_shifts_pr ... nd/8758835

http://yle.fi/uutiset/fiskars_to_lay_of ... ed/8874695

They claim it will be cheaper to have their production done in Poland than in Finland. I know they also have a lot of products such as scissors and garden tools and other items made in China, too.

Fiskars bought Gerber Legendary Blades years ago.

Hey, sorry for the late answer -

that's actually an interesting fact regarding Fiskars. I'll keep an eye on their products and how they change if they do... It's a good question you're asking. I think there are several sides to look at. One with the examples you gave - Puma, Herbertz, Eickhorn - they used to make excellent knives, but they didn't move on. They are still using the same kind of steels they did 30 years or longer ago. And they put the same steels in nearly every knife; so the only steels you get are 420, 440A, Solingen stainless (whatever that is, right now i'm trying this one in one of my mercators as EDC, i'll come back at you for that) and if you are happy 440C (but that's a minority of blades). That leading to three different kinds of companies which were all cream of the crop once: Those who primarily produce budget knives today (Puma, Herbertz, Eickhorn for example, there are more; i can buy chinese made knives at the same price point which blow those out of the water - that makes me sad), those who really still put a lot of effort in producing high quality traditional or tactical knives (e.g. Klaas Robert, Olbertz, Otter, Pohlforce etc.) and then there is Böker. Böker obviously started realising that other international companies are starting to become way more popular, so they started to look a little more what's going on on the international market. They don't only sell their own knives, but they are also the biggest distributor for Spyderco, Lionsteel and all the other big names here in Germany. And to stay competitive here with their own products, they raise the prices of international products astronomically. I think it's funny that Böker is starting to copy what Spydercos doing because they noticed how well it works for them. Good examples are that Böker always used 440C in every frakking product they produced. Okay, not the worst steel of all times, but now they are starting to sell "premium VG10" or "upgraded N690" or at the highest end "CPM S30V" and they are starting to go for a lot of collabs with custom knifemakers in their Plus lineup. So back to your question: I think it's kind of a matter of expectation. If i buy a german product, my expectations as a german are very high, because when i was young, "Made in Germany" still meant something. i think it's kinda the same with americans and Spyderco,ZT etc. The bigger problem IMO is, that either overall german products are not anymore as good as their reputation (there are still exceptions though) and that it's just too expensive to manufacture for example knives here. If Böker would like to get to a consistent quality level like the one of Spyderco, i just think that they would have to double their prices which would just push them out of competition. I guess that's why they startet producing overseas as well. Those are just my thoughts. My times up, i'll be back at the topic soon...

[clovisc]

You can still pick up a new Mercator "black cat" knife on Ebay for $25 -- same excellent design the allied troops discovered and brought home from Germany in droves after WW2.