Practical vs. Tactical?

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awa54
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Practical vs. Tactical?

#1

Post by awa54 »

Before I even start, this isn't a Right vs. Left debate, it's about *knife design* and *knife uses*. If you have a political opinion, or wish to link your opinions to a social or political platform, then please refrain from posting that portion of your response in this thread!


OK... So, I find that my preference in cutting tools leans toward functionality, with aesthetics coming in a close second. A clean design, neat materials or a novel approach all play in to my overall enjoyment of a knife, but solid construction, a comfortable handle and above all else good cutting ability really make or break the knife for me.

In my opinion that's practical.

Now for the tactical; There are certainly *actual* martial arts knives available that are tailored for use in a particular discipline, but I'm talking about knives that are pretty much just EDC knives, but which feature a military look (or name), and aggressive styling, often characterized by faceted blade grinds and sharp angles and most often presented with black, OD, tan or camo handles. IMO these are "so-called tactical" knives.

To me these knives usually give up too much functionality for the look of B@d@ss...

Then there's the sub-category of endorsed designs, again it seems to me like a great number of these fall in to the faux-fighting knife category, where the lethal *looking* design, black finish and famous design collaborator's name etched on the blade are the the only "tactical" parts of the knife.

For example, I have a CRKT Heiho that looks cool, has a great assisted opening system and a trick double-locking system, as well as a celebrity design endorsement. This knife has a comparatively thick blade grind, making it a so-so slicer/slasher, a long fairly delicate point, making it a poor hard use stabbing blade and a handle design which makes anything but slashing or pull cuts a bad idea unless you have solid martial arts training with blade hold techniques. Not a very good package of features for a tactical knife IMO... but at the same time all the design cues that went into making the blade look like a weapon, make it a terrible general use blade as well, so (for me at least) as anything but an aesthetic design it fails... it fails both the "tactical"/defense user and the "gentleman" who are the intended audience for a "Gentleman's Tactical" knife like this (yeah, I know that's an oxymoron already). If I had to pick a blade to carry for defensive purposes, it would probably be my Sage 1 or Sage 3, they both deploy quickly and intuitively, have a secure grip for stabbing and don't force a grip change to switch to slashing. To be clear, I'm not an accomplished martial artist, nor have I ever had to defend myself with a knife, so this is just my un-trained opinion.

That brings me to the shortcomings of my general use knife as a weapon... the tip on the Sage isn't really up to hard stabbing, and the overall blade strength isn't intended for violent use/abuse as could happen in a real knife combat, but for an average citizen to fend off an attacker who isn't also a trained combatant, I'd bet good money that it's quite sufficient.

If advertising for another knife I own is to be believed, it's a go-to choice for various *actual* tactical forces. The knife in question isn't at all styled (with the exception of having a modern tanto point for strength) and the only overt "tacticallity" is the fact that it's got a black handle, sheath and blade and the fact that it comes with a sheath that's well suited to attachment on a military style load bearing harness system. What makes this a great "tactical" knife also makes it a perfect heavy duty camp knife; a comfortable grippy handle with a lanyard hole and functional but unobtrusive guard, a sturdy blade that can withstand use as an impromptu prybar or light duty hatchet, plus sheath and handle materials that resist the elements and abuse. To me this is the best of the "Tactical" inspired genre, and a knife that stands on its own merits, without any big name endorsement or over the top pseudo-military styling. I don't own one, but I feel the same way about the Spyderco Military, it's just a big, sturdy folder designed to do tough jobs without breaking, sure it comes in black on black and camo, but the design is all about function and Spyderco tradition.

I'd be really interested in hearing what members of the military, police and active martial artists have to say about this subject, I'm suspecting that many of them choose a knife by how well it fits their hand and if they think the blade will withstand the intended use, rather than if it's endorsed/designed by a famous martial artist, and comes in all black.

Also for those who really enjoy the designs of actual fighting knives, but aren't martial artists, what do you do with your "tactical" knives, do they get used for mundane chores around the house, or on a walk in the woods, or are they strictly safe queens?
-David

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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#2

Post by SpyderNut »

Good post, David. I have several knives (including several non-Spyderco) that are generally classified as "tactical." I purchased them for various reasons--the least being the "tactical" component. Most of mine rarely see any use, let alone pocket time, simply because I don't need a tactical knife in my line of work (desk jockey/pencil pusher). :) I get what you're saying in terms of design. In other words, I pay far more attention to the holistic composition of the design vs. what the design is actually designed for. (E.g. I will never need the Whale Rescue Blade or Autonomy, but I plan to eventually purchase both because I appreciate the designs). Most often I do just fine with a D'fly and Ladybug anyway.
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#3

Post by Mic1 »

I buy knives that fit both rolls usually. Manix 2 or Para 2 both are good examples of great EDC work horse knives and self defense knives. I don't know much about knife fighting but I am pretty sure my Manix would do well as a tactical knife. Most guys would say Tanto knives are of little practical use. I would totally disagree I used a Chris Reeve Tanto for a long time at work and in my opinion it was just as useful as any other knife. The tip in fact was particularly useful as an exacto style knife and very strong for stabbing and light prying. Even the Puukko is another example of a practical knife that doubles as a tactical knife in the finnish military ask the Russians (hakkaa päälle).

It really is all marketing, appearance and the buyer's intended use. If I put pink scales on my Manix and told people it was for breast cancer it would cease to be threatening I put black scales with the punisher skull on it and it's a tactical knife. I would say the only truly tactical knife would be daggers they really have no other primary purpose but to kill.
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#4

Post by TomAiello »

Most of the actual military guys I know use "sharpened pry bar" knives, which they use as "pretty much everything but a knife." Simple, thick, fixed blade, nothing to break or gum up.

But those guys aren't using the knives for actual combat, and they aren't selecting them for that.

Maybe there needs to be a category of "martial arts" knives that is separate from "tactical"?
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#5

Post by Evil D »

Well, I think what you're pointing out is that not everyone owns/buys/carries and even uses knives with all out performance in mind. Not everyone needs or expects the absolute highest possible slicing ability from their knives when all they really do on a daily basis is open the mail and cut a sandwich in half. There's nothing wrong with that either, those people just get their enjoyment from their knives in different ways than you or I do.

However, there is also a gray area between the two, where if you do your homework you will find "tactical" knives that are quite "practical". A good example might be the Yojimbo 2, where it was designed for self defense but the nature of a wharnie blade means it also does a great job as a utility blade. Other knives like the Military, while they may not slice as well as some customs or reground knives, will do a fine job on any practical job you need to do despite being designed for tactical use.

Just the other day I was at my local knife shop playing around with a Warrior, and I could think of a dozen uses I could own that knife for and none of them involve fighting or self defense. I think if you really look into this topic deep enough, you're going to find that the best tactical designs are also by nature the most practical, while the "mall ninja" knives out there are made simply for aesthetics and performance takes a back seat.
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#6

Post by awa54 »

TomAiello wrote:Most of the actual military guys I know use "sharpened pry bar" knives, which they use as "pretty much everything but a knife." Simple, thick, fixed blade, nothing to break or gum up.

But those guys aren't using the knives for actual combat, and they aren't selecting them for that.

Maybe there needs to be a category of "martial arts" knives that is separate from "tactical"?

A friend is a Silat practitioner, he showed me a traditional Indonesian blade he got from his teacher, it's essentially a smaller, stouter machete with a hooked pommel to keep it from sliding out of your hand under hard swinging forces. Not a very marketable tactical knife, but if you think about its capability against an unarmored opponent it's a terrifying weapon. Would probably clear brush like a champ too!
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#7

Post by Blerv »

Some of the most practical blades have been historically used for martial tasks (golok, kukri, axe, etc). It's a system of adaptation, something humans excel at :).

Most martial artists focus more on the art than the martial because it's more a fitness hobby than fighting or killing (which isn't a bad thing). A tactical product really is designed for combat and since the majority of it's market are not enlisted in the military and thus adhere to common law (again, not a bad thing) I don't feel they are as necessary as a comfortable/safe cutting tool.

Is a Yojimbo2 a more efficient "killing tool" than a Delica? Absolutely. Would having one instead of the other impact your survival? I'm not completely sold on the concept. So much grey goes into saving one's life that can't simply be fixed with an online shopping cart. There are factors of training, physics, anticipation/surprise, and pure dumb luck. Still, if the design speaks to you I think you should certainly buy one! (it sure can't hurt).

In most situations though having a knife/gun for defense is like having a .50 cal for disposing of rats in the basement. It's for 10/10ths of violent encounters. You can't really open it and wait for things to get worse (brandishing) and certainly can't go sticking people who get ornery in a bar. If the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail. Tool-reliant defense not only can open you up legally to all sorts of problems but can give a false sense of security...like dropping your hands when someone is 2 feet from you with his hands up.

But yea. Tactical knives look/are very cool. They are fun to collect and I have quite a few. I'm sure for people who are professionally combative without fear of court appearances badder is often "better". I just hope I don't have to rely on slashing/penetration performance to save my life; I've never been a huge fan of math. :o
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#8

Post by awa54 »

Evil D wrote: I think if you really look into this topic deep enough, you're going to find that the best tactical designs are also by nature the most practical, while the "mall ninja" knives out there are made simply for aesthetics and performance takes a back seat.
This was one of the things I was hoping to get at... I'm guessing that most of the people who buy (as opposed to being issued) a blade that might actually be used in combat are *not* buying either $20 "SEAL, Tactical, Special Forces, Survival, Fighting Knife FREE SHIPPING!" Ebay specials from China *or* $600 monobloc Titanium frame lock folders. They probably aren't carrying beautifully polished 8" blade, sub-hilt bowies with stacked leather handles and blackout fittings either.

Evil D wrote: Just the other day I was at my local knife shop playing around with a Warrior, and I could think of a dozen uses I could own that knife for and none of them involve fighting or self defense. I think if you really look into this topic deep enough, you're going to find that the best tactical designs are also by nature the most practical, while the "mall ninja" knives out there are made simply for aesthetics and performance takes a back seat.
The interesting thing about the "mall ninja" stuff is its corollary the "office warrior"... Those beautiful, hi-tech "combat folders" we see from most good knife makers these days, despite having more technical merit and better ergonomics than the cheap copies that they spawn, still feature styling and design details that don't add *functional *value for most EDC users.
The full custom, engraved, damascus & mammoth ivory, combat folders must be the "Corner Office Shogun" model? ;)

Blerv wrote: In most situations though having a knife/gun for defense is like having a .50 cal for disposing of rats in the basement. It's for 10/10ths of violent encounters. You can't really open it and wait for things to get worse (brandishing) and certainly can't go sticking people who get ornery in a bar. If the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail. Tool-reliant defense not only can open you up legally to all sorts of problems but can give a false sense of security...like dropping your hands when someone is 2 feet from you with his hands up.
I used to entertain the idea of self defense with a knife, but after some Aikido training, I pretty much aspire to either defuse a confrontation or not be where the first punch falls if it comes to that. I still have a knife on my person pretty much any time I'm dressed, but it would be a last resort in any confrontation. At home I have a bokken, that I'm confident I can KO any intruder with if required.
-David

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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#9

Post by bdblue »

I use my knives to cut things- slice fruit, sandwich, steak, open packages or envelopes, cut string, rope, cloth, tape, packing materials, occasionally carve a small piece of wood or plastic, things like that. I generally don't do much serious stabbing but I do use a keen point a lot. I like a blade that is not too thin so I'm not worried about it easily breaking. It seems that "tactical" designs provide these qualities more than "average" designs. Some of my favorites are the Benchmade 913 Stryker, Spyderco PM2 and Spyderco Manix 2. I don't know anything about knife fighting so I don't know what qualities would be best for that. My knives may or may not be good for fighting, I don't know and it really doesn't matter to me. Today I was carrying a DLC Manix 2 XL, which looks pretty tactical, but it worked pretty well to slice up my sandwich at lunch.
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#10

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Well here is an example of a knife that would fit both categories: The Spyderco Native with the swedge at the top edge. To some that feature is tactical, but this knife is also practical as a daily cutting tool. Personally, I wish they had kept that particular blade design along with the new more "practical" one.
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#11

Post by Wanimator »

May I remind you the most practical and least weapon-like designs have been some of the biggest killing tools.
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#12

Post by paladin »

Impressed with the SD design philosophy behind the Civilian family...

Intended for the "untrained" in edged weaponry tactics, relying upon gross movements that most humans instinctively fall back upon in high tension/close contact encounters...

Own & Carry a SE Matriarch 2 & Sprint FFG Matriarch...

The Matriarch's can do pretty much any cutting task a regular Endura can, especially the Sprint FFG Mother...

Stabbing/plunging would largely be out of the question, of course...dicing & chopping would be somewhat constrained unless you were able to clear the tip off the edge of your cutting surface...

Other than those couple of limitations, these blades seem to fill both utility & tactical roles well.

And the Mat's have good belly & the recurve S can be quite helpful with control of draw/push cuts as they tend to "gather" the material into a sweet slicing spot along the edge...a case can be made for the real practicality of these models-- surpassing their more utilitarian-designed cousins in certain tasks..

Another consideration, however, has to be how "evil" :eek: any hawkbill or recurve S blade looks to NKP...and the Civi family would garner a lot of unwarranted perceived malicious intent in that regard... :(

good thread :) :spyder:
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#13

Post by Dr. Snubnose »

Basically it boils down to just a few things....There are Practical Knives that can function as Tactical Knives and Tactical knives that can function as Practical Knives....but all this is based on our own perceptions of what those terms actually mean. Most often the best fighting knives and SD knives are those specifically design for those purposes, that have been battle tested and proven effective over a period of time. Most of the knives people are mentioning in this thread, are not knives I would want in my hand for self-defense when it all hits the fan. It just goes to shows how little people actually know about bladed weapons and self defense and that includes both Knife Makers and Martial Artist's alike. If your trying to make a distinction between Practical (well made designed knives) and Tactical (Basically Crap with a little hype on top)..well that's a different story...and the title of this thread should be Practical well Made knives Vs Tactical Crap....Doc:)
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#14

Post by demoncase »

I think part of the issue is the use (and misuse) of the word 'Tactical'- it now encompasses anything with vague military styling or colouration.
I recall joking with some shooting friends that 'Tactical' meant spray painting something black (or latterly "Coyote Tan"), bolting on an RIS rail somewhere useless then jacking the price up 12%. ;)

All Practical knives could be tactical- any blade you have with you at a time of desperate need and gets you out of a jam is tactically useful.

Are all knives marketed as 'tactical' practical, on the flipside?...Absolutely not. If a folder is crenellated like a castle keep and has a blade shape like a Klingon b'atleth, are you likely to be carrying it when you need it?- Probably not....And you're back to square one.

I also know precisely three-fiths-of-nuthin' about knife fighting (and frankly, never wish to have to find out)....If you are consciously going into a combat situation then I would expect that knife choice is one thing, but a long way second to stuffing your pockets with double-ought buck ;)

I will freely admit that my inner mall ninja makes me love certain knives regardless of practicality and happily buy 'tacticool' stuff. *Looks guiltily at the MOLLE bedecked 'tactical laptop case' I use for work* But that just keeps money moving in the economy, so it can't be all bad , right? :D
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#15

Post by The Deacon »

Given its size, not too many folks would consider the Schrade LB-1 pictured below to be tactical, or even practical as anything other than a keychain knife. Yet a lot of the COs, and some of the civilians, that I worked with back in the early 90's carried them as their "work knife". DOCS imposed a 2" blade limit for knives carried inside the facility, but expected the COs to be equipped to at least attempt to cut down an inmate that hung up.
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#16

Post by twinboysdad »

My take...tactical folding knives mean 3 things: 1) can be opened with one hand 2) has a locking mechanism 3) has a pocket clip. The knife can be accessed quickly, while having the other hand occupied, and will stay locked under reasonable strenuous use. You will notice I said nothing about fighting. It could be used for an emergency cut whilest completing any job that has your other hand tied up. Most real operators use their knives for things like that. An even higher percentage never wield a knife in any fight scenario. All the classic designs (Endura, Delica, Sebenza, BM 710, ect) are capable of 1,2, and 3 from my list.

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Re: Practical vs. Martial?

#17

Post by RexGig0 »

The practicality of the Spyderco Gunting, in my hand, as nothing to do with the martial art, Modern Arnis, of the designer, Bram Frank. Structurally, my hand must be a close match with Bram's, because no folder I have ever handled is a better fit for me, in forward or reverse grip, edge-in or edge-out. (To be clear, Bram does not teach edge-in techniques!) I also love the contoured pocket clip that contributes to the gripping area, even though I have no intention of performing the technique that the divot in the clip is designed to facilitate, during a defensive confrontation.

I would like the Gunting if it had no ramp. The serrations and squared-off tip of the ramp could be "dremeled" away, and left rounded and smooth, with just enough metal to leave the hole preserved, and I would still love the rest of the knife.

So, though the Gunting was one of Spyderco's martial-designed blades, it is very practical.

Other martial-designed Spyderco knives that are very practical, in my opinion, are the Ronin and Yojimbo collaborations with Michael Janich, which I also really like. I do not own as many Ronins as Dr. Snubnose, but I do have a lifetime supply.

Hmm, I did not use the T-word at all! ;)
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Going into harm's way, with blade in hand.

#18

Post by RexGig0 »

I did this one time, in nearly thirty-two years (and still counting) of big–city policing. I used a non-Spyderco Karambit to cut bungie cords securing the rear doors of a stolen van. A karambit can be used in the extended grip to hook something, and then cut on the pull stroke, so that is what I did. I then retracted the karambit into the normal "reverse" grip, which allowed the hand holding the karambit to act as the support hand for the pistol, because the firearm, if available, IS the weapon of choice. I could not imagine wanting to start an armed encounter with a blade as the primary weapon, in any realistic scenario I can imagine in domestic law enforcement or private citizen self-defense.

For what it is worth, I am a lefty with karambits, and carry my "primary" pistol on my right hip, so nothing was compromised in the above-described scenario. (I write lefty, and throw righty; pistol shooting os something I can fumble about as easily with either hand.)
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#19

Post by twinboysdad »

You must be the same Rex from TPI? Good bumping into you here sir
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Re: Practical vs. Tactical?

#20

Post by awa54 »

I'm not surprised by the responses I see coming in, I was guessing that most Spyderco enthusiasts would be *cutting tool* users, rather than self-imagined ninja assassins ;)

The opinions on *tactical looking* and *advertised as tactical* knives are also pretty much what I'd hoped I would see, a mix of sensible approaches to what any knife, or knife user, whether "tactical" or "plain vanilla" can be expected to do... but with the caveat that edgy styling can make a design attractive, so buy it if you like it!

Seems like most of us here got past our Rambo/Gil Hibben phases some time in our teens...
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