The big bad corporations you seem to fear are the absolute lifeblood of this country. No successful country can run without industry. The reason they leave is not greed as your cheap paper back novels would have you believe. It's the stifling government regulations the huge corporat tax which does nothing but stop growth and innovative. You want to pic up your moral sword and go to war start with China. I never hear the Dems screaming at the UN about China and there pollution or human rights. What's funny is your so worried about corporations having so much power but you're more than glad to take all that money and power and put it into the government what makes them any different than a corporation. In China the government has almost unlimited power and controls industry how's that working out for the average Joe in China or North Korea remember the USSR or a less harsh example of your grand social experiment Greece. How about the health care corporations who are making money hand over fist now with the new law think there were some dirty Dems hands in that. Ireland and other nations seem to be quite happy to have industry and jobs in there country ever stop to think why. Look I get it you went to university or whatever you read a few books in Philosophy you have this whole intellectual superiority thing great. Just tell me why none of the Democratic Party bigs participate in what they preach. They are as opulent as any republican just as wasteful and charitable and on the boards of and share holders if large corporations. Your naïve if you think they give a rat about you more than the next election or news cycle.
My parting political thought:what rights would you give up for free health care free utilities free food where would you draw the line.
I would give up none not modified or watered down not one at any price. If you would we will never see eye to eye.
awa54 wrote:hey Mic, can we shake (figuratively) and agree to go back to talking about something we agree about (Spydercos are great knives)?
I have been thinking how to answer this diplomatically or honestly.
So here goes. We certainly can have civil discussions on here about everything else but politics. We will even probably agree on a few things.Just know that I truly deeply love this country and the ideals it was founded on. As much as my own flesh and blood. I also believe with every fiber of my being your politics fly in the face of those very ideals and are as corrosive to the economic and moral fabric of this nation as salt water to carbon steel. Which means it not only threatens the country I love with ruin but also my own family and friends very well being and freedom. With that said I suggest we refrain from further comment on here about politics. We will never ever see eye to eye on it.
You only seem to see the "D" that you perceive in front of my name.
I didn't go to college. I put my pants on one leg at a time just like you. I work 40+ hours a week to afford a shabby 850ft2 apartment. I own an 18 year old car that I do much of the work on. I live in a state where the vast majority of the politicians do as they are intended and represent the will of their constituency and I have voted for Republicans, Independents and third party candidates in my state when I felt that they were more in touch with the needs of my community. I freely admit that no party in the US has a truly clean record of acting only in the interest of the citizens they represent. However, the concept of letting go of the reigns and letting the market run our country is one I can only see causing the wholesale gutting of a country that I love as much as you do. You seem to hate me and all that I stand for, but I still want this country to provide *every* citizen an environment where they are offered a leg up on success and I am willing to pay into the system of government to assure that this continues to happen.
I'm not a Communist, nor have I ever even gotten close to Greece.
I wouldn't give up any rights for "free" health care and would expect to pay for it just like I have payed in to Social Security (which I'm not expecting to receive, since some in government seem set on tearing it down and giving *my* money to private interests), but I still believe that with the right changes in how our system is administrated all Americans can have a better level of health care than we have now and not bankrupt us individually or as a nation, it will take work and compromise, but it isn't impossible.
I think exploitation of cheap labor and off-shoring of pollution and environmental destruction is as big an issue as any we face... I think NAFTA F'd the US over and that businesses of all types are essential to the future success of the USA, however I still think that if you siphon off massive amounts of capital, figuratively s**t all over the land and people who have helped you succeed in your business endeavor and try with all your might to keep from paying tax to that same country then you do not deserve to be allowed to do business here.
Remember, corporations are only slightly democratic (votes from stockholders for board members and occasional policy measures), whereas our government is mostly democratic if it works as intended. This is the difference and the reason that I will keep advocating for democratically elected government however dysfunctional, over plutocracy.
I have no idea why you think that the big money people and corps will have any mercy for you if they are left without restriction, but I suggest that you read a little history to see what unchecked corporate (or governmental, or royal) power has wrought in the past. If you think you can stand up to a world without rule of law, then you will soon find that there is a harder nastier, greedier, or more desperate person out there willing to kill you for what you have, no matter how tough you think you are.
If your attitude is to let the strongest/richest individuals or companies take control of this country, then I think you have missed the point of our Constitution and of society at large and if that is the case, I guess I don't want to shake and move on, as I can only assume that you are an anarchist and mean to harm much that I would preserve that is good and just in this world.
I happen to be a very moral person and try my best to treat everyone I meet as I would hope to be treated, with kindness and fairness, but I am willing to go back on that if individuals prove to me that they are not deserving of that respect. I do this of my own free will, not because of a perceived threat of damnation or of reward for lip service to my "superiors". I try to take the world as it comes and make the best of it with what can actually be done within the scope of possibility. I know that absolutes do not exist in reality and strive to make peace with all the compromise that entails... Despite my constant self-criticism and my wish to do better in all things, I sleep well at night knowing that I am a good person.
I sincerely hope that you are able to live a good life on whatever terms you choose.
Corporations don't have the power to tax me or to incarcerate me. They don't have a military or legal system an IRS the power to search and seizure of property etc etc. The abuse of that scares me far more than a corporation. I live in Illinois I have seen how these policies work first hand. Companies leaving people out of work wages through the roof high cost of living high unemployment back to back governors D and R in jail. I live with these policies I see there effects. We have high taxes and we're broke. And we the people are expected to once again bail out the politicians with more taxes.
Mic1 wrote:The big bad corporations you seem to fear are the absolute lifeblood of this country. No successful country can run without industry.
Industry and big corporations are not the same thing.
On average, 70% of the economic growth in modern economies comes from small and medium sized businesses (less than 150 employees). The big corporations who shape most of our laws and regulations work to stifle this growth because it allows them to squash competitors before they become large enough to compete.
Why do you suppose our latest "health care reforms" have basically eliminated small medical practices, forcing doctors to become employees of the big corporations who lobbied for these "reforms"?
awa54 wrote:Remember, corporations are only slightly democratic (votes from stockholders for board members and occasional policy measures), whereas our government is mostly democratic if it works as intended.
When was the last time our government worked "as intended"? And whose intentions are those?
awa54 wrote:Remember, corporations are only slightly democratic (votes from stockholders for board members and occasional policy measures), whereas our government is mostly democratic if it works as intended.
When was the last time our government worked "as intended"? And whose intentions are those?
That's the ongoing struggle isn't it?
hard to make something better by destroying it though... especially when the foundation is such a good one!
awa54 wrote:hard to make something better by destroying it though... especially when the foundation is such a good one!
"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher."
Antoine de Saint Exupery, Terre des Hommes 1939
Imperfectly, translated, that's something like "Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
I think that we are much more likely to achieve perfection in government through taking things away than through adding more.
SpyderEdgeForever wrote:It is sortof like the oil barons. Mankind could have had working nuclear fusion decades ago but what incentive or motivation is there for a man or group of men who rake in billions of dollars to help fund and produce the self-perpetuating energy source that would make their oil fortunes obsolete? I can already hear the "oh come on that sounds like conspiracy stuff" but its basic common sense. Once a bureaucracy is created the bureacrats will do whatever it takes to keep themselves in power. What incentive would they have to go against the grain of that?
Pardon me if this is a bit too much on the political side.
Historically, this is exactly what happened to Tesla when he invented a method of giving free energy to everyone. A big energy tycoon ruined him and used the government as a patsy.
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)
Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)
