man arrested (NY) for carrying a UK Pen Knife response

[awa54]

Mic, your MD friend/client sounds like a great guy! Many wealthy people are fantastic good hearted people, that in no way changes the fact that without some overarching framework to direct funds where they are needed (government) society breaks down... I can't begin to fathom the logic that says those with means shouldn't be expected to pay a proportionate amount to maintain our institutions and infrastructure.

If your MD friend was born in Nicaragua, where would he be now? If his drive to become a doctor was strong enough, he would probably come here. Who, if not those who have the strength and good fortune to succeed will lead this country forward?

"I got mine and I'm keeping it" doesn't work if we want a future. I am willing to pay more in tax than I do now to have this country reflect that humanistic view, why aren't many of the top earners willing to do that? If that sort of attitude continues to spread we will be entering back into a defacto caste system, where the services that normal people have access to are poor or non-existent and the "good life" is only to be had within gated communities or on private estates... already the infrastructure in my state is failing in some areas and without a will to pay for the repairs it will just get worse, I can only offer a small amount more before I can't pay for my *very* modest lifestyle, there are some who could forgo a third (or fourth, etc.) home or additional luxury car and easily pay more in tax... that isn't really a terrible hardship from my perspective.

Ultimate personal freedom and functional society are anathema. Not all humans are good, kind, educated, disciplined or smart enough to do the right thing without a framework of rules and a system to administer and enforce those rules. We need to grow up and face our *societal* obligations as well as our personal ones if we want to remain a functional nation.

Name for me one time in history when great power or wealth left unchecked has not overstepped its place in some way and ultimately fallen.

[awa54]

I could write a book on the charitable actions I have personally witnessed "rich" people do over the years.Not just there money but there free time which they usually have less of than most people. You are way off base with what you think you know. What you know about the "rich" would not even fill a Thimble.

I personally don't consider a well-off doctor or lawyer "rich", they are well to do for sure but it takes multiple millions in net worth to cross that line in my book. By the way, I was also a contractor in a past part of my life and worked for many doctors, lawyers and business people, many of whom are friends and who I respect greatly for their achievements. That does not excuse them from paying taxes.

I am personally well acquainted with several billionaires, sorry to burst your bubble. While I don't move in their circles, I do know quite a bit about them as people and a fair amount about their giving as well... Charitable giving is admirable and supports many good things in our world, but building highways, waste water plants and public schools in places that aren't within the bright sphere of a wealthy person's charity is what societal obligation is about.

What would the lawyer have done with his money if his daughter was still alive? I applaud his response to human pain and his effort to lessen the suffering of others, but that doesn't give him a free pass to ignore the rest of the machinery of society. Just the same as you and I aren't excused just because we could use more money in our pockets. Greed is a survival instinct for the individual, charity is a survival instinct for a society, government is a way to force charity and distribute the resources where needed, so that society continues.

[Mic1]

Mic, your MD friend/client sounds like a great guy! Many wealthy people are fantastic good hearted people, that in no way changes the fact that without some overarching framework to direct funds where they are needed (government) society breaks down... I can't begin to fathom the logic that says those with means shouldn't be expected to pay a proportionate amount to maintain our institutions and infrastructure.

If your MD friend was born in Nicaragua, where would he be now? If his drive to become a doctor was strong enough, he would probably come here. Who, if not those who have the strength and good fortune to succeed will lead this country forward?

"I got mine and I'm keeping it" doesn't work if we want a future. I am willing to pay more in tax than I do now to have this country reflect that humanistic view, why aren't many of the top earners willing to do that? If that sort of attitude continues to spread we will be entering back into a defacto caste system, where the services that normal people have access to are poor or non-existent and the "good life" is only to be had within gated communities or on private estates... already the infrastructure in my state is failing in some areas and without a will to pay for the repairs it will just get worse, I can only offer a small amount more before I can't pay for my *very* modest lifestyle, there are some who could forgo a third (or fourth, etc.) home or additional luxury car and easily pay more in tax... that isn't really a terrible hardship from my perspective.

Ultimate personal freedom and functional society are anathema. Not all humans are good, kind, educated, disciplined or smart enough to do the right thing without a framework of rules and a system to administer and enforce those rules. We need to grow up and face our *societal* obligations as well as our personal ones if we want to remain a functional nation.

So let me get this straight your liberal state cannot afford its own infrastructure I wonder why! But if only those rich jerks would just pay for it just a little more this one time all will be better. Ya till next time and the time after that. I live in Illinois I know how this works trust me.

Name for me one time in history when great power or wealth left unchecked has not overstepped its place in some way and ultimately fallen.

I live in a small suburban neighborhood I think I am living the good life. I dont get your brand of crazy.
HOW MUCH SHOULD HE GIVE HOW MANY CENTS OF EACH DOLLAR WHEN HAS HE PAID HIS SUPPOSED DEBT TO SOCIETY FOR THE CRIME OF BEING SUCCESSFUL. 48% 50% 75% HOW MUCH WHEN IS IT ENOUGH. Where is the line. Not a hardship in your opinion who the **** are you to tell them what their portion should be because it suits you. Do you realize the personal sacrifices they make the fact if he has a bad day or screws up someone dies! He get sued for millions and potentially loses everything. Its called risk v reward. I dont give a rat about what you personally think is a hardship its pretty easy to say when its not your money your sacrifice your risk. SO ANSWER ME WHEN IS IT ENOUGH HOW MUCH. The answer is never with you never enough more more more. You treat it like they should live like you pay everything over what you need to live and still put in double the effort. Again this is just your feelings of jealousy and intellectual superiority.

As for your last comment it's a good thing we have the left to point our moral compass and remind us of our social obligations as they see them. Where would we be without them. O wait hold on I know its called charity,religion, kindness of you heart. Its does not feel so good when you're forced and threatened with punishment to do so.

So to recap

How much is enough.
Who pays for all this social justice when even at 100% tax on the rich you cant pay our bills! Do they have a welfare for countries?

[Mic1]

government is a way to force charity and distribute the resources where needed, so that society continues.

Thats it right there that's exactly the heart of this matter "force" me to pay for what you think is right. "force" me to think your way because if I dont ............ well then I am one of those names again right racist, hater whatever. And you will "force" me anyway you can to fall in line with your way of thinking. Funny who sounds like the bully the intolerant control. Not very open minded or liberal after all.

[Mic1]

There are 492 billionaires in the United States currently according to Forbes magazine. So let's say they all give you 200% tax this year. It still does not cover a year of debt. 984 billion your still way short.

[awa54]

How much is enough? I'd say that a few percent more than I pay from my sub 40k income would do fine, or even eliminating some of the loopholes that allow people with good accountants to pay minimal tax. I in no way wish to pauper your MD friend, or even the Koch Bros.

Now I ask you; HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH, HOW MANY BILLIONS DOES ONE HUMAN NEED? WHEN WILL THE BILLIONAIRES STOP AMASSING MORE AND MORE WEALTH? See, shouty goes both ways

You are only reading what you want to in my posts, I have no major axe to grind with your MD friend, I still believe that he should keep a very substantial part of his earnings, but if he (and the rest of us) want to live in a functional nation populated by healthy, educated humans who drink clean water and eat safe food, drive on well maintained roads, go to excellent universities and have good jobs, then somebody darn well has to pay for the framework that makes this all possible and who better to put in a few additional percent to ensure that this can continue than those who have benefited the most from this framework?

By the way, Corporations are *not* people, but the ones that are profitable also benefit from the infrastructure and societal framework that exists in the US and therefore need to pay taxes to continue to experience those benefits. No.Free.Lunch.

What you seem to be missing here is that the "rich" didn't magically get their money from nowhere, hard work, good business sense and innovation played a huge part in many cases, but ultimately the wealth came from "the system" and those who siphon off *excessive* amounts of wealth from the system are only making things better for themselves. You make buildings for people to use, by doing this you add value and hopefully are compensated appropriately for your work, the risk taker at the top tier of the company you work for earns much more than you (or at least ought to!), but how much more? There's the rub, I think that there is a ceiling that has been breached by the rewards that the risk takers at the highest levels are reaping these days (probably not your boss and definitely not mine!), you seem to think that they should be able to write their own paycheck and the workers and society under them should just take what is being offered and say "thank you sir may I have another"... again I ask you, when in history has great power or wealth, left unchecked turned out to be good for society at large? when the rules don't prevent it the powerful will usually take all they can, this isn't good for you or me, trickle-down as the name always implied, is just a trickle from the reservoir.

[awa54]

government is a way to force charity and distribute the resources where needed, so that society continues.

Thats it right there that's exactly the heart of this matter "force" me to pay for what you think is right. "force" me to think your way because if I dont ............ well then I am one of those names again right racist, hater whatever. And you will "force" me anyway you can to fall in line with your way of thinking. Funny who sounds like the bully the intolerant control. Not very open minded or liberal after all.

This is why both you and I get to vote! Remember without rules the biggest bully on the playground wins...

Societies have existed in human culture for thousands of years, rolling that framework of morality, governance and commerce back to levels of a thousand years ago would probably bring back many of the problems of the dark ages, do we really want to go there?

Democracy anyone? this was supposed to be the solution, the founding fathers came here for freedom yes, but they put rules in place as well.

[awa54]

There are 492 billionaires in the United States currently according to Forbes magazine. So let's say they all give you 200% tax this year. It still does not cover a year of debt. 984 billion your still way short.

Who is talking about 200% tax?!?

it took us two decades and several wars to get where we are, it will take at least as long to get back. (oh yeah, and a *terrible* "free trade" agreement, *that's* on the Dems)

I'm off to sleep, feel free to have the last word :D

[The Mastiff]

Why would the political right fight so hard for deregulation of campaign finance if they weren't *absolutely* certain that it would benefit them?

Is xxxxx deleted two pages worth of stuff from here xxxxxxi's, Sorry. As much as I enjoy it I said I wouldn't.

...but we will all believe what we already believe, for the most part. Funny how everyone thinks that their belief structure is the only one that 's right eh?

That is quoting me right? I wrote something to that extent within the last week or so.

Anyway, Have a good weekend. :)

Joe

[Mic1]

So I was wrong I do apologize.
2014 budget
3.5 actually spent.
3.2 in revenue.
483 billion in deficit

So if all the billionaires gave a billion dollars you could Put 9billion towards the 18 trillion debt lol. I know those are facts not what ifs and theory so that might freak you out.

[awa54]

That is quoting me right? I wrote something to that extent within the last week or so.

Anyway, Have a good weekend. :)

Joe

Hi Joe,

actually, I hadn't seen your post, but I can hardly claim to be the originator... research says that this is the human condition in most cases. And observation tells me that deeply held beliefs are seldom changed by any "evidence" to the contrary. Although people do change over time, and most of us learn from our life experiences.

Honestly I'm more than just a bit annoyed with myself for rising to the bait presented in the beginning of the original thread, but I think my original reply was a pretty mild rebuttal of the mounting wave of right wing *****ing that had started to gain momentum in the thread, but as often happens a mild rebuff is perceived as a challenge to do battle on all fronts... I had already taken it BC with Mic. but he simultaneously opened this thread and chose to take it public, though at least OT.

I will once again point out that blaming liberals for a policy practice that started under a conservative administration and is carried out by a police force that is anything but liberal is absurd, not to mention the fact that the article which is sympathetic to the cause of reasonable knife carry came from a very liberal media outlet. How was that a reasonable segue into liberal bashing on a supposedly non-political forum? I guess all of us lefties are just supposed to lie down and "take it"?

I think we can all agree that politics in the US right now are pretty dysfunctional, it's just the way to a solution we disagree on... I have long thought that the US is too large and diverse to work well as one nation, the problem is that many individual states are too small to survive or lack the resources (human or natural) to thrive without the assistance of larger more productive states... This makes dissolution of the union or ascension of states rights impractical. So for now we're stuck in a cultural feud over who calls the shots.

I for one am done with this OT digression and intend to go back "on topic", I do however want all of the conservative members here to know that I take no sides when it comes to *knife* discussion and that I am quite willing to agree to disagree on other matters, just don't expect me to lie down and play dead if you try to tell me that my deeply held beliefs are wrong and that yours and yours alone are right... I don't expect you to either, that's the nature of discourse.

[Ankerson]

I think most can agree that politics in the US is a mess in general. :D

[awa54]

So I was wrong I do apologize.
2014 budget
3.5 actually spent.
3.2 in revenue.
483 billion in deficit

So if all the billionaires gave a billion dollars you could Put 9billion towards the 18 trillion debt lol. I know those are facts not what ifs and theory so that might freak you out.

not a rebuttal, just more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ted_States

None of the political or economic woes we have now can be "fixed" immediately by any political party... guided in a direction that leads to good results; yes absolutely! fixed tomorrow; no way!

[Mic1]

I think most can agree that politics in the US is a mess in general. :D

For sure!

[awa54]

hey Mic, can we shake (figuratively) and agree to go back to talking about something we agree about (Spydercos are great knives)?

[noseoil]

There are bad apples on all ends of the spectrum, political, social & economic. There are also good ones, but they aren't news-worthy. My wife came home yesterday and was shaking her head over one of her fellow employees. This is from a real conversation, no joke.

There was a comment made about everyone in this woman's family "retiring by age 55" and no later. I asked how this was possible, since I still have about a year until I'm 65 and have worked all of my life. According to my wife, what happens in this one family is that by 55 they have figured out a scam to get a job-related injury. The paperwork gets filed, disability insurance kicks in and they ride off into the sunset with someone else paying for everything, forever! Not sure how large the family is, but to me it's disgusting behavior.

About the political stuff, no comment, but I'm a registered independent now and have been for years. I tend to be pretty conservative in my lifestyle & views and I see no party which represents my interests or point of view.

[TomAiello]

If you start to deregulate or dismantle government then the corporations that are buying influence now will essentially have free reign, I for one am not ready to see that happen.

The corporations already own the government. It doesn't protect you from them--it works for them.

[TomAiello]

...more Republican politicians at the national level are deeper in the pockets of billionaires than Democrats...

I don't buy that, and neither should you. The (R)/(D) divide is a shell game. Don't fall for it.


http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/11 ... sharing-b/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TomAiello]

Name for me one time in history when great power or wealth left unchecked has not overstepped its place in some way and ultimately fallen.

Out of curiosity, what's your personal view on Warren Buffet? Or George Soros?

[awa54]

If you start to deregulate or dismantle government then the corporations that are buying influence now will essentially have free reign, I for one am not ready to see that happen.

The corporations already own the government. It doesn't protect you from them--it works for them.

Hi Tom,

our Government isn't fully in the corporate pocket yet, I think there has to be some work done to give the interests of average citizens more weight (people need to actually vote and vote on issues, not advertising!!), and to force multinational corps to pay tax to do business in the US, it seems far too easy for corporations to flee their obligations in the US, currently we're "giving it away" in too many ways... but corporate input is important as well, business drives the economy. Patriotism in the highest earning ranks comes down to money; if you're a patriot, you'll figure out a way to do business in a way that benefits the US as well as your own bottom line, if not, you can go with simple greed and off-shore it all to make more profit. If the laws in our country supported the former (as they did in the past) it would fix quite a bit IMO. "Free trade" and the exploitation of low cost labor in other countries have turned out to be a pretty serious detriment to the US.

Don't get me started on military contractors that use Asian made chips in military applications... this is pure money grubbing stupidity!

I will continue to argue that more "R" branded politicians at the National level are corporate tools than "D"s, since the effort and cost to convert a Dem (as well as the the balancing act to keep them electable by their base while doing their sugar daddy's bidding) is much more than just starting with a true believer. That said, there are plenty of Dems who are on the corporate payroll.

Soros, Buffet and their ilk still need to pay taxes! and if their corporations continue to off-shore and seek to pay less tax in the US while they give lip service to social justice, then they are just massive hypocrites!

I would like to see more Progressives and Greens (and other parties as well, for those who aren't in my camp) at the National level, but with the current framework that's almost impossible... until there are better or at least more nuanced choices, I think we're stuck with the current two party intransigence