English Anti Knife Law: INSANE!

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I read this stuff and it sickens me to the core.

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/essex_anti_k ... _1_4118814" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Her son was stabbed. That is sad and tragic. But she is running on pure irrational emotion. She founded this group that claims only "cowards" carry knives. That is sickening and insane. She is pushing for David Cameron and the English judicial system to automatically imprison adults for six months, for just carrying a knife.

" David Cameron announced earlier this week he wanted the new law to be in effect “within weeks” after legislation was passed in February.

The law would bring in a minimum six-month jail term for adults convicted for a second time of carrying a blade, while 16 and 17-year-olds would have a four month detention and training order.

Caroline Shearer, who set up Only Cowards Carry after her son Jay Whiston was stabbed to death at a Colchester house party in 2010, welcomed the Prime Minister’s commitment to speed up the new law.

The charity has long been campaigning for tougher punishments for those carrying weapons to act as a deterrent.

Mrs Shearer, from Clacton, said: “We are pleased. It is a step in the right direction.

“However, anyone carrying a weapon should face immediate imprisonment.

“My son, Ashley Woolley, and the hundreds of other people who have been killed by a bladed instrument were not offered a second chance so neither should people carrying these dangerous weapons.

“It is a start and we at Only Cowards Carry will continue to educate young people and communities on weapons awareness and deliver our important work and knife amnesty campaign to help prevent other people from having to experience what I have.

“We will continue to work tirelessly until people face immediate sentencing and changes are made.”

The Prime Minister’s official spokeswoman said: “The Act came in earlier this year, in terms of getting on and implementing this the PM is clear that he wants to get on with this and he has tasked officials with making sure this happens as soon as possible.

“He is clear we should get on with this. He would like to see it implemented within weeks, not months.”

This week new knife amnesty bins were installed in Braintree, Chelmsford and Uttlesford, and it was revealed that 300 knives were dropped in the Clacton bin in the first three months of its operation."

Here is the "charity" called "Only Cowards Carry":

http://www.onlycowardscarry.org/about-us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[brick]

It's amazing what fear, ignorance, and politics can do where they intersect. There seems to be a basic assumption that the only reason anyone would ever carry a knife is intent to harm someone. It's both absurd and sad that people think so little of one another.

[The Mastiff]

I don't really like it when citizens of other countries try telling me what they feel about our laws here in the US and I assume they likely don't want me passing judgement on their countries laws or customs. It's their country to do as they please.

That said I wouldn't want to have their laws here in NC. Hopefully I won't see it.

[shunsui]

Embrace your inner coward. :D

I'm glad the founding fathers let England know what we thought of their laws back in the day.

[demoncase]

*sigh*.

UK bod here- let me explain-

In the UK, we have a law called The Public Order Act- Section 163 which defines the acceptable carry of knives:
1. Unless prohibited by special circumstances (such as in an airport), one can carry a sub 3" non-locking folding knife without good reason at any time in public
2. One MAY carry either a locking folder or fixed blade of any size PROVIDED one has a good reason to do so.
3. Carrying any of the above while being demonstrably involved in the execution of a crime- or in the process of travelling to commit a crime- automatically makes the carrying of said item a weapon.....But if you were carrying a screwdriver or hammer about your person it would count exactly the same as a weapon and the sentencing would be identical.

None of that is changed by the OP mentioned legislation- What they want is longer sentences for those demonstrably up to no good with knives about their person.....Like the little wannabe gang-bangers that carry those 'mall ninja' £5 'Jarbenzas' and kitchen knives while engauged in other illegal activities.

Good reason is typical piece of legalese that allows your average copper and magistrate leyway- it's about context and situation.
You get spotted with Matriarch or Police on the bank of a river, while fishing- no-one will bat an eyelid.
You open your lunch with a UKPK or SAK- No-one worries
You get found, stood on a street corner at 2am, with a kitchen knife in your sock and 20 baggies of funny dirty looking crystals in your pocket- you, my friend, are going to jail.
Get stopped and searched on suspicion for other crimes, and you have a locking folder or fixed blade about your person, then expect a court summons.

Oh- and none of this is new- S163 has been in force since the late 1950s.....I realise that certain US states and cities have been doing something similar recently, but don't conflate the two.

[demoncase]

Embrace your inner coward. :D

I'm glad the founding fathers let England know what we thought of their laws back in the day.

*splutters tea and drops monocle*

I think you'll find it was our taxation you didn't like in the Colonies, old chap....

What with your system of laws being based on Magna Carta, the English legal document from 1297ad which inspired the core of the Revolution- and so forth

[Kirko]

"One Englishman you have an idiot , two Englishmen you have two idiots, three Englishmen they form a club"... like the Bollingdon Club Cameron belonged to

[Doc Dan]

A lot of people might think that laws like this in another country will not affect them. On the contrary, other nations will see how England treats the serfs and strive for similar draconian laws. Plus, nations that do follow this type of thinking will seek to force other more enlightened nations into the same mold.

[DAYWALKER]

Sigh...I am almost certain that there were unmentioned variables that led to this incident at said "house party"...

[Blerv]

In the states we see knives as tools of trade (generally). Maybe because we have stores that you can buy an assortment of legal tools for personal defense.

Context is everything. Bias is blinding. A vendetta won't bring back a loved one who was murdered. Long before edged tools people have been strangling and bludgeoning other people to death. If you take away all the efficient tools it may reduce the number killed but it won't reduce the frequency of violence.

[tvenuto]

Thanks for the clarification, Demon. It appears emotional overreaction cuts both ways, doesn't it?

Agree with you, Blerv, and so does Cormac McCarthy:

“It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.”

[demoncase]

Thanks for the clarification, Demon. It appears emotional overreaction cuts both ways, doesn't it?

I'll be the first to put my hand up and say "Yeah".....But Lex dura, sed lex- The law is hard but it is the law. :spyder:

There's a pile of these charities in the UK now- aimed at inner city 'yoof' but it takes nothing at all for the tabloids to conflate it with anyone and everyone who happens to prefer opening a clamshell packet with their pocket knife rather than worrying at it with their teeth. :D

[Surfingringo]

Embrace your inner coward. :D

I'm glad the founding fathers let England know what we thought of their laws back in the day.

*splutters tea and drops monocle*
hahahah....thats good stuff! :D
I think you'll find it was our taxation you didn't like in the Colonies, old chap....
And I'm pretty sure our conviction to keep ourselves armed was our attempt to keep evading said taxes.

Actually, I think our 2nd amendment was more about protecting us from our own government but the response in red sounded wittier. :p

p.s. Thanks for the clarification on the UK knife laws. Not quite as bad as I thought it was.

[shunsui]

Embrace your inner coward. :D

I'm glad the founding fathers let England know what we thought of their laws back in the day.

*splutters tea and drops monocle*

I think you'll find it was our taxation you didn't like in the Colonies, old chap....

What with your system of laws being based on Magna Carta, the English legal document from 1297ad which inspired the core of the Revolution- and so forth

Oh, it was more than just taxation. I think The Coercive Acts (1774), also known as The Restraining Acts, got a few people annoyed. Actually I think they called them The Intolerable Acts in America.

On another note, here's an article about "British Gun Control" by Dave Kopel which suggests what sort of things might have ticked people off.
Note how he mentions the difference between what a law technically said and implied, and how it was actually implemented.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/amer ... ntrol.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[demoncase]

Embrace your inner coward. :D

I'm glad the founding fathers let England know what we thought of their laws back in the day.

*splutters tea and drops monocle*

I think you'll find it was our taxation you didn't like in the Colonies, old chap....

What with your system of laws being based on Magna Carta, the English legal document from 1297ad which inspired the core of the Revolution- and so forth

Oh, it was more than just taxation. I think The Coercive Acts (1774), also known as The Restraining Acts, got a few people annoyed. Actually I think they called them The Intolerable Acts in America.

On another note, here's an article about "British Gun Control" by Dave Kopel which suggests what sort of things might have ticked people off.
Note how he mentions the difference between what a law technically said and implied, and how it was actually implemented.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/amer ... ntrol.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The thing to be very clear on is that the US 2nd Amendment provides with an unalienable legal right to bear arms- that cannot be infringed as such a right.

There is- and has never been- any such right enshrined in UK law and as such holding arms has always been a privilege which can be granted or removed as seen fit by the encumbant ruler.

We can argue the rights and wrongs of both positions until the cows come home- but the starting point for each nation on arms is fundamentally different in that regard......
Folks approach a given right and a granted privilege very differently.

It's also why frootloops like Piers Morgan get pilloried by the US Press, as they come at the arguement from the concept that the 2nd Amendment is not a right but a privilege, which is a fundamental error on his behalf. (Aside from the fact that he is a verminous little cretin- but that's besides this specific point )

Am I happy that I have to be a club member and show 'good reason' to own a firearm, be limited on ammunition number, list every gun's serial number with the police, have the police interview me and my Doctor on my mental health, have a Police approved gunsafe that is checked every 6 months?-
And I can't have a centrefire self loading rifle AT ALL or pistol under 24" in OAL at all?...
That if I want expanding ammunition to hunt with, I need to ask the police for approval of the ownership of the same, go on a government approved stalking course then keep below the approved number of rounds locked in my safe at all times?....
That any suspicion of a crime which could be considered 'leading to bad judgment'- such as argueing with the neighbours or speeding in the car- could lead the local Firearms Officer to revoke my license without appeal?
No, of course not.....But it is what it is, and we do not have an NRA-type lobbying organisation looking at a legally enshrined right like the 2nd Amendment supporting the 'cause' of shooter's rights.

Heck, in the recent election- the Green Party wanted to ban ALL private firearm ownership, all air rifles, BB guns and even stop toy guns being sold to the kiddies....Thankfully they got 1 MP alone.

[shunsui]

My sympathies, demoncase. It sounds tough over there.

You make me feel lucky to live in San Francisco as a gun owner.

[demoncase]

My sympathies, demoncase. It sounds tough over there.

You make me feel lucky to live in San Francisco as a gun owner.

The only glimmer of sense in UK gun ownership is that suppressors and silencers are actively encouraged to be added, for Health & Safety and reduction of nuisance noise reason...Get your head around that.

[Johnnie1801]

I'm glad I don't live in the UK any more, civil rights are being eroded on a daily basis.

From today's Guardian newspaper

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... rry-knives

A mandatory “two strikes and you’re out’’ minimum six-month prison sentence for carrying a knife, which was blocked more than a year ago by the Liberal Democrats, is to be finally introduced next week.

Justice ministers expect more than a thousand extra offenders a year who are repeatedly caught carrying a knife or blade will be jailed under the measure, which will come into effect on Friday, 17 July.

The “two strikes” law will mean that adults convicted of being in possession of a blade for a second time will face a prison sentence between a minimum of six months and a maximum of four years. Young offenders aged 16 and 17 will face a minimum four-month detention and training order.

A Ministry of Justice impact assessment shows that around 1,300 adults who already have a knife conviction are caught in possession of a knife each year without receiving an immediate custodial sentence under the current regime. Judges are to be able to exercise their discretion if they think it would be unjust in the circumstances to impose the sentence.

The justice ministry estimates that around 1,000 offenders a year will be jailed as a result of the new move, leading to a need for an extra 350 prison places in already overcrowded jails in England and Wales. A further 110 young offenders are also expected to be jailed each year under the measure. Combined, this is estimated to add an extra £10m a year to the costs of the criminal justice system.

Officials acknowledge that the “two strikes” sentence is being introduced at a time when the number of adults being sentenced for possession of a knife or an offensive weapon has fallen by 60% since 2008.

A third, or 3,707, of the 12,125 offenders convicted of possessing a knife in 2014 were given an immediate jail sentence. It is estimated that 1,337 of the 7,944 who were cautioned or given a non-custodial penalty had at least one previous conviction for knife possession.

The official impact assessment adds that the published evidence shows that making sentences more severe only has a minimal impact as a deterrent and that increasing the likelihood of being caught is actually more effective. The officials however say that senior police leaders “have offered their view that this policy might have a deterrent effect”.

The mayor of London, Boris Johnson, and the Metropolitan police commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe, have been pressing ministers since the election for the new sentence to be introduced in the face of a recent rise in stabbings in London.

Nick Clegg, the former Lib Dem leader and deputy prime minister, blocked the measure last June arguing that it was wrong to use a “headline-grabbing solution” which would not necessarily work in practice. He highlighted the example of cases where gang members were forced to carry knives.

“Putting someone like that into prison could push them into the arms of hardened criminals, and let the gang leaders off the hook. Instead of prison we need to divert vulnerable people away from gang culture,” he wrote in the Guardian.

Danny Alexander, then Lib Dem chief secretary to the Treasury, also blocked the move. “The ministry of justice’s budget is already under significant strain, and this proposal would certainly not be affordable before 2016-17,” he said in leaked cabinet correspondence in April 2014.

The justice minister Mike Penning confirmed that the measure would be introduced on 17 July.

“We are already making sure knife offenders are properly punished and keeping more off the streets for longer, making our communities safer,” he said.

“With this new measure we are sending out the strongest message to offenders: repeatedly take a knife on to our streets and expect to go to prison.”

[Ankerson]

It's amazing what fear, ignorance, and politics can do where they intersect. There seems to be a basic assumption that the only reason anyone would ever carry a knife is intent to harm someone. It's both absurd and sad that people think so little of one another.

Exactly.

Kinda like when the Reactor issues happened over in Japan and all those morons here on the West Coast went out and bought iodine and duct tape. Like that would really help if something would have actually happened at a level that would effect anyone. :rolleyes:

Or every single time some anti-gun thing hits the news people flood the gun shops. :rolleyes:

And a horde of other stupid things that people panicked over just because over the years that ended up being nothing.

The Media does more damage and the politicians that actually listen to some of these people shouldn't even be in office as they just add to the problems.

I still can't believe that they actually listen to these fanatics. :rolleyes:

Blows my mind every time I hear about these sort of things.

People however are easily influenced by the media etc, but that's another discussion altogether.

[demoncase]

I'm glad I don't live in the UK any more, civil rights are being eroded on a daily basis.

From today's Guardian newspaper

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... rry-knives

A mandatory “two strikes and you’re out’’ minimum six-month prison sentence for carrying a knife, which was blocked more than a year ago by the Liberal Democrats <SNIP>

“With this new measure we are sending out the strongest message to offenders: repeatedly take a knife on to our streets and expect to go to prison.”

Again- this mis-reports that this is about 'found carrying a knife which is prosecutable without good reason'- ie, as I've described above: either:
1. a locking folder of any type
2. a non-locking folder with a greater than 3" blade
3 a fixed blade.

Carrying said types of knife in public without 'good reason' is what makes it an offence- that hasn't changed....what they have changed is the addition of the repetition addition (three strikes).

Carrying a non-locking, sub-3" folder IS legal WITHOUT good reason and this portion of Section 163 of The Public Order Act Amendment of 1992 and 2005 has not changed....Likewise, being found committing a crime (or demonstrably on your way to commit a crime) or claiming that you were carrying a knife for self-defence renders ANY carried knife as 'an offensive weapon'- but that's the same as being found with a hammer or chisel in that situation.

What this does do is grip those little twerps who stand about of street corners to rob, deal drugs, steal and so forth now at greater risk of ending up inside- the ones who get regular "Stop & Searches" from the Police for other reasons...and (hopefully) take more criminal idiots off the streets