Carter Cutlery knife

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jackknifeh
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#41

Post by jackknifeh »

A week or two ago I walked into the kitchen and there was wife cutting a tomato with the Kuro-uchi knife. I asked how it was cutting. She said cutting the tomato was like cutting through air.

This is possibly the first knife I've let go this long without putting my own edge on it. I usually have done this because of what I've read about removing the steel or edge from a grinding machine, exposing fresh steel or whatever. That's even when the edge is plenty sharp. Since Carter knives are all sharpened by hand I figure this isn't an issue and the only time I need to sharpen it will be when it isn't cutting well. I don't see that happening any time soon since it will only be cutting food. After using the Spyderco kitchen cutlery wife really started noticing a difference in how knives perform. I haven't sharpened them either. :)

I have touched up the neck knives several times and I love the Hitachi white steel in these knives. It takes a super sharp edge and holds it very well.

Jack
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#42

Post by Evil D »

I do almost all the cooking at my house, but I get yelled at if I sharpen all the knifes in the kitchen because the ladies cut themselves too much. I have my chef's knife that I use and I keep it sharp and everyone avoids it LOL.
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#43

Post by jackknifeh »

Evil D wrote:I do almost all the cooking at my house, but I get yelled at if I sharpen all the knifes in the kitchen because the ladies cut themselves too much. I have my chef's knife that I use and I keep it sharp and everyone avoids it LOL.
A funny thing (sort of) happened that makes my wife appreciate a really sharp knife. I had one really sharp hanging on the magnet thing on the wall. When she was taking it off (by the handle) it slipped. Without thinking she tried to grab it but by the time she did the edge cut into the area of her index finger between the knuckle at the hand and the next one. Meaning the cut wasn't right on a knuckle. I was standing there and watched it happen. Even before she knew she was cut I had grabbed a paper towel to wrap her finger. We wrapped it up immediately and by the next day it was almost healed. Now you can't even tell there was ever a cut there. This I believe is because very sharp knives leave a wound that will heal faster than a knife with a dull edge. The dull edge does MUCH more damage to the skin and flesh. This is also why a sharp knife is better for cutting food I've read. They cause less damage to the food. I even understand a tomato cut with a dull knife will look like it is spoiling much faster than one cut with a sharp knife.

She is still scared of the edge after I sharpen the knives but that one experience was something she had never experienced. A cut healing so fast and clean I mean.

Jack
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#44

Post by GavinCC »

Hey guys! My name is Gavin and I am one of Murray's apprentices(of two forging Muteki kitchen and neck knives) and new to forums, so bear with me.

The review was great! It's always awesome to get feedback on our work, it's the best way to improve the product and exceed your expectations.

I did not forge this knife but will share the review in the shop later today! Thanks again

-Gavin
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#45

Post by TomAiello »

Gavin, thanks for posting. I love Murray's (and by extension, your) work. :)
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#46

Post by jackknifeh »

GavinCC wrote:Hey guys! My name is Gavin and I am one of Murray's apprentices(of two forging Muteki kitchen and neck knives) and new to forums, so bear with me.

The review was great! It's always awesome to get feedback on our work, it's the best way to improve the product and exceed your expectations.

I did not forge this knife but will share the review in the shop later today! Thanks again

-Gavin
Thanks for jumping in here Gavin. I've been using the original neck knife for over two months now and slowly I develop opinions about it. I would appreciate your reactions to my impressions of the knives.

First of all and possibly the most dramatic change in attitude on my part is now the neck knife hangs on my chest and I forget it's there. I found when carrying a small folder in a kydex neck sheath, that neck carry provides the absolute best and easiest access to the knife I've found. And now after a while of carrying this knife in a neck sheath I've become accustomed to it and don't notice it's there any more. Just a matter of getting used to it. In addition to the convenient access, the size or weight of a neck knife you also have to deal with re-sheathing it. This will always be a big difference when deciding to use neck carry and then deciding of a fixed blade or folder. Re-sheathing a closed folder can be done by a blind man. Re-sheathing the fixed blade requires I need to look at getting the tip into the end of the sheath. I can easily re-sheath it one handed but, the small differences in a fixed blade and a folder in this case are pretty huge. It sounds trivial to most people I come across but it surprises me how often I get my knife out, open it if it's a folder, use it and then put it away without ever taking my eyes off what I'm working on. When re-sheathing the Carter knives (or any fixed blade) I have to look at it. I will say that re-sheathing into a neck carry sheath is MUCH better than re-sheathing into the sheath on my belt. Actually, I (almost) regret paying for the belt sheath. I don't use it. But I have it if I ever need it. A very generous forum member here did make me a leather sheath for these knives that I like. Is leather a better material for a knife sheath? Yes and no. If you are in the rain all the time kydex is better. But for looks, I love leather. Beautiful leather and beautiful wood are wonderful things. Leather or kydex? Matter of preference for any number of reasons. Once you have the tools and a little experience I think kydex is easier to produce and sell. Can't say I've ever seen a beautiful kydex sheath. :) Leathercrafting is a skill requiring more experience I think. No matter.

I had planned on having an opinion of the two knives (original and Muteki) but since getting the original that's all I've been using. I did use the Muteki for a few days and then when the original arrived and I started using it I couldn't tell any difference in quality or performance. There is a difference in that the Muteki was not ground as thin as the original. This is not a quality issue. This issue is just what is decided by the knife maker. I have two things I do to test the cutting of a knife. I cut cardboard and phone book paper. Any other "testing" I do is just using the knife every day. The cardboard I use to see how long the edge stays sharp and the phone book paper I use to determine sharpness. I could tell a difference in the two knives when cutting the carboard (same pizza box) because the Muteki was a little thicker. But this is expected based on the blade geometry. If I ground the Muteki as thin as the original it would cut the same I believe. And that is one thing I have done with it because it's a little thicker. I've gone through the act of thinning the secondary edge a little. I haven't thinned it much but I did polish the bevel some. Since I have both knives I see no reason for them to be identical. Having one a little thicker may come in handy sometime if I need to do work requiring a little beefier of a knife blade. But, if I'm going to do any real hard work I'm going to use my ESEE or one of my other fixed blades that are not expensive. Or, maybe I just like one knife more than another and don't care if I destroy the least liked knife. I mean work that may damage the knife or be legitimate ABUSE. I actually wanted to whack the spine of a knife the other day to cut through a small piece of plywood. I doubt if I'll use one of the Carter knives to do that. While a knife is a cutting tool sometimes that requires some twisting or a little prying. A knife with a thinner edge will chip easier so I'll use a knife that I don't care as much about or can replace for less money. Actually, I don't think I like a polished bevel appearance on this knife. That's just appearance though. A smoother bevel can make cutting some things a little easier. Polished bevels on wood chisels is an example. But this is not a wood chisel and I probable cut wood no more than just about anything else I come across during the day. I'm retired so I don't use a knife as much as I used to. Not that my occupation required a lot of knife use but now I use one less it seems. Still, I piddle around the house quite a bit. I just got a Kreg jig and have made some shelves and I bought lumber to make a toy box. This sort of thing mostly. A bit off subject but the Kreg jig is a great tool. If you do any screwing of wood to wood get one of these things. SOOOO fast and accurate. It ranks right up there with needing a Dremel as tools go. :)

The Kuro-uchi is a kitchen knife godsend in my house. Wife has always bought kitchen knives at Wal Mart or dollar stores. She has just figured a knife is a knife and a lot of money for a knife is a waste of money. We have a set of kitchen knives in a wooden block. I don't know when we got it. We've had these knives forever and they do a good job. But, the only time even a couple of them get used is for larger carving jobs like ham or turkeys. I have slowly bought knives for the kitchen that get used every day. I even paid $10 for paring knives and now we have 5 or 6 or them. Wife loved them as soon as I put them in the kitchen. Then I got a couple of the Spyderco serrated kitchen knives and she likes them. She even asked if they were too expensive to buy several of them including some with plain edges. So now I've gotten her aware of how different knives perform. Now she has the Kuro-uchi which she loves. When it arrived I told her this was the first kitchen knife of this quality we've ever had and how it needed to be cared for. This knife was quoted on the Carter site as being a $150 value. A single knife for $150 is something my wife has always considered stupid. Now, after using it she hasn't mentioned wanting me to sell it on ebay. She knows I normally sell or trade every knife I get that I don't end up using at least a little. Looks like we'll be keeping the Kuro-uchi. :) So Murray and the rest of the guys/gals at Carter Cutlery can be proud to know my wife won't be asking me to sell this knife so she can buy another purse or something stupid. :) I guess there are products I don't appreciate either. :D

I want to talk about knife prices for just a sec. I don't like to do that because people's money and how they spend it is as personal a thing there is. Therefore, this the least important thing about these knives or this discussion. Just skip it if you want to. Why do I feel compelled to talk about money now? Because Carter knives are more expensive than other knives I've even considered buying. The obvious question here is "are Carter Cutlery knives worth the money they cost when other very nice knives can be found for a lot less?". The only thing I can say is this question can only be answered by each person. The only thing I know is how I feel. The money spent for items people love is different than the same items if they buy them because they just need them. We just need kitchen knives so in the past we just spent enough money to cover that need even if the performance wasn't as high as other knives. A knife that costs $1 cuts. Does a knife that costs $10 cut 10 times better? Probably not. Measuring the quality or performance of something can't be done by using the price. "You get what you pay for" is a very accurate theory most of the time but it's a theory and not all inclusive. If one item is twice the price it doesn't mean it will LITERALLY be twice as good. Just doesn't work that way. If we are talking about a product or item I really enjoy I'm willing (sometimes eager) to spend twice the money another tool of the same type may cost. Even if the performance is only 20% better. It seems to me there are three things to consider. First, is the item something that is needed and will last possibly a lifetime or more? Second, is it an item I will use and how much will I use it? Third (and more immediate), do I have the amount of money it costs? I've seen times I call "ramen noodle for dinner every night" times and I've seen better times. Sometime around 1982 I bought a car for $400. It had been at Cocoa Beach for years and was about 30% covered in surface rust from the salt spray from the waves and the salt in the air. I was surfing at the time and I got it solely to take to the beach. After only an hour or so parked at the beach on some days the salt on the windshield was so thick you couldn't see through it. I even took a couple gallons of water to rinse the windshield. Well, the salt was also all over the rest of the car including underneath it. My point is I paid more for the original Carter knife than I once paid for a whole car. :eek: :) Granted, the car was the equivalent of the "gas station cash register" knives you see. :) But that car was perfect for taking to the beach and not caring how much more damage it got due to the salt spray. What I'm saying is I wouldn't take a Carter knife surfing. :D I'm REALLY starting to ramble now. I have used tools all my life and I've used less expensive and expensive tools both. For me there's nothing worse than getting a new tool and when I'd use it I'd think "I should have spent the extra $20 for the tool I actually wanted. By saving $20 I now had a tool whose motor wasn't quite as powerful as I needed. Or it lacked in some other feature. OTOH, I've paid a lot more for a tool than I needed to because that tool had power or features I ended up not needing or using. Personally, I have no use for the laser guided cutting aimer thingy on my circular saw. Maybe I need to get used to it. :confused: Sure looked cool on the box though. :) To the point. I'm very happy I got these Carter Cutlery knives. The price didn't take any food off the table (right now) and I have tools that will perform for as long as I (and son and grandson) use them properly. The only time factor will be due to using and resharpening until the blade is a toothpick. With proper sharpening (no grinding wheels, etc.) that will be many many years from now. The Hitachi white steel gets very sharp easily and holds the edge extremely well IMO. I'm no expert and don't claim to be. The knives are very comfortable to use. No sore spots on my hands yet. The size is perfect for me for an EDC knife. The only thing the Carter neck knives lack as far as an EDC knife is they are not folders. Sometimes a folder is a better EDC option IMO. A folder and a fixed blade while both being knives should be considered two different categories of the same type tool. One final comment on the cost of a Carter knife. I believe if I ever do need to sell one I can get most of the money back I paid for them. This is something I consider before buying a knife that is over my line of what is expensive or not. I bought these knives and I'm glad I did. But seriously, for me to spend more than $400 for a tool, that tool has always had some very specific uses. The Kreg jig I mentioned. To do the quality job I can do with that one tool would require a huge amount of skill from a cabinet maker or someone like that. Even then I'm sure he would have other tools that also cost money. BTW, the Kreg wasn't $400. :) The Carter knives I bought don't have any specific uses and I paid more for them than I normally do for general purpose tools. Having said that, you won't see any of the three Carter knives I have on ebay or trading forums. :D I'm going to keep them and I'm going to use them.


Jack
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#47

Post by Lebowski22 »

Great posts and review jackknifeh, I just dropped major coin on a Kuro-Uchi after reading this thread and doing lots of research.

Luckily Carter is about 15-20 minutes away from me so I was able to check them out in person. Best kitchen knife I own by far. Just glides through food and makes prep work a breeze.

My new Carter and the Southfork pretty much get all the kitchen duties now. Thanks again.

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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#48

Post by jackknifeh »

Update on the Carter neck knives. I'm loving everything about these knives regarding an EDC fixed blade. But I tell you, you gotta watch the white steel when it comes to rust. One day I used it and got it wet while working and forgot to clean it that night. The next morning I looked at it and was very surprised at the rust. It wasn't really bad and I easily removed it on a 500 grit Shapton stone. But that was within a period of between 12 and 16 hours or so. I don't know what I would have found if I hadn't wanted to carry it the next day. If it had stayed in the sheath for a few days I don't know what I would have found. I don't know how much steel I would have needed to remove to get all the rust off. Other than that the white steel is a super performer. I've been working with vinyl siding for a few days and it cuts through it like butter and holds the edge really well. While I'm at it I'll plug the SB Stretch also. I used it and love that steel too. It's a great knife for vinyl siding. You need a thin sharp blade when using a knife to cut it. The FFG SB blade on the stretch is a great choice IMO.

Has anyone used "Rust Free". There's an add in the AG Russell catalog and I thought I'd try it. I didn't order it because it was priced at $7.95 if ordering with other items and $9.95 by itself. When I was checking out I kept getting charged $8.95 shipping. I emailed them about that. But has anyone tried it? I have been using Tuf-Glide for a long time and it works differently on different non-stainless steels. It seems to have no effect on the Hitachi white steel at all. That steel will patina easily with or without Tuf-Glide. M4 by comparison I remember not being able to force a patina on for at least 2 months after using Tuf-Glide. That's a great feature of M4, excellent corrosion resistance in my limited experience.

I thought about trying the Japanese camellia oil on Carter's site but it's pretty expensive. Anyone got any ideas of how to limit the corrosion on Carter's knives? For now I'll take care to keep them clean and dry when I'm done using them for the day.

Jack
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#49

Post by Cliff Stamp »

jackknifeh wrote:I don't know what I would have found if I hadn't wanted to carry it the next day. If it had stayed in the sheath for a few days I don't know what I would have found.
The interesting thing about plain carbon and very low alloy steels is that while they take surface rust very readily they don't have deep penetration even in extremes. I have left O1 and 1095 blades exposed to the elements for days and yes they will look crazy damaged upon first glance but a few seconds with steel wool and all of that is gone.

Now you can oil it sure, just use a fairly mild oil that you can eat which is ideally saturated to protect against rancidity. However you might want to look at the traditional Japanese method of dealing with corrosion :

-use a wet cloth to wipe the blade down periodically in use to remove food acids (and blood, and flavors)
-use a dry rag any time you are not going to be using the blade for an extended period of time

Unless you live in a really humid environment, dry steel isn't going to corrode significantly.
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#50

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Evil D wrote:
17th generation Japanese blade smith, lived and trained in Japan. He's pretty much the real deal.
What exactly does that mean? I been hearing that every time Murray Carter is talked about.
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#51

Post by Cliff Stamp »

chuck_roxas45 wrote:
What exactly does that mean? I been hearing that every time Murray Carter is talked about.
It means he trained from someone who trained from someone in a continuous line for 17 generations.
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#52

Post by jackknifeh »

Cliff Stamp wrote:
jackknifeh wrote:I don't know what I would have found if I hadn't wanted to carry it the next day. If it had stayed in the sheath for a few days I don't know what I would have found.
The interesting thing about plain carbon and very low alloy steels is that while they take surface rust very readily they don't have deep penetration even in extremes. I have left O1 and 1095 blades exposed to the elements for days and yes they will look crazy damaged upon first glance but a few seconds with steel wool and all of that is gone.
If I understand you correctly, if I had not noticed the rust for several days the apparent damage would not have been much worse? If that's so it's reassuring. I have one Carter kitchen knife and two neck knives. The kitchen knife is easy to keep clean because it's on the counter with plenty of towels and a sink to wash it at will. The neck knives OTOH, I use primarily as an EDC knife and work knife. EDC tasks for me are normally cutting clean stuff. But when working around the house there's no telling what may get on the blade. Therefore it will take more diligence in checking it and keeping it clean. As with all non-stainless steel knife blades I consider this a negative aspect of a knife. We have enough worries without having to worry about our knife rusting within a few hours. Thankfully, there are lots of high-performance (IMO) stainless steels available these days that we are not forced to buy a carbon steel knife to have a great knife. One good thing about this is the neck knives are fixed blades so there's no worry about corrosion inside the pivot. The other day I went into the swimming pool. I had been working on the deck. It was HOT and as I do a lot I just emptied my pockets and jumped in with my clothes. Then I'd get out and continue working. On this one day I missed taking the Michael Walker (ZDP & CF) out of my pocket so it got cooled off in the pool with me. :) When I realized I left it in my pocket I sat it down in the sun to dry and continued working. That night I took it apart and not one speck of corrosion anywhere. In fact it was probably cleaner after going swimming. :) Not needing to worry about corrosion at all is a great feature with any tool. For curiosity I think I'll use my ESEE IZULA II, getting it wet, cutting branches, or whatever and letting it sit to see how the 1095 corrods. I already removed the orange coating from the sides of the blade and polished it. The coating on the sides, in some cases, increases the friction when cutting tougher things I think. But by removing it I exposed more steel to the elements.

I normally don't use folders for tasks that would result in getting water, dirt or whatever inside the pivot. Therefore when I have a fixed blade handy I use it instead. They are just easier to wipe off to keep clean. I say that because I've also been using my SB stretch for a lot of the same tasks I've used the Carter knife for. I haven't paid any attention to exactly how much I used each knife for edge retention comparison but the SB has held an edge extremely well for me. When you add up all the pros and cons of different knives (folder vs fixed, carbon vs stainless blade, cost, etc.) we each will come up with our opinions on what we like more. Maybe needing to make sure the knife is clean and dry after every use is completely unacceptable to some people. In that case the Michael Walker folder might be a better choice than a Carter neck knife. That's if you like to take your knife swimming with you. :)

Anyway, even though the blade did show signs of rust quickly it won't deter me from using it or any other carbon steel. Sure I will need to take better care of it but it's not that much trouble. The rust that did show up was easily removed just as Cliff said. I didn't try steel wool but I will next time if it happens again and it probably will.

Jack
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#53

Post by jackknifeh »

Cliff Stamp wrote:
chuck_roxas45 wrote:
What exactly does that mean? I been hearing that every time Murray Carter is talked about.
It means he trained from someone who trained from someone in a continuous line for 17 generations.
Murray Carter is a "Yoshimoto" 17th generation master. I wonder how many other people fill the roll of Mr. Yosimoto? I mean how many Japanese (or other nationality) masters there are. Or is "Yoshimoto" Murray's trainer? Or was "Yoshimoto" the first guy and his student was the second generation? I mean do the generations need to be within the same family? I'm sure the answer is no because I don't think Murray is Japanese. :)

Just a thought. I'm not going to research it. :)

Jack
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#54

Post by Cliff Stamp »

jackknifeh wrote: If I understand you correctly, if I had not noticed the rust for several days the apparent damage would not have been much worse?


It would look worse, like this :

Image

But that turns into this almost instantly :

Image

As it is just surface corrosion. The low alloy steels don't tend to deeply pit.
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#55

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Cliff Stamp wrote:
chuck_roxas45 wrote:
What exactly does that mean? I been hearing that every time Murray Carter is talked about.
It means he trained from someone who trained from someone in a continuous line for 17 generations.
So those who train from Carter are 18th gen? How about those who pay for the Carter's knife making class?

I wonder how many are 17 generation Yoshimoto together with Carter...
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#56

Post by Cliff Stamp »

You would have to actually be accepted as an apprentice and then at some point passed by said master. It is no different than how locally here someone will say they are a third generation fisherman. It just means their father was a fisherman and his father was a fisherman. It doesn't mean that you once sat in a boat with your father while he caught a fish. I means you have a general set of skills so much that you can make a living at it professionally.

My father is a fisherman (as was his father and his father before him), I have fished, but I am not a fisherman, just like I have used a hammer but I am not a carpenter. Carter is one of the few knifemakers who uses that as marketing because he is one of the few who can. It obviously doesn't mean anything. Jerry Fisk for example is a first generation blade smith. This doesn't really mean he is inferior to every second generation one. It impresses some people though just like when they say I have made tens of thousands of knives. That impresses people as well so it gets said.
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#57

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Thanks Cliff. Yeh, I probably am an ignoramus so I'm not impressed by lineage.
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#58

Post by anagarika »

I remember reading Carter's master passed the lineage to him because of no other qualified apprentices.

Not sure if Carter going to be the last of the Yoshimoto(?).

The concept is similar to martial arts especially Eastern Asia. A master might have many students and qualifies them to teach but the lineage usually will be kept within the family. Carter's case is different for the stated reason above.
Chris :spyder:
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#59

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

anagarika wrote:I remember reading Carter's master passed the lineage to him because of no other qualified apprentices.

Not sure if Carter going to be the last of the Yoshimoto(?).

The concept is similar to martial arts especially Eastern Asia. A master might have many students and qualifies them to teach but the lineage usually will be kept within the family. Carter's case is different for the stated reason above.
I am of the belief that only money and congenital defects are passed through lineage. :D
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Re: Carter Cutlery knife

#60

Post by anagarika »

Carter is now looking for apprentice to continue the lineage. Which is the reason he started using other steels than white #1 only.
Chris :spyder:
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