Carter Cutlery knife

[jackknifeh]

I started this thread to discuss the one Carter Cutlery Muteki (apprentice made) neck knife I ordered. I was planning on providing one person's outlook on the knife. I ended up ordering an original neck knife made by Murray Carter also. I got this knife because a Kuro-uchi kitchen knife came as a free promotion. So, this thread will be about more than the one knife. I'll try to give opinions on the Muteki and original neck knives as well as the kitchen knife. I'll make comments as they come to me. If anyone is curious about these knives ask questions. I'll give my viewpoint. I might even do a little work in the kitchen when wife cooks to try the Kuro-uchi knife. Carter Cutlery has the Muteki (apprentice made) kitchen cutlery also at lower prices.

I've been wanting a knife from Murray Carter for a long time. But when the price is about $400 for the least expensive ones I haven't had a hard time not getting one. Until recently Murray has made every knife. Now, according to the site he has an apprentice who makes knives for Carter Cutlery. These knives are supposed to meet the same standards as the knives made by Mr. Carter. They start at $250. So I ordered one last night. The blade is white steel laminated with stainless steel. The handle is AZ desert ironwood. The price of these knives seems to be between $250 and $300. Just by looking at the pictures I think the price goes up a little when the handles look nicer. More grain or something like that. That's just an assumption though. I'm really looking forward to getting it. I have high expectations from the blade regarding sharpening it and the edge retention. I understand it's not a "never get dull" steel as that doesn't exist. Anyway, this is a new knife "type" for me. First of all I don't have many fixed blades. And the ones I do have are not expensive. I've only gotten fixed blades to fill the role of a beater knife. Knives I can abuse without worrying about damaging a lock or pivot. Batoning if I want to. I have an ESEE IZULA-II which I like. It has 1095 which is a good steel but not the best for edge retention. ESEE uses this steel so it's a tough knife that is easily sharpened in the field using about any sharpening stone. The Carter knife will be the only fixed blade I've owned with a really good carbon steel.

Does anyone here have a Murray Carter knife? If so how do you like it? It's going to take an extra day or two for them to ship mine because I didn't want the horizontal belt sheath they offer. I want one that mounts vertically so they need to make one like that. Horizontal would be fine and very easy to remove the knife but looking at a picture of it the handle sticks out pretty far from the waiste. It looks like it might get caught on almost anything. I'm going to try the neck sheath also but I had a Cold Steel neck knife once and didn't care for a neck knife that was that heavy. I like my Manbug or D'fly in a kydex neck sheath. Also, I know I won't stab myself re-sheathing a folder. :)

Here is the link to the knife I bought. I liked this one because the blade is just under 3mm (2.85mm). Some of them are over 3mm but not my much. The thickness isn't a big deal but I like "thinner" and less weight. These knives are the actual ones you buy and not an example of the model. So now this one says it's out of stock because I bought it. The link may not work after a while. I don't know if they leave them on the site or not or for how long.
http://www.cartercutlery.com/177mm-mute" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 8-72grams/

I'll post a picture when I get it. I'll include another knife in the picture for size comparison. The blade is 85mm (3 5/16" approx.) which is what I like in EDC size.

Jack
PS edit. I originally had the blade length wrong as I said under 3".

[Evil D]

Yeah, I've wanted one too and if I did get one I'd have to go all out and get one that Murray himself made. I would also really love to take his knife making course and have him teach me to make my own, but that's $$$$$.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I read some articles and saw some pictures of his knives. He is able to make laminated blades, infact, if he is the same Carter I read of?

[Evil D]

I read some articles and saw some pictures of his knives. He is able to make laminated blades, infact, if he is the same Carter I read of?

17th generation Japanese blade smith, lived and trained in Japan. He's pretty much the real deal.

[jackknifeh]

I read some articles and saw some pictures of his knives. He is able to make laminated blades, infact, if he is the same Carter I read of?

17th generation Japanese blade smith, lived and trained in Japan. He's pretty much the real deal.

I don't know how it works exactly but I wonder if Murray Carter's apprentices, if they progress far enough would become the 18th generation? Or would that person need to train under the same person in Japan? The official title on his web site is 17th generation Yoshimoto bladesmith.

[Evil D]

I read some articles and saw some pictures of his knives. He is able to make laminated blades, infact, if he is the same Carter I read of?

17th generation Japanese blade smith, lived and trained in Japan. He's pretty much the real deal.

I don't know how it works exactly but I wonder if Murray Carter's apprentices, if they progress far enough would become the 18th generation? Or would that person need to train under the same person in Japan? The official title on his web site is 17th generation Yoshimoto bladesmith.

That's a good question...I don't know if his experience grants him the authority to train and "certify" the next generation or not? I kinda doubt it...it doesn't work that way in martial arts.

[Evil D]

double tap

[Nate]

I'd also like to have something from Carter one of these days. The one you picked up looks really nice.

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the overall design and the steel. I have a 120mm petty knife from Tojiro's Shirogami line in White #2 that I have been very hapy with.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I'd also like to have something from Carter one of these days. The one you picked up looks really nice.

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the overall design and the steel. I have a 120mm petty knife from Tojiro's Shirogami line in White #2 that I have been very hapy with.

In general what materials and methods do you use to maintain that knife, Apophis? Basic oil and sharpening stone and polishing with cloth?

[jackknifeh]

I'd also like to have something from Carter one of these days. The one you picked up looks really nice.

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the overall design and the steel. I have a 120mm petty knife from Tojiro's Shirogami line in White #2 that I have been very hapy with.

In general what materials and methods do you use to maintain that knife, Apophis? Basic oil and sharpening stone and polishing with cloth?

Good question. I'm sure the Carter Cutlery web site has blade maint instructions as there may be a letter with the knife when I get it. I'll decide how to maintain it when I get it as I'm interested in the natural patina that will probably form. Being laminated however that will be only along the edge and top of the spine. But being a fixed blade with no areas that cant' be just wiped off I should be able to control any corrosion without any problem. The only real question I need to answer is if I want to use Tuf-Glide on the blade or not. Without Tuf-Glide or cloth a patina will form. Not knowing anything about the steel yet a patina may form if I use it for food prep or eating even with using Tuf-Glide. The superblue on Spyderco's knives patina's when I use it as a dinner knife with or without using Tuf-Glide. But with Tuf-Glide there is no patina at all under other than food uses. So far anyway. This white steel will be interesting. I'm also wondering how sharp it can get. I'll evaluate it upon arrival of course as well as I'm wondering how sharp "I" can get it at my sharpening ability. I don't have any way to measure sharpness other than every day use while paying attention. But if two steels can obtain a sharpness difference that can only be measured in laboratory conditions they are close enough for me to consider the same. The same regarding EDC performance I mean.

[jackknifeh]

Just looked at cartercutlery.com in the FAQ. Here is what I found. Nothing earthshattering which is good. Simple is good. :)

What is the best way to maintain Carter Cutlery knives?

Carter Cutlery knives should never be put in the dishwasher. Kitchen cutlery should be lightly oiled and kept in their original boxes or away from other cutlery when stored (magnetic strips work well too). After each use, they should be rinsed, dried and put away. Outdoor cutlery should be treated with the same respect, lightly oiled, and returned to their sheathes after use. Any discoloration of the steel edge that will occur over time will not affect the performance of the knives. Sharpening will remove any discoloration.

[jackknifeh]

Yeah, I've wanted one too and if I did get one I'd have to go all out and get one that Murray himself made. I would also really love to take his knife making course and have him teach me to make my own, but that's $$$$$.

I saw the $250 Carter knives a month or two ago and have struggled with getting a "value" (so to speak) Carter knife. My understanding and what I'm hoping for is that the blade steel and heat treating is the same as a knife made by Murray's hands. I don't know how much difference the actual person makes when all the other parts of the manufacturing are identical. How much different will my knife be from one Murray makes using the same steel, heat treating procedure and handle material? How much different would the knives be that Murray makes and the knives his Japanese teacher make? I am hoping the knives are close enough (or identical) in quality. At least close enough in quality to justify trying to spend only $250 instead of twice that or more. Having said that $250 for a single fixed blade knife of no particular (obvious) greatness is hard enough for me to justify. If they didn't come up with that type of price range I still wouldn't have a Carter Cutlery knife coming. It's not that I don't think any of his knives are "worth" what he charges. It's just a matter of what I can or am willing to pay for a given item given my financial standing. If I had 200 go-zillion dollars I'd not give a hoot what anything costs. I'd just get two of everything I want. :)

Spyderco (and many companies) has their "value" folders or products. The biggest difference to me between them and the "regular" Spyderco knives is the blade steel. In the case of these Carter "value" knives I think the steel and heat treating is the same. Right now I'm very happy to have coming what is coming. That doesn't mean I won't buy a "regular" :) Carter knife in the future. Somewhat on a negative (or morbid) note, I'm also beginning to think of things like my son will get these knives after I kick the bucket. :mad: :)

Jack

[Nate]

In general what materials and methods do you use to maintain that knife, Apophis? Basic oil and sharpening stone and polishing with cloth?

Honestly, I've barely had to touch it over the last few years.

I use it as a utility/prep knife in the kitchen, but only I use it and I take good care of it, so it hasn't suffered any damage, just light wear. The geometry is excellent, very thin. I would maintain it on a green compound loaded leather strop very occasionally. Recently as I finally became decent at sharpening, I gave it a "real" sharpening on an inexpensive Boker 1000 grit waterstone I have.

White steel is 100% watch-it-rust steel, but it has just taken a natural patina and seems stable enough for regular, if still mindful, use. I don't oil mine, but I dry it quickly when not in active use and keep it in it's box. (It came in a little special paper "saya" similar to the way Spyderco wrapped the super blue Calys.)

Hard to get good patina pics, but I took a shot. These are clad, but in carbon:

[jackknifeh]

In general what materials and methods do you use to maintain that knife, Apophis? Basic oil and sharpening stone and polishing with cloth?

Honestly, I've barely had to touch it over the last few years.

I use it as a utility/prep knife in the kitchen, but only I use it and I take good care of it, so it hasn't suffered any damage, just light wear. The geometry is excellent, very thin. I would maintain it on a green compound loaded leather strop very occasionally. Recently as I finally became decent at sharpening, I gave it a "real" sharpening on an inexpensive Boker 1000 grit waterstone I have.

White steel is 100% watch-it-rust steel, but it has just taken a natural patina and seems stable enough for regular, if still mindful, use. I don't oil mine, but I dry it quickly when not in active use and keep it in it's box. (It came in a little special paper "saya" similar to the way Spyderco wrapped the super blue Calys.)

Hard to get good patina pics, but I took a shot. These are clad, but in carbon:

Can we get a picture of the whole knife please?

Jack

[jackknifeh]

When I get my knife I'm going to give it the Kevin Costner/Whitney Houston sharpness test. Did anyone see the movie with them where they threw a silk scarf into the air and as it fell across the edge of a samurai sword the edge just sliced the scarf in two? I may not have a silk scarf. I'll need to use cotton underwear. :o

[Nate]

Here's one I had on my phone already. A pic after breaking down 2 whole cauliflour heads. I also like the South Fork for that task.

Coincidentally, me2 also has this knife and started a thread on Cliff's site:
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/ ... 095,page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lol, I can't even count the number of times I've been looking for knife info doing google searches and ended up over there. Anyway, some interesting posts and another pic of my blade in that thread.

[jackknifeh]

I don't know how much it will matter but I've gotten curious about the sharpening job on the knife I ordered. I'm assuming the apprentice will sharpen it. Don't get me wrong, I'm betting it will be VERY sharp. I'm just curious about edge angles and bevel evenness. This is the first knife I've every bought that won't get sharpened on a grinding wheel, belt, etc. I think the only two stones they use are King 1000 and 6000 grit stones. I am expecting the blade at the edge to be very thin which will make for very narrow bevels. A 6000 grit stone should leave a very nice finish. Not mirror but a mirror finish is only important for appearance. For my cutting needs a 600 grit bevel cuts just as good as a mirror finish. In fact the only time I appreciate a mirror finish regarding cutting is when I'm cutting thin slices of wood. Using my chisels for example. Anyway, before I sharpen the Carter knife I'll use the EP to determine the edge angles. Maybe. I might just get the knife positioned so it "just" starts cutting and determine the angle with the angle cube. That gives the angle at the apex but not much info on how convex the bevel is. That should be close enough. But it might be more difficult to determine the angles at different points along the edge. As I said it won't matter that much for a long long time. I may not feel the need (desire really) to re-profile this knife like I do a lot of knives. Even when a knife is incredibly sharp I'm not always happy with the angles. Most are too high IMO. I happy about that though. It's better to have too much steel on the blade. I can always remove some. But if the angles were to low for my desires I just can't seem to get the steel back on the knife. :)

Even though I'm very optimistic about the sharpness I doubt it will be sharp"er" than some of the Spyderco's I've gotten. With every knife being sharpened by hand on quality stones and not being in an assembly line environment I'm thinking the sharpness would be top notch on every knife.

Oh yeah, I did email Carter Cutlery about the blade steel and heat treat. They replied that those two factors are identical on the knives made by the apprentice as they are on all Carter Cutlery knives. That leave possibly less skill going into the forming, grinding of the blade and making the handle. But, the blade performance should be the same as all Carter Cutlery neck knives.

You guys may understand what I'm feeling now. After crossing the line and getting a lower priced Carter knife I'm now looking at the "real" Carter knives with less "I wish I could but NO WAY" feeling. You know what that means! I may need to get a new coffee can to drop my loose change in. :) Then again, right now my loose change goes into my grandson's piggy bank and that's not going to stop. I may have to rob a bank. :D

Jack

[jackknifeh]

I have subscribed to Mr. Carter's knife tips 3 times over the past 5 years or so. The tips come via email and are free. If anyone is interested in them I suggest doing the same by requestiong them once every year or two in hopes of getting new material. Anyway, I requested them again a couple of weeks ago and the 4th tip came with this offer.

Offer =======================
Exclusive Offer for Knife Tip Subscribers
FREE Carter Hand-Forged Kitchen Knife

The most exciting knife I make that customers use day in and day out is a hand-forged neck knife. Neck knives are second only to kitchen knives in terms of actual hours of use per week per knife.

In order that my Knife Tip Subscribers can experience two of the best knives that represent real assets in the cutlery world, I will personally select for you one of my hand-forged general purpose kitchen knives from our current inventory, worth over $150, absolutely FREE when you purchase a Carter Neck Knife (does not apply to Muteki neck knives). Taking advantage of this offer you will have two of the most inherently useful knives in the world.

I'm making this incredibly one-sided offer in your favor because I want to prove to you that my goal in doing business with you is to establish a life-long relationship with you. This relationship will be based on trust, superior products and knowledge and superior customer service. Contact me today for your FREE kitchen knife when you purchase of a hand-forged neck knife at 503-466-1331, or email me directly at murray@cartercutlery.com. Sorry, since the savings are already so great, this offer cannot be combined with other promotional offers.
============================

So, I used the free kitchen knife as justification to get a "real" Carter Cutlery neck knife. :D Here is a link to the neck knife. It's in the lower spectrum of his price range which is nice for me and I like the handle a lot. Actually more than some of the handles on the more expensive knives. I love wood handles.
http://www.cartercutlery.com/178mm-orig ... e-71grams/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So now I'll have two fixed blade neck knives. I don't know what I'm going to do about this terrible problem yet. I may sell the Muteki (first one) or I may give it to my son. Or I may keep it. I haven't decided yet and I probably won't until after I have both. Or at least until after I get the first one and decide how much I like using it. As far as "use" goes I'm betting the two knives will be the same. One thing I am curious about and maybe some of you are as well is if there will be any discerning difference in using the two knives. One being a genuine Carter made knife and the other being a Carter knife made by his apprentice. I'm betting they are close enough to the same that I can't tell any difference during normal EDC use. I only got this knife because of the free kitchen knife offer. I've wanted a good kitchen knife but wife always says no. She likes knives she can use then just toss into the sink and not worrying about it. Can't say I blame her. Ease of use of anything does make life easier. We'll see how she likes this knife and if it is "better enough" that she doesn't mind taking better care of it. If she doesn't want to keep it I may sell it or trade it. We'll see. Another thing that "we'll see" about is how I like carrying a fixed blade for EDC. It will either be in a neck sheath or on my belt. There are several "we'll see's" revolving around these Carter knives. :)

Jack

[SolidState]

I can ask a few of these questions at the OKCA. I've met his apprentice, and he's a nice young man with a strong interest in cutlery.

[jackknifeh]

I can ask a few of these questions at the OKCA. I've met his apprentice, and he's a nice young man with a strong interest in cutlery.

Any additional information about these knives is great. Not too much technical information because I don't understand it. Regarding steel I mean. It may be valuable for other people though. In a video Murray has on youtube he compares white steel to blue steel. As a comparison he said white steel is like a painter painting on a blank canvas and blue steel is like someone painting by number. Meaning white steel can be turned into a great blade steel but it takes a master. Blue steel on the other hand is made so more people can make great blades with it as long as the don't mess it up. These are the type of analogies I can understand. :)

Jack