Spyderco Fire Steel?

[Johnnie1801]

Just wondering if Spyderco have any plans to make their own fire steels? With the popularity of bushcrafting etc I thought it might be nice to have a fire steel supplied with certain fixed blade knives or at least a little holder on the sheaths to house a fire steel.

[Blerv]

I could certainly see them teaming-up and including one with the knife as a bundle rather than developing their own. Similar to what they did with the Photon.

[jmh58]

I think Spyderco needs to keep doing what they do best!! :spyder: Make knives!! :D

FireSteel GobSpark Armageddon!! John :)

[SpyderNut]

Fire steel, huh? Oh, I get it. I thought "Fire Steel" was some sort of new type of super steel like Superblue, etc. Lol. Interesting idea.

[Johnnie1801]

I could certainly see them teaming-up and including one with the knife as a bundle rather than developing their own. Similar to what they did with the Photon.

That would probably be the best way to go, I've seen blank fire steel's go for about 50/60 cents each, so I'm sure if they mass bought them it would be even cheaper. Adding a molded plastic Spyder :spyder: to the top would be pretty cool :p Thanks for the Photon tip, I never saw that before.

Fire steel, huh? Oh, I get it. I thought "Fire Steel" was some sort of new type of super steel like Superblue, etc. Lol. Interesting idea.

Hahaha no, but fire-steel does sound like a good name for a steel :p A fire steel is just for starting fires when you are out camping/bushcrafting or in a survival situation. I know from experience that when your hands are cold and wet, using matches can take a while. Matches break or the striking surface can get all messed up or the wind puts them out. So long as you have dry tinder you just need to strike your fire steel against the back of your knife and you'll create sparks to light it up. It's very easy and that's why we are seeing more knife/fire steel combo's.

here's one from Muela

Here's a Bark River sheath with the firesteel attachment

[Cliff Stamp]

The interesting thing about fire steels is that they are an extreme example of hobbyist distortion of a practical issue. The arguments for them over much more effective fire starting tools are not justified, often heavily distorted, repeated without verification and often strongly advocated without any even attempt to verify the veracity of the claims.

Practical demonstration of the effectiveness of a ferrocerium rod vs a lighter shows that the rod requires much more preparation and is simply far less efficient. It is one of those odd things where an obviously inferior device is championed specifically because it takes more skill/experience to use it. If you were to give a rod vs lighter to someone who actually lit fires every day for work vs play, which one would they take?

Fortunately there are more people speaking out posting solid information on how a simply lighter isn't nearly as fragile as claimed and how some of the arguments are simply ridiculous. For example claims that a lighter would quickly wear out in a "real" situation because it can only light so many fires are just silly because you clothes would wear out long before a lighter would run out of fuel, let alone it will still throw sparks even when the fuel is gone.

Now I am not saying knowing how to prepare tinder to be able to light a fire from a spark isn't useful, it is just odd to base choices which start with a given handicap. Imagine designing a knife handle which only allows a grip with the thumb and index finger because you might get your other fingers broken in "survival" situation. Again, learning how to use a knife with a damaged hand is useful sure, but designing and carrying a knife with a built in injured hand restriction is a bit odd.

Here is one of the more balanced commentaries :

- http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/ ... ghter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GoldenSpydie]

For me, the biggest reason to use a ferro rod is that it gets you extra point in BSA Klondike, which can help your troop win. Using a lighter will get you counted off. Most of the other reasons for using a ferro rod are quite silly, IMO. I much prefer a few packs of those giant, orange water proof matches that burn like tiny sparklers. Ferro rods are still fun to use on occasion, though!

[bearfacedkiller]

You cannot have too many ways to start a fire when in the woods. A ferro rod makes a lot of sense for one very clear reason. It is by far the most waterproof option that exists. I was a Boy Scout and have been an avid backpacker all my life. I have ventured very far into the wilderness alone and being prepared for a worst case scenario is paramount when alone and in the remote wilderness. Even waterproof matches have their limit when things get wet enough. I spent most my life on the east coast and it can get very wet. I have searched for the best survival lighter but in the end nothing seemed to exceed the reliability of a Bic but they are far from waterproof. I believe the best answer to fire starting is to carry multiple Bic lighters in your pack sealed in separate waterproof containers but I always carry waterproof matches, a ferro rod and a film canister of Vaseline soaked cotton balls. Ultimately a ferro rod weighs so little and is so small and so full proof you are crazy not to carry one in a situation like I described. Would I ever carry one as a stand alone tool for fire starting? Heck no, there are way easier methods.I have had good luck with a gobspark as well.

[Cliff Stamp]

A ferro rod makes a lot of sense for one very clear reason. It is by far the most waterproof option that exists.

Making a waterproof container is trivial, a ziplock bag and an elastic does it and gains you an additional carrying container, fire starting equipment and cordage/binding material. Is it really reasonable to trade off a continuous flame for a spark to avoid having to pack the lighter in a bag or otherwise a water tight container? For matches there are all manner of small containers which are perfectly watertight and even use sealed o-rings and don't just rely on screw seals.

[bearfacedkiller]

You so crazy! Did you get past the second sentence? Do you have any real experience with real wilderness survival?

A zip lock bag is not very waterproof, this is my first hand experience. If it is raining hard enough a lighter can get wet as soon as it comes out of the bag so what good does your container do then. I have started fires in the pouring rain with vaseline soaked cotton and a ferro rod when a lighter would have been wet in just a few seconds. We are talking about something I have an immense amount of experience with and know what I am talking about. I would never tell someone to bring anything less than what they feel comfortable with when it comes down to matters of survival. If someone told me they carried a road flare to start fires because it made them feel safe I would never tell them not too. This has nothing to do with what you or I think is the right way to do it. Survival is 80% state of mind anyway and anything that reinforces your confidence level increases your chances of survival.

I have used my vacuum sealer to seal a lighter for a backup so if my other one got wet I would have a dry one. I have done this a lot while hunting but when backpacking I will be far more prepared and carry a ferro rod too.

Can you agree to disagree?

[Cliff Stamp]

Just to clarify, your response is that you :

-don't believe it is possible to easily make a water proof case for a lighter

and second

-even if this was done it is not possible to use a lighter in adverse conditions because it will get wet

that is really the argument you want to make to defend the use of a ferrocerium rod?

A zip lock bag is not very waterproof, this is my first hand experience.

You want to actually dispute that a ziplock bag, or similar wrapped around a lighter and sealed with an elastic would actually keep it dry even in adverse conditions? You have actually seen this fail, can you describe the conditions as is a trivial experiment to replicate.

The bag itself is impermeable, the mechanical failure of the fastening can be prevented by wrapping it from the inside out, that is the purpose of the elastic to prevent any loading of the seal plus it compresses the plastic to minimize water ingress.

Lighters do also not instantly just fail when wet. A lighter can be completely submerged in water and will be back to working in an extremely short period of time. There are again many videos demonstrating directly.

If you wanted to make it even insanely resistant then you would just wrap it twice, at this point then it is almost impossible to even conceive of how water could penetrate it and this is again without even basic containers which cost little to nothing.

If it is raining hard enough a lighter can get wet as soon as it comes out of the bag so what good does your container do then.

Again to clarify, your argument is that while a person can somehow prepare and utilize natural tinders in the rain, they can not use a lighter because it is impossible to keep water out of the mechanism - but of course it is possible to keep water off of the tinder ?

You really want to make the argument it is impossible to use a lighter in adverse conditions and that a rod is easier to use in wet and damp conditions?

You don't see any value in the fact that the lighter, because it can produce a sustained flame can ignite a much later variety of materials?

[bearfacedkiller]

So that was a no, you cannot agree to disagree.

"You want to actually dispute that a ziplock bag, or similar wrapped around a lighter and sealed with an elastic would actually keep it dry even in adverse conditions? You have actually seen this fail, can you describe the conditions as is a trivial experiment to replicate."

Yes, I have had baggies fail, even when double bagged. That was why I mentioned vacuum sealing a lighter. You can recreate it in one of your experiments if you want but I have seen it happen many times. I have done many canoe camping trips where we canoed all day and camped at night. Sometimes covering over 50 miles by canoe. Yes, when in a canoe in the rain after raining all day I have had baggies fail even when buried deep within my pack. I have also been an avid fisherman and we used to wade rivers in which we had to wade up to our chests at times while fishing for Muskellunge and at that time I was an smoker. Keeping a lighter and my smokes dry when wading in water all day was near impossible and those baggies failed too. I have seen it enough times to not trust a baggie.

"Again to clarify, your argument is that while a person can somehow prepare and utilize natural tinders in the rain, they can not use a lighter because it is impossible to keep water out of the mechanism - but of course it is possible to keep water off of the tinder ?"

Yes, you can shield vaseline soaked cotton from the rain with a piece of bark or similar long enough to light it with a spark. Keeping the lighter dry while water is running down your arm is harder. The vaseline soaked cotton will indeed ignite wet twigs and get you started if you can cover it long enough. Again, been there and done that.

"Lighters do also not instantly just fail when wet. A lighter can be completely submerged in water and will be back to working in an extremely short period of time. There are again many videos demonstrating directly."

So your knowledge base on this is videos? It has to stop raining for your lighter to dry out and it takes quite a while after that. Flint can fail to spark fairly quickly when it gets wet. How do you dry a lighter out quickly in the rain. Have you ever been shivering in the rain trying to start a fire. I have and there is no waiting for a lighter to dry out when hypothermia is kicking in. If it was wet enough to get your lighter wet it isn't drying out fast enough.

"You don't see any value in the fact that the lighter, because it can produce a sustained flame can ignite a much later variety of materials?"

The aforementioned vaseline soaked cotton holds a sustained flame very well. Actually, longer than you can even hold a lighter lit before it get too hot and while the vaseline is burning you can attend to your tinder easier. I use this vaseline even when using a lighter because it works so well.


Most importantly, do you really think that you can be too prepared when your life may be on the line? What is the problem with supplementing your gear with a ferro rod? Did I ever suggest not carrying a lighter as first resort? Hint: answers are no, nothing and no.

Seriously, do you really think this is a topic that you have the right to tell someone else how to do it? It is their life.

Get ready, here it comes. No offense really, but I don't think you know what you are talking about. At least that is what it seems like becasue you shared no experiences.

I am still willing to agree to disagree if you are. If not, again, I'm tapping out. This isn't a survival forum, it is a knife forum.

[tvenuto]

I think we need Cliff to calculate the caloric demand of carrying one fire steel. Because that's the argument, right? I mean carrying a fire steel doesn't preclude you from carrying a lighter, so the real argument must be that even having the fire steel is not worth the caloric demand it places upon you?

[Donut]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a butane based lighter as something that can structurally fail. How many years do butane lighters hold their pressure?

The highlight of a fire steel in my eyes is the low maintenance. I can put a fire steel away for emergency use... and 20 years later, no matter where it's been, it is going to work.

[PWork]

The highlight of a fire steel in my eyes is the low maintenance. I can put a fire steel away for emergency use... and 20 years later, no matter where it's been, it is going to work.

...and that pretty much sums it up.

I'm also willing to bet that there are far more fires in a ferro rod than there is in a butane lighter. How many matches would it take to equal one ferro rod?

Anyone traveling very far into the woods (or any other outdoor location) is just plain nuts not to have at least two (preferably three) means of lighting a fire in their kit.

I have to admit that a firesteel with a Spyderco "Bug" on the handle would be pretty cool, but probably not really cost effective.

[GoldenSpydie]

Come on guys, do we have to argue about everything? I mean, really, arguing about whether it is a good idea to carry a lightweight, fun, backup firestarter while backpacking deep in the wilderness? If you don't want a ferro rod, don't buy one. :rolleyes: Plenty of us will still carry, use, and enjoy them. :)

[bearfacedkiller]

I do some winter solo backpacking sleeping in snow caves that I dig for myself and your pac can get really heavy when packing enough winter gear with you. I am almost obsessed with pack weight reduction and I have even gone as far as to weight every item in my pack and shaved mere ounces. I still struggle on longer winter solo trips keeping my pack under 30 pounds and being 6 foot and 140 pounds that much weight is a workout for me. My wife has looked at me like I was crazy when I was weighing two different lexan spoons to see which weighed less while prepping my pack. That said, I always practice redundancy with my survival gear and two knives and about 6 ways to start a fire are exceptions to the minimalist way I backpack. I usually pack a small 2oz bottle of hand sanitizer as well because it is just alcohol gel and it is a great firestarter too.

I have been hypothermic and I have had mild frostbite and your life is something you do not get a second chance at. I was once hiking in the winter and didn't realize I was walking across a beaver pond and fell through. When I hit bottom I was chest deep in water and by the time I got out and got a fire started I was starting to get a little worried to say the least. Cold can overcome you fast and I personally will never be underprepared in the firestarting department.

[Cliff Stamp]

I think we need Cliff to calculate the caloric demand of carrying one fire steel. Because that's the argument, right?

No, read my initial post, my issue is with how they are argued/promoted, especially how they are compared to lighters.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a butane based lighter as something that can structurally fail.

Now evaluate the sensibility of not carrying a lighter because of that kind of argument. If you carry two lighters, then the chance of failure is reduced severely due to basic probability laws as they multiply.

Plus of course lighters can be maintained just like any other tool, just because they can have issues doesn't mean it means you would not take them and ignore the advantages.

Lighters also don't need to be carried on their own, they can be made into a kit and the sparks from a lighter will still start a fire even when it has no fuel.


https://youtu.be/geJBm1wW_nQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imagine if someone said they would not take a gun for a "survival" situation because guns are very complicated and had moving parts. Now would you accept that is valid or would you suggest they are ignoring if the benefit it worth the risk and demand of maintenance.

--

My contention is that the arguments for them in general are not rational. Look at BDK's argument, in order for the rod to be useful :

-a double bagged / elastic wrapped protection has to fail
-it has to be raining heavily
-you have to be in early stages of hypothermia

and that scenario he argues is a rational reason to use a ferrocerium rod because in that situation it is more useful than a lighter and this is true because :

-there is no way to dry the lighter out so it can even produce a spark

As I noted before, it isn't carrying the rod that is the issue, it is how it is promoted and the arguments used to justify it over a lighter. I have carried a ferrocerium rod since forever, there are lots of reasons to do so, one of which for example is that they almost never get confiscated. There are lots of places you can't carry a lighter or matches but almost no one balks at one of the small micro-rods. The micro-rods are also extremely easy to carry as they are so small. Someone gave me a bunch of them years back and I just taped them to a bunch of things to see if they would last. A year later and they were still attached to belts and such, far easier to carry that a lighter or pack of matches.

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, I have had baggies fail, even when double bagged.

And how were they wrapped?

Do you not see how your argument is completely insensible. Imagine if I made this argument :

The Sharpmaker is junk, I have seen it fail to sharpen knives on many occasions.

Would you agree that assertion is justified because of the observation, or would you instead say something like "well it depends on how it was used, anything can fail to sharpen a knife if it isn't used properly" .

Yes, you can shield vaseline soaked cotton from the rain with a piece of bark or similar long enough to light it with a spark. Keeping the lighter dry while water is running down your arm is harder.

So again, to clarify, you can figure out how to shield the tinder, but you can not figure out how to shield the lighter from rain?

So your knowledge base on this is videos?

No, the claim is demonstrated on video hence I cited it for external justification. How I know it is based on the physics of how a lighter works and direct observation, but the latter isn't in general a valid reason to assert justification and I don't think the former would work in this case, hence external references.

It has to stop raining for your lighter to dry out and it takes quite a while after that.

How long, have you measured it?

...there is no waiting for a lighter to dry out when hypothermia is kicking in.

It takes no time to get out the cotton balls, the rod and gather what you are burning, this is all on hand and immediately available?

Actually, longer than you can even hold a lighter lit before it get too hot and while the vaseline is burning you can attend to your tinder easier.

You don't need to touch any of the metal parts to hold a lighter and keep it lit. There are also lighters which will light and stay lit when you engage them, you don't need to keep them pressed down.

Seriously, do you really think this is a topic that you have the right to tell someone else how to do it? It is their life.

I don't advocate that I have the right to someone how to do anything unless what they are doing impinges on my rights in which cause the action has to maximize rights in a way similar to Rawls argued for Justice.

[bearfacedkiller]

I thought I said I was tapping out. I don't argue just to argue. Still tapping, you win, please stop.

PM inbound.