Spyderedges: Different Blade Steels

[Bill1170]

It would be interesting to see how tool steels like M4 do in SE.

[JD Spydo]

It would be interesting to see how tool steels like M4 do in SE.

Yeah M4 is one I'd be interested in seeing how it would do in Spyderedge. I've only ever used it in plain edge so far. But XHP is another one I'm curious about. I'm surprised that more people haven't chimed in with ATS-34.

AUS-10 I know is decent.

[JD Spydo]

I never really liked ATS55 as a plainedge yet it does quite good in SE from my experience.

If you compare closely japanese made SE vs US you can notice a rather different profile for the tips, the US made SE are already 'broken in' the points are actually rounded portions of plain edge as if you already sharpened them a lot on the sharpmaker, this reduces the grabbing you usually see on OOTB jap SE.
This is the reason why i never sharpen serrations individually, as by doing so you sharpen the concave and never touch the points which remains pointy yet dull and snag materials like ****.

Greetings AGain "Stalag2": Again I find your feedback extremely interesting and find that we seem to agree on some major points.

Now I do take issue with what you said toward the end of your post in regards to sharpening Spyderedged blade scallops and spike individually. You said you don't use a hand held sharpening tool to do serrations because you fail to sharpen the "spike" part between the scallops. Well I've got good news for your Sir >> yes! you can indeed sharpen the entire serration pattern with the 701 Profiles and according to Mr. Glesser you can also sharpen them with the newer Goldenstone as well.

But with the 701 Profiles you use the radii on either end ( whichever fits that particular scallop the best) and push that radii section toward the edge of the blade and most of the time one of the radii fits the scallop almost perfectly. Now on the spike part you need to see which degree of corner on the 701 stone fits that particular spike you are sharpening. There are 2 corners on the 701 Profile stone and each corner is a slightly different degree on both sides>> usually one of them will fit your spike section almost fit perfectly. Push both the radii and the corners in to the blade edge. Do each individual spike and scallop and it does take a while I won't lie to you but the results are well worth it.

I do agree with you about ATS-55 being great steel for Spyderedges. I also agree with you that the serration patterns on the USA/Golden made Spyders are different than the Japan/Seki made ones are. I actually prefer the ones on my 440V, SE Native model better than I do a lot of the the Japan made units (irrespective of what blade steel they have).

My all time top favorite Spyderedge is the ones you find on the older/discontinued AUS-8, SE Catcherman model from the early/mid 90s. I still use my full SE Catcherman with AUS-8 (which is a decent steel for Spyderedges by the way). That full SE Catcherman is about my all time favorite kitchen knife period>> not to mention it does an excellent job on fish too.

[stalag2]

There is too much variation between the SE patterns to just rely on the curves found on the profile and use it individually in each scallops, plus the curves each side of the radii arent symetrical so i fail to see how you could abrade the whole bevel and the points without inducing undue wear on the long term and thirdly this method is painfully slow compared to the regular one.
I get hairpopping edges fast the regular way ( could get to hairwhittling with a dremel felt wheel but who cares ), it is really simple and as a bonus i smooth out the points slightly yielding a cleaner cut.

Edit: I just tried my miniprofile on a CE CRKT neck peck which has the same serration pattern as a SE, i painted the edge with sharpie and there is no way to perfectly erase the ink in a consistent manner both in the tiny scallops and the large ones unless you move the rod inside which negates the supposed advantage of this method.
I'm fairly sure you can do a better job with a tapered file as it will adapt much better to the various sizes of the scallops but you WILL eventually move the scallops further up and leave the tips barely sharpened unless you enlarge the scallops.

2nd edit: I have to say you are right about the profiles being better than the 204 because when you use the regular method on the 204 you have to do it very slow to avoid rattle and wobble, the mini profile held in hand rides MUCH better inside and you can go at a normal pace, this works also with the full sized profile if you use the pouch or something that will absorb the vibrations.

Finally, my gripe with the goldenstone isnt about its inability to do SE or whatever, it's just that the profiles are fairly more convenient and practical, basically with the goldenstone you get a better flat surface, nicer looking item ( i have to agree it is gorgeous ), built in angle guide if you are willing to be ambidextrous vs various grit, portability and being able to use them in hand as a file or steel.
Each time i think about the Profiles being discontinued i have to scratch my head.
Now if they somewhat manage to make sintered ceramics using CBN and put it in a goldenstone i would get one asap.

[JD Spydo]

There is too much variation between the SE patterns to just rely on the curves found on the

2nd edit: I have to say you are right about the profiles being better than the 204 because when you use the regular method on the 204 you have to do it very slow to avoid rattle and wobble, the mini profile held in hand rides MUCH better inside and you can go at a normal pace, this works also with the full sized profile if you use the pouch or something that will absorb the vibrations.

Finally, my gripe with the goldenstone isnt about its inability to do SE or whatever, it's just that the profiles are fairly more convenient and practical, basically with the goldenstone you get a better flat surface, nicer looking item ( i have to agree it is gorgeous ), built in angle guide if you are willing to be ambidextrous vs various grit, portability and being able to use them in hand as a file or steel.
Each time i think about the Profiles being discontinued i have to scratch my head.
Now if they somewhat manage to make sintered ceramics using CBN and put it in a goldenstone i would get one asap.

I guess my communication skills have a bit to be desired :rolleyes: :D OK you're right in one sense that the radii on the 701 Profiles don't fit most scallops perfectly>> that is correct in one sense but if you abrade it enough they eventually will take on the shape of the Profile radius the more you abrade it. Which is why I desperately want Spyderco to not only bring back the 701 Profiles but to add diamond and ultra-fine stones to the set as well. Because with diamond I could make sharpening even beat up Spyderedges a cinch. And the corners may not fit exactly perfect>> and yes again to a point you are correct but the more you abrade it the stone will soon take on the shape of the scallop (radii) and the spikes ( corners).

Also you're right in a sense that it takes a dedicated fool like myself to have the patience to do it that way but again the results I obtain are enviable. The problem I personally have with the 204 Sharpmaker is that if you use it enough it will round off your spikes and deform the original pattern that came from the factory>> oh yes it will get it sharp all right but I like to keep my serration patterns looking like they came from the factory and up till now I can't find a better tool that the 701 Profile kit>> and the kit does need more grits to be perfect IMO.

The Goldenstone??? yeah I sort of agree with you there completely. There is so much that needs to be done in that area>> because they need the Goldenstone in more grits first of all. Second we need more information on it ( an instructional video would be nice). And third I've heard through the grapevine that they are working on a device that will secure the Goldenstone to where it will be easier to work with it. If I could sit down and show you how I do this I think you might be more inclined to agree with me somewhat.

[kennethsime]

As far as SUPERBLUE goes the jury is still out on it but I'm willing to bet it will be good for Spyderedges.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Superblue a particularly hard, and thus brittle, steel? Wouldn't this make it a relatively poor choice for a serrated/spyderedged knife, in the same way that ZDP is regarded to be a relatively poor choice for a spyderedged knife?

[stalag2]

As Sal would say, all good, just different.
I understand that you devoted much more skill than i did to get them sharp using the ''file method'' but if i could get it done faster that way even at the risk of modifying them a bit, i would do it as i'm somewhat eager and a cheap skate, if i can use shortcuts i do, and let me tell you, i ordered a diamond tapered file to fix a few serrations with microchips because i wont bother to remove that tiny chip located in a small serration on my Pro venator and another one on a stainless Delica using the regular way as it would take long and somehow waste steel.

When i say i sharpen the regular way, i somehow omitted to say that in fact, on knives which sports hollow grinds that are parallel to the edge ( Delica, Endura, Ladybug ) i do the grinding flat on the right side using the corner of a profile or 204 rod and use the grind shoulder as a guide until it devellops a burr then knock the burr left side, this way i somehow get a compromise between the factory grind and the 15 or 20 deg microbevel applied along with the enhanced cutting ability it is really easy to do it freehand that way but it ultimately gives you a slightly weaker edge.

Edit: You'll make me try the file method though as i got a saber ground Endura that i want to thin out because the serrations are around 22-25 degrees and the cross section is so thick it cuts poorly, and the only real way to somehow preserve the serrations when reprofiling is with a diamond tapered file, it might not be pretty but i want it to cut.
My initial plans for that one was to just sharpen the left side until it turns into a wavy edge then convex and thin as much as i can with sandpaper and turn it into a PE, sort of.

[JD Spydo]

As far as SUPERBLUE goes the jury is still out on it but I'm willing to bet it will be good for Spyderedges.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Superblue a particularly hard, and thus brittle, steel? Wouldn't this make it a relatively poor choice for a serrated/spyderedged knife, in the same way that ZDP is regarded to be a relatively poor choice for a spyderedged knife?

No not necessarily so>> because I've seen many JapanWoodWorker catalogs and they make a lot of wood chisels with Superblue steel>> and nothing takes shock and is subjected to hard shock quite like a wood chisel in most cases. It is a relatively hard steel yes. But it also has other properties of toughness that keep it from chipping like a lot of steels would. Now I could be going against the grain in my way of thinking. I don't think that Superblue is comparable to ZDP-189 from the people I've talked to that have used blades of Superblue steel. And like I quoted "my Jury Is Still Out On Superblue" for Spyderedges. I do want to check it out first hand before I make my mind up. Because 440V is a somewhat hard steel and it works like a dream with Spyderedges>> I know because I have 2 user folders that I use the living **** out of that have 440V blade steel and they take the punishment surprisingly well.

[Cliff Stamp]

...I've seen many JapanWoodWorker catalogs and they make a lot of wood chisels with Superblue steel>> and nothing takes shock and is subjected to hard shock quite like a wood chisel in most cases.

If you read the wood shop guys, an extremely common notion is that they have to increase the angles on Blue/White steels compared to the conventional American grades to prevent them from chipping.

The problem with toughness is basically compared to what really. SuperBlue is very brittle compared to S7, it is super brittle compared to 4340, it is tough compared to 121REX. It gets complicated as well when you talk about scale. SuperBlue will resist micro-chipping better than say ATS-34, not because it is tougher per say on some kind of charpy style test, but because the apex of a knife is ~1 micron and ATS-34 has carbides which are 10X that size and can tear out of the edge.

In regards to what would/would not make a better serrated edge, take a look at the serrated edges you have and see how they are failing in use :

-if it is slow wear, try steels with more carbide

-if it is deformation, look for a steel which is much harder

-if it is chipping, then look for a steel which is tougher

If you don't match the properties then it will get worse. If you use a blade in VG-10 for example and you find the serrations are breaking off then trying S30V isn't likely to be productive as S30V has a slightly higher wear resistance than VG-10 but doesn't dramatically improve on the toughness in any respect, but H1 does very much .

[JD Spydo]

...I've seen many JapanWoodWorker catalogs and they make a lot of wood chisels with Superblue steel>> and nothing takes shock and is subjected to hard shock quite like a wood chisel in most cases.

If you read the wood shop guys, an extremely common notion is that they have to increase the angles on Blue/White steels compared to the conventional American grades to prevent them from chipping.

The problem with toughness is basically compared to what really. SuperBlue is very brittle compared to S7, it is super brittle compared to 4340, it is tough compared to 121REX. It gets complicated as well when you talk about scale. SuperBlue will resist micro-chipping better than say ATS-34, not because it is tougher per say on some kind of charpy style test, but because the apex of a knife is ~1 micron and ATS-34 has carbides which are 10X that size and can tear out of the edge.

Thanks for that detailed breakdown on toughness versus hardness and it just makes perfect sense when you think about it. And you are spot on concerning S7 steel because I've got a good buddy who has a tactical tomahawk made with S7 and I'm here to tell you that is awesome steel for tomahawks, axes, and hatchets. I've also heard from machinists I used to work with that S7 has other super properties to it. I would love to have a double bit axe made with S7.

For some of the reasons you cited it explains to me why AUS-8, ATS-55 and others with similar properties make good Spyderedge steels. Well I've had great luck with them anyway. AS far as VG-10 is concerned?? Well personally I've had good luck with it in PE and SE too for the most part. But I do like 440V better than I do S30V for Spyderedges>> just my own personal preference even though it might not look good on paper.

I'm sure that the woodworkers who sharpen blue/white steels at a higher angle do so for good reason. But I know a local woodworker who told me how good Superblue is for wood chisels. I'm sure he knows the best angles to sharpen it. I'm sort of surprised that High Speed Steel doesn't break or chip anymore than it does because that stuff is hard.