Share Your Sharpening Advice - The Catch-All Thread!

[wrdwrght]

There are apexes. And then there are apexes.

One-micron apexes are for experimental physicists who wax philosophical. Match the edge to the work to prolong the working edge.

Ain't no mistake the Sharpmaker's microbevel is 20 dps.

[Ankerson]

No, Jim, it was Cliff Stamp. If Murray Carter had posted his video here then I would have said so. Cliff made his own video, and posted it where I could see it when it was topical to the discussion.

Please forgive me for stupid question. Do you know who Murray Carter is? His achievements? With all due respect to Cliff, I cannot imagine what Cliff can teach Murray Carter much about sharpening or many other knife related things.

Nor anyone else alive today for the most part, I would tend to guess there are very few people alive today that could actually tell Mr. Carter something that he doesn't already know.


Being he is one of the best knife makers on the planet today and in a very small group and that's not an opinion.

That's why it was so funny. :D

[jackknifeh]

I have been following the instructions (amusing video and written) that came with the Sharpmaker, and creating a 30d back bevel and a 40d edge bevel. However, on another forum I came across the following post from the man himself:

"40 degrees is recommended for all edges, "in general". Spyderco makes sure to sharpen all of our own knives at less than 40 degrees so our customers can resharpen more easily. Many are originally sharpened at about 30.

30 degrees on the Sharpmaker is primarily for re-profiling the edge when the edge gets too thick, "in general". In fact, regular reprofiling is better than waiting until the edge is "too thick".

The Sharpmaker is made for the general market, although it is effective enough for the "afi" market as well. Not everyone in the general market is sharpening only Spyderco knives.

Spyderco uses exceptional steels that should easily maintain a 30 degree edge. I personally use 30 degrees on all of my Spyderco's and I usually have a few that are much thinner for personal testing.

Those that are interested enough in knives to participate in forums are usually seeking greater depth in their information, than the "general" market. And the forums are a good source of info.

I'm sure others can provide additional info, but I would guess that most modern steels with a carbon content of .9 or above should be able to hold 30 degrees, and some, much thinner.

sal"

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -or-40-deg" target="_blank

So, how many of your more experienced guys go for a 30d (or less) edge? Does it really make that much of a difference in performance and edge longevity?

I typed a bunch then re-read it. I then highlighted in blue a basic answer to your question (I think). :) When I type this stuff I type what I'm thinking then I re-read it. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes I realize the only people who would understand what I wrote are people who already know the information. And they may disagree with what I've said. I'm not much at explaining things. :confused:

I started working on getting my knives as sharp as possible and learning about all this about 5-6 years ago. I consider myself knowledgeable but not all that experienced like someone with 20 years of knowledge AND experience. So judge what I say based on that I guess.

I don't think I have a knife in the house with an edge bevel as high as 40 degrees. I've been sharpening free hand for a couple of years so I don't know the exact angles of the edges on my knives. But when I was using the Edge Pro I NEVER set the angle to anything higher than 18 per side (36 inclusive). If I did have the edge bevel at that angle I always have the back bevel at between 10 and 15 (20-30 inclusive). The back bevel I used to thin the blade and make the knife cut better. Some people claim they have their edge bevels as low as 10 per side (20 inclusive) or even lower. I've never sharpened a knife that low I don't think. By using the Edge Pro for about 3 years I got a very good idea of what a 30 degree edge angle looked like. So now when free hand sharpening I know the angles are no where near 40 degrees at the apex. One time I used an Angle Cube to check the edge bevels on two straight razors I have and those angles were between 16 and 18 degrees inclusive. That's 8 and 9 degrees per side. I can't swear by the accuracy but it's pretty close. Give or take .5 degrees I think. I don't think an EDC pocket knife could hold an edge with angles that low. The blades are thicker in pocket knives but the edge apex would probably chip or roll at 8 degrees per side. This is based on how I use knives. But most people who have gotten into sharpening at a level above the basics keep the angles lower than the angles on the Sharpmaker. One reason for this I think is the blade steels have gotten better and can hold the lower angles than the steels that were available when the Sharpmaker was designed. That may or may not be true. If using the Sharpmaker for profiling and touching up I think keeping the "normal" edge angle at 30 degrees and the "touch-up" angle at 40 is about as "perfect" as you will get. If you get an Edge Pro sharpener you can use your "normal" and "touch-up" angles as 24 degrees (instead of 30) and 30 (instead of 40). These lower angles will make the knife cut better. The thing is for the average pocket knife we cut LOTS of different things. Trying to get the angles "just right" is only applicable when the knife is used for specific things. A butcher's knife for slicing meat or fileting fish are examples where a VERY low edge angle and thin blade are great. But if the butcher needs to seperate the bones in the joint of a cow leg he may need to twist the knife applying a lot of sideways force to the edge. If he does that with a thin blade knife with a very low edge angle the edge will probably chip. He would probably have a different knife for that type of work. These are reasons for people to get into more details of sharpening a knife. My EDC pocket knives will normally open mail or boxes. Sometimes I have to cut a small limb so my grandson will have a stick to play with (hit me with :)). If in a day's time you need to open an envelope or maybe cut down a small tree you need to carry two or more knives of different sizes or strength blades and the edge angles should be selected according to what the knife will be cutting. Spyderco examples: For small chores a Dragonfly2 with a FFG blade and low edge angles can do all tasks of a lighter nature. Then you could get a Manix2 with edge angles at a higher number (30 degrees) for cutting down a small tree or branch. When I cut branches I almost always twist the knife a little bit. But if you want to get into this level of sharpening at different angles you probably will be asking questions regarding the blade steel on different knifes. Then the plot will thicken again. :)

Over time I've come to not worry about the angle numbers. After sharpening a while and just looking at the edge and using the knives you know when an edge is good or the angle is too low or high. You won't even think about any numbers. Still, I've been through knowing the angles on every one of my knives by using sharpening systems that put exact angles on the edge. Even though I don't think about numbers much any more that experience has definitely paid off.

I recommend watching Murray Carter's youtube videos. He has one where he tests the edge strength of a knife he may have made and sold. Then the buyer returns it because the edge is chipped. He uses a bic lighter to test the strength of the edge to determine if the steel is bad or if he thinks the knife was pushed too far based on what it was designed for. This is a good example of different results you would get from this test depending on the edge angle on the knife.

I hope this made sense. If not please as specific questions. Lots of people here that can answer them if I can't.

Jack

[ncrockclimb]

Jack, thank you very much for taking the time to type all that out. For a noob like me, that post is incredibly valuable.

[jackknifeh]

Jack, thank you very much for taking the time to type all that out. For a noob like me, that post is incredibly valuable.

You're welcome. One suggestion. To become proficient at sharpening you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars over 3 or 4 years trying different systems or stones or strops. Spending the money for different types of stones and tools is definitely educational but it won't get your knives any sharper. Get a good system or a good quality set of bench stones and maybe a strop and practice using them. If you want to get confused ask what set of sharpening tools would be the best for an all-around basic setup. You'll get so many different answers just on this one forum it'll make your head spin. :) The thing is there are so many great options where none are "better", just different. Just for the record, IMO, and not because this is Spyderco's forum, there is not a better two stone set of bench stones than the medium and fine grit ceramic Spyderco stones. Same material as the rods in the Sharpmaker. Don't forget, it's all fun. :) Or is the word frustrating? :mad: You'll probably experience both. :D

Jack

[ncrockclimb]

My limited experience shows that what you are saying is good advice! I have the basic Sharpmaker set. I have gone from not being able to sharpen AT ALL, to putting a shaving edge that allows me to push-cut thin paper on my Delica. I am continuing to practice, and have purchased a set of the ultra-fine rods. Maybe in another few months I can get good enough to actually be able to use the new rods! A lot of the other systems and hand sharpening look cool, but I think I will just stick with the system I have now. I think it is better to improve my skills rather than chase a sharper blade by buying more stuff.

[Cliff Stamp]

... Are you saying that there would have been more merit in Cliff not making the video, but just rather always referring to the Carter video, since once a video exists on the internet all future renditions require reference to it?

I was using the brick as an actual sharpening device at that time, when I was talking to a mason who mentioned that those bricks are mostly silica and alumina, two actual sharpening abrasives and I was curious how they would do. The only real problem with them is that they are not actually graded so they are pretty random in composition. However I found that they actually work much better than you might think. The video I have isn't identical to Carter's as I don't do things the same, the three step process I use is similar to his but not identical. I start by cutting the edge off, I don't burr sharpen and I don't finish by stropping. These are all based on physics and how it effects the edge formation.

The big thing in regards to bricks is that kind of brick is actually really close to a sharpening stone, an actual concrete block isn't as that is just portland cement and actual sand. The sand abrasive is massive in size, as in single grit size and you need to change methods to actually get a blade sharp off of it and do things like edge trailing and ideally cheat a little by making some kind of abrasive slurry to try to even out the grinding.

In regards to sharpening in general, I would just note that it is a physical process so just think about what you are doing to the edge and apex physically. This sorts out most problems people have because they often remove it from direct results to some kind of art/fantasy application. If you think about it like you would pointing a tent peg then it would be a lot simpler.

[Ankerson]

^^^Fire Bricks for those who aren't familiar with them and what they are made out of. ^^^

Available at any home supply store.

[dbcad]

I have a 10x loupe. My edges looks smooth and sharp to me. However, I am not 100% sure what I am looking for. Any advice on what one should be paying attention to when using a loupe?

I like to look straight down on the edge and look for a reflection with the loupe. If you look straight down on the edge and don't get a reflection I believe you're doing OK :D

[enduraguy]

How about a serrated edge nugget of knowledge or two?

[bearfacedkiller]

I use the loupe to both look down on the edge as just described as well as to look close and make sure all of the sharpie is removed up to the apex. If the apex is blunted too much you are able to remove all of the sharpie and still not have apexed the edge. You want to do both. The sharpie will show you that you are removing material from the correct place but looking down on the edge will show you if it is apexed. I use red or blue sharpies because they are easier to see and sometimes the black sharpie can dull the reflection off the apex.

[sal]

Nor anyone else alive today for the most part, I would tend to guess there are very few people alive today that could actually tell Mr. Carter something that he doesn't already know.

Being he is one of the best knife makers on the planet today and in a very small group and that's not an opinion.

That's why it was so funny. :D

Hi Jim,. I've known Murrary Carter for more than a decade. I do not agree with your statement.

sal

[Ankerson]

Nor anyone else alive today for the most part, I would tend to guess there are very few people alive today that could actually tell Mr. Carter something that he doesn't already know.

Being he is one of the best knife makers on the planet today and in a very small group and that's not an opinion.

That's why it was so funny. :D

Hi Jim,. I've known Murrary Carter for more than a decade. I do not agree with your statement.

sal

Hi Sal,

I don't blindly agree with everything he says, but at least he makes sense and in his field of makers that forges their blades he seems to one of the more knowledgeable ones. :)

Jim

[ncrockclimb]

Sal, it is great to see you commenting on this thread. I really appreciate your regular participation in this forum. I hope that I am not sounding like too much of a "fanboy," but your comments in this (and other) forums are a big part of why I am such a Spyderco fan. If you are so inclined, it would be great to hear any sharpening tips that you think would benefit new knife "afis."

[sal]

Hi Sal,

I don't blindly agree with everything he says, but at least he makes sense and in his field of makers that forges their blades he seems to one of the more knowledgeable ones. :)Jim

I know a lot of good smiths. Most make sense. I also forge. I learn from all of them. I guess I just don't put one above the others. No worries, mate.

sal

[sal]

Hi Ncrockclimb,

There's a lot of really good information here. When I was training salesmaen to demo the Sharpmaker back in the 80's & 90's, I used to tell them that their loupe was their number one teacher and I was their number two teacher. Learn the basics and how to get a good edge, even on the Sharpmaker. Then get some flat stones and practice, practice, practice.

sal

[ncrockclimb]

Thanks, Sal. I really appreciate your input!!!

Do you (and anyone else who has an opinion) think that 10X is enough magnification? If not, how much magnification is ideal?

[sal]

10X is what I use most. Carry it EDC. 12X in my bag along with a 20X and often a 50X.

sal

[ChrisinHove]

Thank you for all the good advice - it's REALLY appreciated.

When I'm a novice in anything, I tend to follow the provided instructions to the letter, especially when going cluelessly "off-piste" could have potentially damaging effects. It's a generally effective but ultimately limiting approach.

PS. I can well imagine a Roman Legionary on the bleakest outpost of Ancient Rome being scoffed at for claiming him or his mate to be the first to sharpen his gladius on a brick.

[Ankerson]

Thank you for all the good advice - it's REALLY appreciated.

When I'm a novice in anything, I tend to follow the provided instructions to the letter, especially when going cluelessly "off-piste" could have potentially damaging effects. It's a generally effective but ultimately limiting approach.

PS. I can well imagine a Roman Legionary on the bleakest outpost of Ancient Rome being scoffed at for claiming him or his mate to be the first to sharpen his gladius on a brick.

Fire Bricks have been used by some people for sharpening for awhile in the trades since they have an Aluminum Oxide percentage that can be as high as 80%, think of them as a big heavy Norton India Stone.

Anyone remember those great big stone or concrete wheels that people used to use for sharpening, the ones that had handles on them mounted in a steel frame with a seat?