Share Your Sharpening Advice - The Catch-All Thread!

[bh49]

The big enlightenment in my sharpening journey came when I started looking at the edges with a 15x loupe.

IMHO a good eye loupe is the must.

[chuck_roxas45]

You're all wrong. Cliff will be along shortly to set you all straight.

[jackknifeh]

SOME BASIC SHARPENING THOUGHTS

For beginners.

You need to know what to do to the edge. I think the fastest way to do that is to have a sharpening system that controls the edge/bevel angle for you. The Sharp Maker is a very good one because it’s simple to understand and use. And let’s not forget it produces excellent results. The edge angle is key. The Sharpmaker has two angle settings 30 and 40 degrees inclusive. That’s 15 and 20 degrees per side relating to an imaginary line from the cutting edge up through the blade and through the center of the spine. Get the basic system (med. & fine rods) and possibly the diamond stones (rods). Please don't worry about the ultra-fine stones yet. I would explain why but this post is going be long enough already. :)

Let’s say this is the first knife you are sharpening and don’t know anything. It will take a little time and some practice but very soon you can get knives sharp. Set the Sharpmaker to the 30 degree angle and follow the directions on the DVD. Use a marker to mark the edge so you can see where your knife edge is contacting the rods. When the marker is removed from the very edge apex (where the bevels meet each other) you have a sharp knife. How long this takes will depend on the condition of the edge when starting. But go slow and be patient. Congratulations, you are done. Start cutting. Just a thought: If you try to go fast, IMO you will get nowhere but you will get there fast.

When the knife gets a little dull then you can set the Sharpmaker to the 40 degree setting and do just a few strokes per side. This will put a small bevel (micro-bevel) at the edge apex with a 40 degree angle. You can touch-up the edge in just a couple of minutes. Congratulations. Your knife is sharp again.

Now, at various times throughout the above activity look at the edge with a 10x or 30x loupe. You won’t know what you are looking for. So, just take notice of what you see. After doing the above you should see two separate bevels on the knife edge. The higher one (farthest up the blade) is the 30 degree angle and the bevel right at the cutting edge is at 40 degrees. These angles are a good set of two angles for most knives. Especially EDC knives. Don’t try to sharpen your knives at higher angles. But with the better knife blade steels available these days lower angles can be used with great success and cutting ability. That's another subject. One thing is always true regarding cutting tools. The thinner the blade and lower the edge angle the better it will cut. BUT, the thinner and lower these two things are the more fragile the blade and edge will be. Example: Don’t try to cut fire wood with a straight razor and don’t try to shave with an ax (No matter what Murray Carter does in his videos :)).

Now you have used a great tool to sharpen knives and you understand the different angles the Sharpmaker provides. And you should have very sharp knives. If you want you can now try to get more advanced. To do that you either need to get a more advanced sharpening system or learn to sharpen free hand.

The one thing I’m trying to focus on is you need to know what you want to do to the edge before you start. Someone sitting there with you can sharpen a knife with a system or free hand and show you the basics and explain while they work. That’s probably the best thing that could happen. But, if you are all alone you need something to get the accuracy for you. That’s where the Sharpmaker comes in. Or another system if you want. But the Sharpmaker is a proven tool and not nearly as expensive as some of the others. And,,, it works. For the record I don’t have a Sharpmaker nor have I used one. But I understand it and those who have used it swear by it. I have used the Spyderco stones and I swear by their ability to do a GREAT job. I’d recommend them to anyone who wants good bench stones. I know they do a great job on the Sharpmaker also.

If you then want to go to a more versatile sharpening system there are several. I’ve used the DMT aligner and the Edge Pro. In the past couple of years I’ve also gotten pretty good at free hand sharpening. Now if you want to learn free hand sharpening I still suggest starting with the Sharpmaker. Put the edge angles on the knives just like the directions say. Then when you want to start free hand sharpening you have bevels already on the knife and these angles work. Mark the edge with a marker and try to match the angles by stroking the stones and looking at where the marker is removed. Then, adjust your angle accordingly to remove marker ONLY from the bevels the Sharpmaker created. You will never be able to match exact angles when free hand sharpening. NO ONE can. Just work at keeping the angle as consistent as you can as you stroke. Pretty soon you will be able to get knives very sharp free hand sharpening. Since you control the angle with no help from a machine or system it takes longer to get free hand sharpening down. But starting to learn free hand with no guidance is really more harder. :) Try to start from a known good edge and try to duplicate it. Make note of how high the spine of your knife is from the top of the bench stone when your angle is where you want it. Personal note (I think this is important): When I free hand sharpen I use both hands and push the knife away from me all the time. The other way is to push the knife away from you and with the same hand flip the knife over and pull it back to you to stroke the other side. I chose to use both hands so I could look at the distance between the stone and the spine on both sides. I believe this makes it easier to keep the angle on both sides of the blade as close to the same as I can get them.

I hope this makes sense. One more thing. No matter how you decide to learn, all the systems and/or free hand take time to get more proficient at. You will have sharp edges sooner with help from sharpening systems like the Sharpmaker and others. But after you have sharp edges you can progress to the hair whittling, atom splitting edges after mastering any tool you decide to use. This level will take many months and/or years depending on how sharp you want your knifes and how much time you spend practicing. That’s for another post. :D

These are my thoughts and others will have different thoughts and opinions on how to get started. And their ideas may be better.

Jack

[Ankerson]

Oh, and the 3-finger sharpness test method is idiotic.

The first time in my life I read about this test, it was coming from The MURRAY CARTER. I think that he knows thing or two about the subject.

Pretty much the same as my educated thumb. :D

[Bill1170]

I'm pretty sure that Norton's India stones are aluminum oxide, not chromium oxide. Like Jim Ankerson, I started out on silicon carbide and aluminum oxide synthetic oil stones and various natural stones like Washitas and the Arkansas family. Diamond plates and Japanese water stones came later.

[Ankerson]

I'm pretty sure that Norton's India stones are aluminum oxide, not chromium oxide. Like Jim Ankerson, I started out on silicon carbide and aluminum oxide synthetic oil stones and various natural stones like Washitas and the Arkansas family. Diamond plates and Japanese water stones came later.

You are right, thanks for the catch, was thinking about something else while typing it up. :o

[ncrockclimb]

Wow. There is a ton of good information here already!

I'll throw out a specific question to move the conversation forward. From my reading it seems that many people who are creating CRAZY sharp blades use a strop as part of the process. It seems to usually be the final step. As a Sharpmaker fan and user, I am curious if I can develop a similarly CRAZY sharp edge by substituting the Ulrta-Fine rods for a strop as the final step.

So, what do you think; ultra-fine rods, strop, or both, or neither (it's all about technique)?

[bearfacedkiller]

I do not strop and I can whittle hairs off of the UF rods on the sharp maker. I can tree top my arm hairs very easily off of the UF rods and I have very fine arm hair. For me there is no reason to be any sharper and in all reality there is no reason to even be that sharp unless you are shaving or performing surgery.

[Ankerson]

Wow. There is a ton of good information here already!

I'll throw out a specific question to move the conversation forward. From my reading it seems that many people who are creating CRAZY sharp blades use a strop as part of the process. It seems to usually be the final step. As a Sharpmaker fan and user, I am curious if I can develop a similarly CRAZY sharp edge by substituting the Ulrta-Fine rods for a strop as the final step.

So, what do you think; ultra-fine rods, strop, or both, or neither (it's all about technique)?

I don't use a strop as a general rule other than for touch ups.

I use the stone to remove the burr. :)

[ChrisinHove]

The Sharpmaker instructions advise using the rods at 40 degrees, and to use 30 degrees to remove the shoulder on much-sharpened knives, whereas the advice above (and elsewhere) is to use 30 degrees plus a 40 degree micro-bevel.

I'm confused.

So far, I've simply tried to match the rod setting to what appears to be the actual angle of grind on the blade, with this favouring the use of the 40 degree setting as instructed.

Is it a case then, of ideally reprofiling the edges to 30 degrees to allow the creation of the 40 degree micro bevel?

Would a 40 degree microbevel on a 30 degree edge cut better than the factory set and maintained 40 degrees?

Does the reprofile to the 30 degree edge and microbevel allow easier re-sharpening, simply by having already removed a lot of the metal already?

I told you I was confused!

[Evil D]

I do not strop and I can whittle hairs off of the UF rods on the sharp maker. I can tree top my arm hairs very easily off of the UF rods and I have very fine arm hair. For me there is no reason to be any sharper and in all reality there is no reason to even be that sharp unless you are shaving or performing surgery.

Or showing off on the internet, and let's face it that's what matters most

[Ankerson]

The Sharpmaker instructions advise using the rods at 40 degrees, and to use 30 degrees to remove the shoulder on much-sharpened knives, whereas the advice above (and elsewhere) is to use 30 degrees plus a 40 degree micro-bevel.

Yes that's what the directions say to do, but in the end it's up to the user.

I'm confused.

Well it can get confusing sometimes.

So far, I've simply tried to match the rod setting to what appears to be the actual angle of grind on the blade, with this favouring the use of the 40 degree setting as instructed.

If that's working for you then I don't see the need to change what you are doing.

Is it a case then, of ideally reprofiling the edges to 30 degrees to allow the creation of the 40 degree micro bevel?

Reprofiling to 30 degrees will allow for fast touch ups using the 40 degree setting, very small micro bevel.

Would a 40 degree microbevel on a 30 degree edge cut better than the factory set and maintained 40 degrees?

With a small 40 degree micro bevel it will cut better in general, but it would depend the the use of the knife in the end if you would be able to tell the difference.

Does the reprofile to the 30 degree edge and microbevel allow easier re-sharpening, simply by having already removed a lot of the metal already?

Yes, that is the main advantage, fast touch ups with only a few passes on each side usually and it's done.

[tvenuto]

Actually it was Murray Carter as he does sharpening demonstrations both in person and on video, he has used various things like bricks, cinder blocks and assorted other things to show how simple it can be.

Cliff as usual just tried to take credit it as with most other things like it was his idea etc. :rolleyes:

Now Mr. Carter is a real pleasure to watch and is the real source of the information, NOT Cliff, have to give credit to the people as deserved out of respect to them.

Link to Murray Carter's shaving videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... E8627060B6" target="_blank



He is a good knife maker who forges his blades and is a Master Smith with a very interesting history starting in Japan. :)

No, Jim, it was Cliff Stamp. If Murray Carter had posted his video here then I would have said so. Cliff made his own video, and posted it where I could see it when it was topical to the discussion. The assertion that this constitutes some sort of plagiarism is absolute nonsense, and potentially libelous (although I'm no lawyer). Cliff did not dub his voice over the Murray Carter video and claim it was his, Cliff made his own video. Are you saying that there would have been more merit in Cliff not making the video, but just rather always referring to the Carter video, since once a video exists on the internet all future renditions require reference to it? The fact that I'm explaining this is just baffling.

Apophis, thanks for saving me time in finding the video, that's the one.

And thanks everyone else for just ignoring Jim's poke. I don't mean to derail this very productive discussion, I just couldn't take being erroneously corrected by Jim in a snide manner...again. Perhaps the ignore function is my friend.

[Evil D]

Well this thread went a whole 2 pages before it turned into a slap fight. That's more than I expected.

[xinam]

I've found great advantage to coarse diamond stone. It cuts all of my knives/chisels with no problems, makes quick work of most. The sharpie trick is a nice tool to gauge your progress towards the apex. Sharpening in a well lit area is always a plus as it allows you to see where the stone is cutting. After the coarse diamond I go to a ceramic stick setup in a v jig (sharp maker equivalent) for a few strokes to polish the high spots a bit clean up the edge. Muscle memory is your friend in sharpening and practice is KEY.

[tvenuto]

[jackknifeh]

The one and only thing that is always true is the thinner the blade and the lower the edge angle the better the knife will cut. This is always true and without exception. PLEASE DON'T FORGET THIS! Keeping this at the forefront of sharpening theory is essential. Most of the rest comes with time, practice and experience.

The Sharpmaker instructions advise using the rods at 40 degrees, and to use 30 degrees to remove the shoulder on much-sharpened knives, whereas the advice above (and elsewhere) is to use 30 degrees plus a 40 degree micro-bevel.

I'm confused.

It sounds like two different outlooks doesn't it? It's not. It's the exact same thing. The only difference is which angle do you do first? Do you put the 30 degree bevel on the knife blade first and then the 40 degree micro-bevel or do you create the 40 degree edge and then set the angle to 30 degrees to remove the shoulder? No matter which you do first you end up with the same thing. You end up with the picture below. You end up with a knife edge with a 30 degree "back-bevel" and an "edge-bevel" of 40 degrees. Different people will use different terms for parts of a knife edge or even the entire blade. Here is a picture to show the different bevels. The square section at the top is just the rest of the knife blade.




So far, I've simply tried to match the rod setting to what appears to be the actual angle of grind on the blade, with this favouring the use of the 40 degree setting as instructed.

Is it a case then, of ideally reprofiling the edges to 30 degrees to allow the creation of the 40 degree micro bevel?

Matching the angle already on the knife is almost impossible because any knife you pick up will have a different angle on the edge. That is unless it was sharpened with a system that controls the angle. So I'd go with the habit of profiling the edge to 30 degrees then using a 40 degree micro-bevel. This is a good basic edge to use.

Would a 40 degree microbevel on a 30 degree edge cut better than the factory set and maintained 40 degrees?

Yes it will. Using the 30 degree "back-bevel" (identified as 15 degrees in the picture above) will make the knife cut better because the blade is thinner than it would be if you only had the one 40 degree edge angle. Go back to the red statement above. Read it again.

Does the reprofile to the 30 degree edge and microbevel allow easier re-sharpening, simply by having already removed a lot of the metal already?

Yes. That's one reason why a micro-bevel is used. Removing a small amount of steel at an angle higher than what is already on the edge is faster than removing steel from the already created bevel. BUT, increasing the angle at the edge (micro-bevel) is going to result in a little bit of cutting performance being reduced. Remember, the thinner the blade and the lower the edge angle thing (red statement above).

There is another reason to use a micro-bevel instead of only one bevel. You want the blade to be as thin as possible and still hold up to the work it will be used for. So, you put a 30 degree edge on your knife. Or you can use a 10 or 20 degree angle. Worry about that later though. Just remember there isn't anything magical about 30 and 40 degree edge angles. Anyway, with ONE bevel of 30 degrees on the edge and if you are cutting tough cardboard the very edge apex may chip because the steel is too thin for that type of cutting work. So, you put a 40 degree micro-bevel on the edge. With the higher angle the steel will be a little bit stronger and won't chip or dull as fast. But, with the higher angle the knife won't slice quite as easily through what you are cutting. Hopefully, you can see there is a "middle of the road" edge angle for different cutting chores.

Sharpening a knife is a very simple thing. How it gets so complicated is a mystery to me. A man asked the sculptor "How did you carve a perfect horse out of a chunk of marble? The sculptor said "I just chipped off what wasn't horse." :D A sharp knife edge is the same. Just remove steel from the knife blade until the razor sharp edge inside it is revealed. :D

One last thing about micro-bevels and cutting performance and durability. Don't forget the higher the edge angle the poorer it will cut. Remember the red statement? A perfect knife blade IMO is one with one bevel at the angle that will cut well and still not chip or roll over because the steel is too thin. I sent a knife I sharpened to Murray Carter about a year ago for evaluation and sharpening. The knife I sent him was VERY sharp. It had a back bevel and a micro bevel on it. He said I had a nice edge on the knife but the micro-bevel reduces cutting ability. That statement was 100% true. But the reason I had the micro-bevel at a higher angle was to strengthen the edge apex. The knife was one I'd use for harder work than opening mail or boxes. So, I added the micro-bevel for edge strength. This was a decision I made. And it's a decision you will make when you sharpen a knife. The higher the edge angle the poorer the knife will cut. But the lower angle may be too low to hold up to the work you are going to use the knife for. If you whittle wood with a straight razor you will destroy the edge. The blade is too thin and the edge angle is far too low for cutting wood. So you are back to the "middle of the road" idea of getting the edge ready for what it will be used for.

SUMMARY:
Personally, I'd use one bevel of 30 degrees if I used the Sharpmaker. Then resharpen quickly for touch ups with the 40 degree setting. This is easy and will work fine. After 4 touch ups at 40 degrees re-profile to 30 degrees again and touch-up at 40 degrees. The Sharpmaker is designed for ease of use and you don't really need to care about the science or anything else.

I hope this helps. It's hard to explain something simply that is actually very simple. Good luck.

[bh49]

No, Jim, it was Cliff Stamp. If Murray Carter had posted his video here then I would have said so. Cliff made his own video, and posted it where I could see it when it was topical to the discussion.

Please forgive me for stupid question. Do you know who Murray Carter is? His achievements? With all due respect to Cliff, I cannot imagine what Cliff can teach Murray Carter much about sharpening or many other knife related things.

[ncrockclimb]

I have been following the instructions (amusing video and written) that came with the Sharpmaker, and creating a 30d back bevel and a 40d edge bevel. However, on another forum I came across the following post from the man himself:

"40 degrees is recommended for all edges, "in general". Spyderco makes sure to sharpen all of our own knives at less than 40 degrees so our customers can resharpen more easily. Many are originally sharpened at about 30.

30 degrees on the Sharpmaker is primarily for re-profiling the edge when the edge gets too thick, "in general". In fact, regular reprofiling is better than waiting until the edge is "too thick".

The Sharpmaker is made for the general market, although it is effective enough for the "afi" market as well. Not everyone in the general market is sharpening only Spyderco knives.

Spyderco uses exceptional steels that should easily maintain a 30 degree edge. I personally use 30 degrees on all of my Spyderco's and I usually have a few that are much thinner for personal testing.

Those that are interested enough in knives to participate in forums are usually seeking greater depth in their information, than the "general" market. And the forums are a good source of info.

I'm sure others can provide additional info, but I would guess that most modern steels with a carbon content of .9 or above should be able to hold 30 degrees, and some, much thinner.

sal"

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -or-40-deg" target="_blank

So, how many of your more experienced guys go for a 30d (or less) edge? Does it really make that much of a difference in performance and edge longevity?

[tvenuto]

Please forgive me for stupid question. Do you know who Murray Carter is? His achievements? With all due respect to Cliff, I cannot imagine what Cliff can teach Murray Carter much about sharpening or many other knife related things.

They are less stupid than they are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what Cliff could or could not teach Murray Carter. It doesn't matter if Cliff attended the Murray Carter University For Sharpening Knives on Bricks. The point is that his was the video I saw on the subject, and it drove home the point about finishing the apex regardless of grit, for me. Again, this was my experience. As Sal recently said, we are all students and we are all teachers. So Cliff may very well be a student of Carter, but he was my teacher in this instance. I was able to learn from him even though he wasn't the first one to ever sharpen a knife on a brick, and I don't somehow value his contribution to my knowledge less because of it. So I was not wrong in attributing to him a video that he did in fact make, and I don't think that he is somehow wrong for making it in the first place. These were my points.