Spyderedges: Different Blade Steels

[JD Spydo]

There's been some talk lately about how the Spyderedge works different with different blade steels. What I find extremely interesting about it is that many of your better blade steels for serrated blades don't necessarily translate into good blade steels for plain edges. A prime example is the great serrated/Spyderedged knives out of the H-1 Salt Series>> now there is no mystery that H-1 is by far not the best blade steel for plain edges even though it's not bad by any means either>> but it's been touted to be probably the best overall blade steel for the Spyderedge.

Throughout the years I've found AUS-8 to be great blade steel for Spyderedges but again not necessarily for plain edges. One of my all time favorite serrated edge/Spyderedged blades steels is 440V ( S60V). But in this case it's not a bad plain edged steel either IMO.
One of my very favorite blade steels of all time is Spyderco's ZDP-189 but I've heard it said by many people including the General that it is a bit too hard to make a good and dependable serrated edge and I've also heard that Spyderco had trouble with serrated edges made from ZDP>> even though I've talked to some Spyder Brothers who swear by it and think it's their favorite.

My AUS-8 Catcherman from years back and one of the oldest Spyders in my arsenal has been a dream in full Spyderedge and I don't sharpen it very often even though I use it a lot throughout the course of a year>> but I don't hear of many knife users talking highly of it for plain edges and Spyderco hasn't used it for a plain edged blade in years to my knowledge. VG-10 is decent steel for Spyderedges but I personally like it better for plain edges>> actually VG-10 is one of my personal favorites for everyday use.

OK let's talk serrated edges and how the different blade steels perform and which ones don't make good Spyderedges.

[The Mastiff]

Hey Joe. I always liked G2/Gin 1 plus ATS 55 in SE. Once I got VG10 and got used to it's edge I changed and haven't carried SE since. VG10 was easily the best stainless steel I used. ZDP was not good in SE. Too fragile IMO.

Joe

[Evil D]

I think you need a certain level of toughness with serrations, and then serrations by design aid in whatever loss in edge retention you may have from the tougher steel as opposed to a higher edge retention steel.

What I wonder is, could you change the shape of the serrations just a little, making them shallower and with less teeth, and then use a steel like s110v...what then? Would you lose too much performance by reducing serration depth? Some will argue that the points can hinder performance depending on the cuts being made (and I agree). I think what you would end up with is a SE blade that excels at slicing but still wouldn't be suited for the "sawing" motions people often made with SE blades.

[stalag2]

I never really liked ATS55 as a plainedge yet it does quite good in SE from my experience.

If you compare closely japanese made SE vs US you can notice a rather different profile for the tips, the US made SE are already 'broken in' the points are actually rounded portions of plain edge as if you already sharpened them a lot on the sharpmaker, this reduces the grabbing you usually see on OOTB jap SE.
This is the reason why i never sharpen serrations individually, as by doing so you sharpen the concave and never touch the points which remains pointy yet dull and snag materials like ****.
I dont know the reason of this difference but i can tell you that a S30v SE with jap style might lose its teeth fast when used on harsh synthetic rope or such...No wonder why they dropped SE ZDP offerings.

[Evil D]

I never really liked ATS55 as a plainedge yet it does quite good in SE from my experience.

If you compare closely japanese made SE vs US you can notice a rather different profile for the tips, the US made SE are already 'broken in' the points are actually rounded portions of plain edge as if you already sharpened them a lot on the sharpmaker, this reduces the grabbing you usually see on OOTB jap SE.
This is the reason why i never sharpen serrations individually, as by doing so you sharpen the concave and never touch the points which remains pointy yet dull and snag materials like ****.
I dont know the reason of this difference but i can tell you that a S30v SE with jap style might lose its teeth fast when used on harsh synthetic rope or such...No wonder why they dropped SE ZDP offerings.

I think you're right about the points, but it also greatly depends on what you're cutting, as those points can be very useful in penetrating some materials, which aid in performance.

[stalag2]

You are right, when cutting hard plastics and wood the needle points help a lot to initiate the cut.

I would be all in for a smoother version of the Spyderedge if it could accomodate the heavy carbide high hardness new alloys as i am still very fond of serrated Spydies despite their decline.

That being said i still need to get a SE H1 blade to properly test it out, but i'm reluctant to do so for two reason, the first being that i dont like Delica /Endura 3 type build (linerless, pinned, so-so clip), the second is how deep is the layer of 65hrc hardened H1 through the SE grinding process, it might be not that deep.

I might get a Salt Ladybug one day though or wait for a G10 Delica Salt ( Drooling / dreaming ).

Edit: I would be happy to test Veff serrations on a Spydie, they look smoother and might tolerate exotic steels better.
Just imagine how mean a Police 3 would look with a fully Veff'ed blade...

[xceptnl]

I would have to say VG-10 and the obvious H1 are my favorite steel for SE blades. I have also had pleasant results with AUS-8 in a spyderedge that I never got with a plain edge. Mainly in the form of better edge retention, but it also seemed to me to develop less of a burr. This could just be perception rather than reality. I was fortunate to handle and use some of the older (shallower) spyderedges and I think I would prefer those the most if I could have a choice.

[zhyla]

I think you guys might be overthinking this. I think the steel matters a lot less for SE. And because of that certain steels don't make sense because the added cost doesn't buy you much.

SE isn't magic though. My SE Tenacious works great but is the thing I resharpen the most.

[tvenuto]

I think you guys might be overthinking this. I think the steel matters a lot less for SE. And because of that certain steels don't make sense because the added cost doesn't buy you much.

SE isn't magic though. My SE Tenacious works great but is the thing I resharpen the most.

Keep following this train of thought. Why do you sharpen the Tenacious the most? Could it be the steel?

I would be interested to hear a well reasoned argument on why SE is less sensitive to steel choice than PE, when it comes to edge retention or cutting ability. I don't completely discount that this could be shown mathematically. However, logically I don't believe SE is any less sensitive than PE, they both have edges after all.

[Cliff Stamp]

I would be interested to hear a well reasoned argument on why SE is less sensitive to steel choice than PE, when it comes to edge retention or cutting ability.

If you are willing to use a serrated knife when it is really dull, and you are cutting materials which tend to fall apart as you cut them (like rope under tension), then this argument would make sense. That is pretty much exactly how a lot of people use them.

The main issue with serrations is that they are essentially a knife with a lot of points and the points are the most sensitive to loads in terms of fracture. It only takes one large piece of carbide in the wrong points to make them much easier to crack off.

Now you can make serrations without points, McClung used to for example just due scallops with no points at all - but this really changes how they cut completely.

--

As silly as it might be, the old Ginsu commercials showed a very strong argument for why serrations have a practical advantage over plain edges in that they can cut what would be extremely demanding materials for a plain edge and still keep cutting. This is because the points protect the scallops. You can easily take a serrated knife and saw into a tile, the points round, but the scallops will still "slice a tomato". For that kind of really demanding cutting serrated blades excel and since you are not at all using the knife like you would a plain edge then the optimal steel has to be different.

[tvenuto]

For that kind of really demanding cutting serrated blades excel and since you are not at all using the knife like you would a plain edge then the optimal steel has to be different.

Absolutely, but there is still an optimal steel, and your choice affects the outcome as much as it would if the knife were not serrated. In fact, because you mention the many teeth and thus many points, the steel choice might be even more critical on a serrated blade.

[yablanowitz]

I personally believe more toughness is required on serrated edges. My user C54S Calypso in VG-10 is missing several teeth where they have snapped off during routine (for me) cutting. I have not broken off any teeth on my H-1 SpyderHawk despite using it much harder than the Calypso. Ditto the Tasman I've beat around. ATS-55 performs much better in SE than PE on the C44 Dyad I've been using for years as well. The only serrated ZDP I have is an Endura that is so thick-edged that I've never used it, so I really can't comment on that steel.

[JD Spydo]

Hey Joe. I always liked G2/Gin 1 plus ATS 55 in SE. Once I got VG10 and got used to it's edge I changed and haven't carried SE since. VG10 was easily the best stainless steel I used. ZDP was not good in SE. Too fragile IMO.

From one JOE to another JOE I just have to give you a high five on both of those blade steels for Spyderedges. Like you mentioned some time back GIN-1 is in no way a premium blade steel for plain edges but it is not bad at all for serrated/Spyderedges. I've always had a special place in my heart for ATS-55>> but there is one distinction I'll make and that is the fact that ATS-55 is not only a great SE blade steel but I also like it in plain edge as well>> it's one of the very few that I'll will sing praises for both edge types from the same blade steel.

Another obscure blade steel that Spyderco didn't use a lot but they did use it on a folder that I just loved when I had it for a user and that is the stainless handled NATIVE model that had AUS-10 blade steel. The model I had was a combo edge and it seemed to do great in both edges>> but not as good as ATS-55 by any means.

Thanks a lot JOE I'm glad you pointed that out because I haven't even thought of GIN-1 in quite some time. And my very first Spyder was a serrated GIN-1 Mariner.

[JD Spydo]

I personally believe more toughness is required on serrated edges. My user C54S Calypso in VG-10 is missing several teeth where they have snapped off during routine (for me) cutting. I have not broken off any teeth on my H-1 SpyderHawk despite using it much harder than the Calypso. Ditto the Tasman I've beat around. ATS-55 performs much better in SE than PE on the C44 Dyad I've been using for years as well. The only serrated ZDP I have is an Endura that is so thick-edged that I've never used it, so I really can't comment on that steel.

YAB I'll somewhat disagree with you respectfully pertaining to the original ATS-55 big Dyad>> you know that is one of my all time favorite Spyders ever. Now I will admit that ATS-55 isn't quite as good as VG-10 but I still think it's a decent blade steel.

Now on my PE blade on my C-44 Dyad I keep straight razor sharp constantly by using one of my Ultra-Fine stones to touch it up with>> Now ATS-55 is not as good as ZDP-189 or XHP or even VG-10 for that matter but I find if I just touch up my C-44 PE blade very often and be religious about it I'm able to keep it very functional and super sharp>> it's not hard to keep it razor sharp if you just don't let it get too far dull.

Now I totally agree with you on the H-1 Spyderhawk because like my 440V, SE NATIVE I've put that H-1 Spyderhawk through virtual **** and have subjected it to extremely harsh environments>> and like the Timex Watch commercial used to say "It Takes A Lickin and Keeps On Tickin". And like the other blades I have out of the H-1 Salt Series it's a beast and it is geared for hard use. It is such a strange dichotomy that H-1 blade steel excels in Spyderedge but it just merely average in plain edge. But like the one Brother said earier that toughness and other properties factor in to it I'm sure>> which is why I guess AUS-8 excels in Spyderedge as well.

[Bill1170]

I agree about toughness as a key attribute for a steel to perform well in SE. Serrations see shock in use, need a high work of fracture to survive those shocks.

[Zenith]

Some food for thought.

[QUOTE=Sal Glesser;7643022]When Spyderco introduced the "Mariner" in 1982, with a serrated edge, (a Spyderco 1st?) we "pitched" 4 major advantages;

1. The serrated edge gives you a longer edge.

2. Often one uses the point of a knife to pierce the skin of a tomato to begin the cut. The serrated edge acts like it has points all along the edge.

3. The points of the blade protect the recessed edge which stays sharper longer, especially when cutting on something hard, like a cutting board.

4. The angle of attack of the cutting erdge to the material being cut is contantly changing as the edge passes through what is being cut.

sal[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sal Glesser;4484958]Hi HLite,

Tips are thin and will either break or bend why used for prying. Not a recommended activity for knives. For you to expect a tip to hold up to tough prying is, in my opinion unrealistic. I think if you were going to use one of our H1 knives for light prying, and you didn't want to eait for our fixed blades (still months away) I would suggest the Atlantic Salt. It is a sheepfoot which was designed to be full thickness almost to the tip and had demonstrated that it will handle light prying more effectively.

Other than the testing that we have done at Spyderco (lab testing), there are no other tests, that we know of, other than the tests Crucible did (mentioned below).

Boats,

Thanx for the kind words and support. When we did our testing, the PE model CATRA tested (edge retention) about the same as AUS8, but the serrated version's testing results were much higher. Normally, serrated edges will run about twice the plain edge of same steel and geometry, but the H1 was running about 4 times, up there with powdered metals. A puzzlement.

Hi Mete,

When the foundry rolls the H1, they roll to two different hardness, we end up with 58 for the blade material and considerably lower spec for the lock material. Not meaning to be disrespectful, but the two hardnesses are controlled by the rolling process.

Dick Barber, metallurgist for Crucible steels was curious as to why the H1 steel was testing so well and wanted to do metallurgical testing on the material. We sent them samples and they did their tests. In their micro hardness testing, they found the H1 was differentially hardening. Their explanation was as I described.

The were getting over 60 (64/65 as I remembber the report) at the edge of the blade, 58 at the spine and various hardness in between as they went from the spine to the edge.

The serrted edge version was higher (68 as I remember) which Mr. Barber attributed to the extra "work" (heat) required to serrate the edge over just sharpening as on the plain edge.

If you would like I can fax you, or mail you a copy of the report. Email me your address.

sal[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sal Glesser;13321822]Hi Me2,

Partially correct. The rolling process of binging the steel to the thicknesses that we require does in fact work harden the steel. Depending on the thickness required, it will generally be about Rc54+-. Then each grinding process adds to the work hardening process. Dick Barber at Crucible did a series of tests when we first began working with H1. As we, they too had many questions. After micro hardness testing from the edge to the spine, his conclusion was that each grinding process added to the hardness. That would be surface grinding, bevel grinding and sharpening, with the serrated edge bein harder at the edge than the plain edge by 3-5 Rc points. Hardness at the very edge was in many cases in the high 60's. We believe that accounts for the very high CATRA test results on serrated H1.

sal[/QUOTE]

So H-1 in high HRC at a low edge angle (serrated edges are lower than standard PE edge angle) performs in the same area as SE powdered metallurgical range if I am understanding this correctly. So why do we want anything other than H-1 in SE form?

My experience with H-1 be it SE or PE has been amazing so long live the cult of H-1 :)

Re-reading through the thread about the higher alloy steels chipping in SE makes me wonder if the lower angle of the SE are just pushing the boundary of these steels.

[tvenuto]

I agree about toughness as a key attribute for a steel to perform well in SE. Serrations see shock in use, need a high work of fracture to survive those shocks.

Shouldn't we see more clamor for a serrated knife in 3V if this is the case? Or are we running into a bulk toughness versus apex stability disconnect once again? Or is it just too costly to make sense when cheaper options are performing adequately?

[JD Spydo]

I agree about toughness as a key attribute for a steel to perform well in SE. Serrations see shock in use, need a high work of fracture to survive those shocks.

Shouldn't we see more clamor for a serrated knife in 3V if this is the case? Or are we running into a bulk toughness versus apex stability disconnect once again? Or is it just too costly to make sense when cheaper options are performing adequately?

I'm willing to bet that 3V or 10V either one would be superb for serrations. Because my 440V Native has truly proven itself to be one of the very toughest blade steels I've ever used in Spyderedge. I'm also wondering how XHP would be for serrated edges as well.

But going back to some of the older past blade steels like ATS-55 and AUS-8 which have both been proven to be excellent blade steels for Spyderedges IMO. And like JOE said the old GIN-1 wasn't bad either even though it had a bit to be desired as a plain edge steel.

Hey you could look at it this way>> just think about the blade steels that no one has mentioned yet? That should tell you something.

[akaAK]

I seem to have been fairly lucky with ZDP 189 SE as mine has resisted chipping up to this point. To be honest I have no where near abused the knife and it has handled most of my day to day tasks which are reasonably light. I have left it with the factory angles and only put a very small relatively obtuse micro bevel on it.

For VG-10, H1 and CPM S30V (the other blade steels I have SE or CE in) I have found rounding off the points is my preferred method of sharpening. My older knives in these configurations seem to work better for my uses. I am making the assumption it relates to the way I started sharpening SE.

My experience only.

[JD Spydo]

There are 2 blade steels that haven't been mentioned much>> one being ATS-34 and the other being Superblue. Personally I've had good luck with the 2 ATS-34 SE blades I've used but I've never yet got to try out Superblue in SE.

I've been told that ATS-55 is a slightly beefed up version of ATS-34 and with that being said you can reason that is why ATS-55 has had good success in Spyderedges. As far as I know Spyderco is the only company I'm aware of here in the USA that has used ATS-55 in their blades. Whereas ATS-34 has been used by a bunch of companies.

What's interesting about that is at one time ATS-34 was deemed a "supersteel">> I believe it was Bob Loveless who first tested it as a cutlery steel. Spyderco has a great selection of premium blades in ATS-34 and I never heard any major complaints about it.

As far as SUPERBLUE goes the jury is still out on it but I'm willing to bet it will be good for Spyderedges.