Warranty Void Question: Why no Disassembly Allowed?

[hunterseeker5]

Totally logical and well reasoned argument. I certainly can't find any fault with it. However, it fails to take into account the content of Kristi's initial post in this thread from a few years back, which I've quoted the pertinent portion of below, and the dozens of times that the accuracy of its message has be confirmed by her, Sal, and Michael Janich in the years since including Sal's reaffirmation of it in this very thread.

I think it has already been noted, first by Cliff I believe, that comments in the forum by Kristy don't overrule a written warranty.


I would just like to add that Spyderco's written warranty has changed since then to be more inclusive. It used to say, if memory serves, that disassembly voids the warranty. I remember when this newer more inclusive warranty came out, applauding Spyderco specifically for changing the written policy to what it is now: damage DUE TO disassembly voids the warranty. Maybe they've said similar more recently, post warranty update, but..... *shrug*

[Cliff Stamp]

[...]

As far as progress goes, the introduction of screws was not intended to allow us to take the knives apart ...

The fact that knives used to be handled one way isn't an argument that a change isn't required today. It would be just as invalid to say that people today don't need to get glasses when they have vision problems because they didn't use them in the past.

The simple fact is that there are parts in knives which were simply not there previously, very intricate pivot designs with ball/roller bearings, locks with many parts/springs, and in general knives which can fail to operate to desired specifications due to even minor contamination.

Can you polish a washer which was scratched due to contamination without taking the knife apart - no. Is this maintenance relevant to many older knives - no. That itself completely invalidates the argument because the maintenance issues are not the same.

[Cliff Stamp]

I think it has already been noted, first by Cliff I believe, that comments in the forum by Kristy don't overrule a written warranty.

The warranty is part of the contract and is protected as are all terms of the contract which can only be altered if both parties accept it. Look at it this way, if I decided to change the warranty can I? Why not? The answer would be as simple as - well if you wanted that warranty then you should have asked for it BEFORE you accepted the sale, you can't demand it after.

Exactly, and this works both ways.

In fact even if Spyderco changes their warranty in writing it can't be used retroactively, the warranty in place has to be the warranty at the time of the sale.

If you want to go further, there are actual laws in place to protect consumers and they can not be voided even if the maker/manufacturer tries to. Most places for example have "fit for purpose" laws which mean products have to be able to work as promoted. It doesn't even matter if there is a warranty, if a product does not work as it was described then as a consumer you are likely protected. Different countries have these laws to different extents, in some places (New Zealand for example) they are extremely strong. In Canada as well they are very strong and promotion can even be held liable for things like :

-all performance claims, even secondary
-demands for rigid data can be made on all such claims

This is even beyond any kind of fit-for-purpose claim.

--

Now bottom line, these laws only work if you are willing to use them - i.e. challenge in court. However many (if not all makers/manufacturers) will simply refund or somewhat negotiate if you are an educated consumer so your best protection is *be educated* and look up the consumer protection acts in your area/location.

[Evil D]

[...]

As far as progress goes, the introduction of screws was not intended to allow us to take the knives apart ...

The fact that knives used to be handled one way isn't an argument that a change isn't required today. It would be just as invalid to say that people today don't need to get glasses when they have vision problems because they didn't use them in the past.

The simple fact is that there are parts in knives which were simply not there previously, very intricate pivot designs with ball/roller bearings, locks with many parts/springs, and in general knives which can fail to operate to desired specifications due to even minor contamination.

Can you polish a washer which was scratched due to contamination without taking the knife apart - no. Is this maintenance relevant to many older knives - no. That itself completely invalidates the argument because the maintenance issues are not the same.

I'm not arguing that the introduction of screws doesn't mean you should or shouldn't be allowed to take them apart, only that Spyderco/Sal has said that the screws are a result of a change to ease repairs.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Say there was a knife company that had an "unlimited warranty" in which, no matter what you did with the knife, whether you were even the original purchaser or someone who simply found the knife discarded on the side of the road, they expressly guaranteed in writing that they would repair and/or replace the knife, regardless of whether you misused, abused, or did whatever with it, and all you had to do was either send in the knife, or, whatever remains of it you had, and you would either get a brand new duplicate of it, or one equalling the basic type of knife if the original was discontinued, what would happen as far as their popularity and other areas be like?

I once heard a story, I don't know if this is true or not, that someone found a screwdriver manufactured by a well-known American tool company on a street; the driver was mostly destroyed, and this person sent it in, and due to the company's warranty promises, the person received a brand new screwdriver of the same type, even though they were not even the original purchaser. I don't know if this was true or just an urban legend that I was told (this was years ago), but, that's the sort of "super warranty" I am asking about. Would such a warranty lead to major problems for the company, or not? A "no questions asked, you send the knife or its remains in, and we give you a brand new knife or do all repairs, our cost, all you pay is the shipping" sort of thing.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

The story I was told, by the way, may have been the Sears Craftsman one, which was supposedly one of the legendary unlimited warranty policies:

" Most Craftsman hand tools are advertised as having an unlimited lifetime warranty.[24] This lifetime warranty program was instituted by Sears when they began selling the Craftsman line in 1927.[25] This warranty program requires no receipt or dated proof of purchase. If the owner takes the item into a local retail store, it may be replaced or repaired free of charge.[26] In some cases, such as ratchets, the customer may be offered a repair kit with which to repair the item or an already refurbished item.

The full text of the warranty is as follows:

If for any reason your Craftsman hand tool ever fails to provide complete satisfaction, return it to any Sears store or other Craftsman outlet in the United States for free repair or replacement. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state.[27]

Sears has reduced the warranty in effect on many Craftsman non-powered lawn and garden products including rakes, shovels, clippers, brooms, trowels, pruners, hoses, sprinklers, hose nozzles, and other small gardening hand tools. Previously it was a lifetime warranty which on August 2, 2012, was reduced to 25 years with receipt required.[28] The lifetime warranty does not include precision hand tools, such as calipers and torque wrenches,[29]"


And that is what I am wondering: What would happen if a knife company such as Spyderco had such a warranty?

[hunterseeker5]

Say there was a knife company that had an "unlimited warranty" in which, no matter what you did with the knife, whether you were even the original purchaser or someone who simply found the knife discarded on the side of the road, they expressly guaranteed in writing that they would repair and/or replace the knife, regardless of whether you misused, abused, or did whatever with it, and all you had to do was either send in the knife, or, whatever remains of it you had, and you would either get a brand new duplicate of it, or one equalling the basic type of knife if the original was discontinued, what would happen as far as their popularity and other areas be like?

This company is called "Busse" and I swear that I hope as long as I live I never see them change or go under. Thankfully, at least at the moment, they're thriving.


I also, FWIW, own an extensive collection of Craftsman hand tools.... as does my father..... as did his father. And they are passed down. Do I pay a premium? Yes. Are they often better? Yes. Do I think I make that premium back by replacing broken ones? No. Do I care? Nope. Sometimes, it is nice to just own nice things and not worry about them.

[Blerv]

There are a number of companies with "no questions asked" warranties. What you really are paying for is an insurance policy (whether directly or not) on the basis that a number of people in your pool are prone to abuse the tools and occasionally have them replaced at no cost to them.

As a moderate, or even rational person :p, I much prefer a warranty that is fair and keeps the MSRP of the product line lower. Spyderco's warranty has never been anything but completely acceptable and I would buy the knives even if they had a 5 year warranty simply because I feel they would still far outlast me.

[farnorthdan]

ESEE knives would also fall into this category.

Edit: Beat out by the Blerv.... :D

[Evil D]

There are a number of companies with "no questions asked" warranties. What you really are paying for is an insurance premium (whether directly or not) on the basis that a number of people in your pool are prone to abuse the tools and occasionally have them replaced. ESEE, Surefire, etc.

As a moderate, or even rational person :p, I much prefer a warranty that is fair and keeps the MSRP of the product line lower. Spyderco's warranty has never been anything but completely acceptable and I would buy the knives even if they had a 5 year warranty simply because I feel they would still far outlast me.

That said, if I knew I could get a replacement blade, even if I had to pay a small fee, I would beat the snot out of some of my knives, within reason of course. I wouldn't mind if some knives came with one of those types of warranties even if it came at an additional cost.

[The Deacon]

Totally logical and well reasoned argument. I certainly can't find any fault with it. However, it fails to take into account the content of Kristi's initial post in this thread from a few years back, which I've quoted the pertinent portion of below, and the dozens of times that the accuracy of its message has be confirmed by her, Sal, and Michael Janich in the years since including Sal's reaffirmation of it in this very thread.

I think it has already been noted, first by Cliff I believe, that comments in the forum by Kristy don't overrule a written warranty.


I would just like to add that Spyderco's written warranty has changed since then to be more inclusive. It used to say, if memory serves, that disassembly voids the warranty. I remember when this newer more inclusive warranty came out, applauding Spyderco specifically for changing the written policy to what it is now: damage DUE TO disassembly voids the warranty. Maybe they've said similar more recently, post warranty update, but..... *shrug*

Still, there's the simple fact that it's their warranty, so how they interpret it is somewhat more important than what's written on paper.

As for your observation on the warranty wording. I just compared that on the Edge-U-Cation insert packed with a Lum Chinese Folder manufactured in 2001 with that printed on the box of a Native V Lightweight I received from NGK the other day. Both say that damage due to an enumerated list of things voids the warranty, and both lists are identical. So does the warranty printed on a box from 2004. I didn't bother to check every year between 2000 and 2014, but I could and I'd bet they'd all read the same. Can you back up your statement at all?

In the final analysis, the only thing that really matters is whether problems are handled fairly, not the semantics used to resolve them.

I still would love to see someone list a few "warranty issues" other than a blade break that reveals a large void or inclusion that would not be apparent when you first examined the knife and would also be things that could not possibly have been caused or exacerbated by the owner's disassembly and reassembly.

[Bodog]

It's easy to take a slab of .300" thick metal, do some magic with it, sharpen it, slap some micarta or g10 handles on it, sell it for 500 bucks more or less, and give a lifetime warranty. It's a little harder to do that with a thin piece of metal with small screws and pivots and springs and whatnot and sell it for 150, more or less.

[Cliff Stamp]

It's easy to take a slab of .300" thick metal, do some magic with it, sharpen it, slap some micarta or g10 handles on it, sell it for 500 bucks more or less, and give a lifetime warranty. It's a little harder to do that with a thin piece of metal with small screws and pivots and springs and whatnot and sell it for 150, more or less.

That is a complete miss characterization of examples provided, both ESEE and Busse.

Neither Busse or ESEE use 0.3" stock on all of their knives (or even most of them), not all of the knives are $500, and they have had those warranties when the knives were a lot less (Busse mainly). ESEE even has a folder coming out in 2015 and they have noted the warranty is the same as on the fixed blades.

[Bodog]

Regardless, even if sold for 100 bucks with a .200 inch thick slab, it's not going to break anywhere nearly as bad as a more precise folder. And I wasn't talking bad about other companies at all. They're made for specific purposes and by all accounts, they do it well.

[Gerard Breuker]

Voiding your warranty by disassembling your knife, failing to reassemble it properly and sending it in is still the only way to get the official hand signed "You are an idiot" Spyderco sticker. An absolute collectors item and well worth voiding your warranty to begin with.

Disassembling your knife is usually also the only way to confirm that your knife is actually a knife and not a fork or a spoon in disguise. An absolute must if you rely on your knife for self defense related culinary activities.

As Spyderco will always handle warranty issues in a fair and proper way the only thing the warranty is good for is voiding it anyway. Just remember that most knives have at least two screws that serve no other purpose then to confuse you and need not be used to reassemble the knife.

[Cliff Stamp]

Spydero makes knives which are thicker than knives made by both ESEE and Busse.

[hunterseeker5]

Can you back up your statement at all?

I can not, all I have to go on is my memory of the change. I would also add that my recollection of the change was from their online statement, and that it was discussed on this forum. I went to go back through my post logs, in the hopes of finding something, but discovered that anything beyond the first page encounters some sort of error. I believe this forum's transition may have had something to do with that, as posts pre-transition also appear not to link back in the same way current ones do. As such, I will just defer to you, my apologies.

I still would love to see someone list a few "warranty issues" other than a blade break that reveals a large void or inclusion that would not be apparent when you first examined the knife and would also be things that could not possibly have been caused or exacerbated by the owner's disassembly and reassembly.

Improper steel, heat treat, or passivation of certain component leading to premature corrosion. (one near and dear to my heart at the moment)
Improper materials or processing of spring components leading to premature fatigue or failure. (including liner locks and the like)
Improper processing of a blade, resulting in poor performance.
Improper materials or processing of a load-bearing component, causing premature wear or failure.
Improper sizing/seating of the ball detent causing it to fall out or become fully seated
Improper ball detent causing it to wear prematurely

Should I go on? There are plenty of issues which would be warranty issues that might not be immediately apparent when you receive the knife, and which wouldn't be caused or exacerbated by assembly..... so many in fact that I'm a bit puzzled as to why you'd solicit them. Alternately, if you were about to make the argument that someone, in a fit of asinine or incompetent behavior, would intentionally anneal their ball detent, spring, or lock components, or maliciously file away interactions I suppose such things are possible but beyond the purview of competent or often even negligent assembly/disassembly.

Regardless, even if sold for 100 bucks with a .200 inch thick slab, it's not going to break anywhere nearly as bad as a more precise folder. And I wasn't talking bad about other companies at all. They're made for specific purposes and by all accounts, they do it well.

I have Busses/kin (same warranty) ground as thin or thinner than any production spyderco I have ever owned or seen. (and there have been many) This includes, I might add, Spyderco's kitchen cutlery which is generally ground much thinner than their pocket knives. One of these in fact, the leanest of the lot, was also less than 150$ and no was not made of some hunk of carbon steel but rather a very popular current HCV steel which does not exhibit "exceptional" toughness by cutlery standards. So no, again your attempts to characterize all "warrantied forever" brands as outrageously expensive and outlandishly ground are false. I'll also add that the Busse ASH (image below) is comparable thickness above the apex to a Spyderco Para2.


Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Bodog]

Edit because I don't want to argue about spyderco. It's a good company that produces good tools. That's all that mattes to me,really.

[sal]

Interesting arguments.

Cost of Mfr + cost of warrantee + profit = price.

There are many companies that "sell" lifetime warantees in the price of their product. Tools, luggage, or whatever. They must operate on the above formula or they cannot survive as a business. When you pay a high price for a product that could be less expensive, you are paying for that warrantee/insurance. Nothing wrong with it. Just another "Business style".

We've thought about it. We think that the warrantee that we have now works best for us and our customers.

Assembly of a high tolerance knife is an expensive part of manufacture. We're not saying that you can't disassemble your knife....we're saying that if you disasemble the knife and it's not as good as we do it, we don't want to incur the cost of reassembling the knife properly without charging you for the labor.

Where it is really a problem is when an amateur dissassembles a knife (tinkerer), reassembles it and then sells it as "new in the box". Then the buyer finds a problem and sends it to us for "Warrantee repair". Then what? We can tell it has been disassmbled and reassembled improperly. It is not "new in the box". "New in the box" means tht it is assembled by a skilled and trained knifemaker. Perhaps the original owner simply wasn't skilled or knowledgable enough to know that their assembly wasn't expertly done. We would prefer that you don't, but if you do, we don't feel that it is our responsibility to fix it at no cost.

sal

[v8r]

The story I was told, by the way, may have been the Sears Craftsman one, which was supposedly one of the legendary unlimited warranty policies:

" Most Craftsman hand tools are advertised as having an unlimited lifetime warranty.[24] This lifetime warranty program was instituted by Sears when they began selling the Craftsman line in 1927.[25] This warranty program requires no receipt or dated proof of purchase. If the owner takes the item into a local retail store, it may be replaced or repaired free of charge.[26] In some cases, such as ratchets, the customer may be offered a repair kit with which to repair the item or an already refurbished item.

The full text of the warranty is as follows:

If for any reason your Craftsman hand tool ever fails to provide complete satisfaction, return it to any Sears store or other Craftsman outlet in the United States for free repair or replacement. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state.[27]

Sears has reduced the warranty in effect on many Craftsman non-powered lawn and garden products including rakes, shovels, clippers, brooms, trowels, pruners, hoses, sprinklers, hose nozzles, and other small gardening hand tools. Previously it was a lifetime warranty which on August 2, 2012, was reduced to 25 years with receipt required.[28] The lifetime warranty does not include precision hand tools, such as calipers and torque wrenches,[29]"


And that is what I am wondering: What would happen if a knife company such as Spyderco had such a warranty?

They will not warranty their products for professional use though. Been there tried that.

The statement made earlier as a example about vehicle manufacturers not voiding your warranty for taking it to a independent shop is not entirely correct either. It depends. Your independent shop uses the incorrect fluids, incorrect filters etc while at their shop for service will definetly void your warranty. Your independent shop does a engine repair or repairs a electrical issue and is not a certified technician for that vehicle manufacturer, it will not be a item covered by your warranty. Heck you do a oil change on your vehicle using a aftermarket oil filter that does not meet or exceed manufacturers specifications, you will void your warranty.

Many of the arguments being made are flimsy at best regarding Spyderco's warranty. Some of you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Bottom line is Spyderco's warranty is clearly stated and easily understood. Even if your knife gets a little dirty......does it lock open? Does it still cut? If it does these things that is all that should matter. If it is not stated in the warranty that a knife must be disassembled for maintenance then it doesn't. Guys I wouldn't read more in to the warranty than what is there. Reasonable maintenance and use is all that's required. If a screw is loose, tighten it up with the proper tool. If your knife is dirty, wash it with some hot soapy water, dry it and put a drop of oil on the pivot points. Not real hard to do.
I'm not trying to flame on anyone or anything, but I used to be a warranty administrator for a dealership as well as the service manager. I have seen what people have done to their vehicles attempting to make repairs themselves, and then expecting the manufacturer to cover the repairs.

Spydercos warranty and repair policy is very well written (in my opinion) and easily understood.They have a proven track record of awesome customer service, so what's to worry about? If you choose to disassemble your knife, then accept the risks that are involved.