Southard Aluminium

[Divo]

Your price comparison doesn't work for this comparison.

First and most importantly, the SR-1 is produced on existing tooling. No such tooling exists for your aluminum Southard.

The SR-1 Ti and Al versions are packaged substantially differently: wood box with tool vs. cardboard box with no tool.

The Ti and Al versions are produced with different steels used for the blades.

In addition, the wood box suggests that the price difference between the Ti and Al versions may reflect a lot more than pure labor and materials factors: the Ti version may be priced at a premium purely to support a premium market position rather than based purely on labor + materials + standard margin.

Your last sentence could also count for Spyderco. It will not change anything when you would work out my idea.
To correct you, the tool is also included with the alu version. Besides that what do you think one piece of such a simple tool will cost when you order a couple of thousand? Almost nothing. Makes it rather irrelevant when you look to the price of the selling price of the package.

More important.
I took the Lion Steel only as a general example, not a 1 on 1 comparison.
I think you are not very well informed about todays production options.
Besides that I think the production of the handle fromout one piece of aluminium is more expensive than one simple half we talk here in the case of the Spyderco.
It is not that difficult to find a production partner that has experience in processing alu parts AND can produce for low costs.
You constantly try to look like its is soo expensive and soo difficult that you dont see options to do that for less money than the titanium version cost.

[Divo]

I bet the biggest realistic obstacle to this is the lack of capacity in the Taichung facility... I believe it has been stated several times that they are at max, and have been for quite awhile...

I have no idea on what base Spyderco has made their contracts with these manufacturers.
Spyderco can let manufacturer these halfs elsewhere and deliver them then to Taichung.
Or Taichung themselves outsource the production of that part could be another option.

[Divo]

.

Another point that LC Kid addressed is that I hate aluminum on knives. I once owned a Southard, but if it had aluminum I definitely wouldn't have bought it. I don't even like steel frame-locks.

I described an idea where there would be a version ASIDE the current one.
You bring something into the discussion which is no issue.
Besides you both dont like the Original knife very much, so whats the problem?
Furthermore what you think is not a good reference for the rest of the world.
Try to see it wider.

[Liquid Cobra]

Spyderco has made less expensive versions of their knives before. Look at how the UKPK started. They went from G10 scales, carbon fiber and titanium to FRN. The FRN needed molds which would have introduced "new" costs in the manufacture of an old design.

I think it's an interesting debate, I'm confused why so many want to dismiss the idea. Isn't this forum a place for the exchange of ideas?

That said, I like my Southard the way it is

[gbelleh]

I like the Southard the way it is too.

But a few years ago, how many would've dismissed the idea of an FRN Manix 2? Now we also have the less expensive FRN Native 5 coming out soon.

It seems (assuming aluminum would work with the design), Taichung (assuming they have the capacity), has the ability to do it. They can already produce a titanium and carbon fiber laminate frame lock, with steel insert, flipper design, with a premium steel, for a street price less than $180. The Domino.

[razorsharp]

Call me ignorant but I cant see it being any cheaper- especially after tooling up for a steel interface.

And if its cheaper, I cant see it being any cheaper than getting a second hand Ti southard. Material cost isnt gonna make much difference.

If you wanted to make the change more significant than 20 dollars, you would need a different steel too, Like D2, BD1- Etc.

Also going to aluminium is just gonna turn off a LOT of people- Believe me.

[Strong-Dog]

.

Another point that LC Kid addressed is that I hate aluminum on knives. I once owned a Southard, but if it had aluminum I definitely wouldn't have bought it. I don't even like steel frame-locks.

I described an idea where there would be a version ASIDE the current one.
You bring something into the discussion which is no issue.
Besides you both dont like the Original knife very much, so whats the problem?
Furthermore what you think is not a good reference for the rest of the world.
Try to see it wider.

I understand that you described an idea where there would be an aluminum version along with the current one.

Who said I didn't like the Southard? I love the knife, I just don't own one anymore. It has nothing to do with not liking the knife.

I'm not speaking for the rest of the world when I state my opinion. I was simply agreeing with LC Kid that making an aluminum model might very well not sell at all, in contrast to pushing a lot of people over the fence as you described.

None of this discussion matters anyways, as I can pretty much guarantee that we will never see an aluminum Southard. In fact, and someone please quote me here in case of a need for future reference, if Spyderco does put an aluminum Southard into production, I will personally buy you one and mail it to you.

[Blerv]

Sal has said before that price is rarely a factor to where or how they build a knife.

If you want high quality cheap knives I would look to the FRN line or even the Chinese Tenacious line. If you want a Taichung quality flipper you will pay similar prices...drastically cheaper flippers are of worse quality.

[flash900]

I would much rather that Spyderco produce all-Ti versions of the Southard, Domino and Dice.

[Divo]

[bunch of irrelevant talk.

You think there is no market for a cheaper version?
You ignore the large amount of people that say in reviews the knife is a bit to expensive for what you get/in comparison to others.
You ignore the success of the Lion Steel of my example.

Problem with people like you is that you're locked up in your own thinking.
How much of your text is really a match with the discussion? Not much huh?
Your text has negative radiation but very little meaning. But its screwing up a nice discussion.
Try it in a different way with more relevanty to the subject.

You try to overpower me by saying you will buy me an alu version when it comes to production, blabla
Means you have really little to say. Its only another negative filling in the discussion. But rather empty. Better use your energy and words for some valid thoughts. Come on it cant be too difficult to see what I mean. Start disconnecting the idea from your person would help.

[Divo]

Sal has said before that price is rarely a factor to where or how they build a knife.

If you want high quality cheap knives I would look to the FRN line or even the Chinese Tenacious line. If you want a Taichung quality flipper you will pay similar prices...drastically cheaper flippers are of worse quality.

Hi,

No I dont want quality cheap knives. Thats a wrong impression.
(the following text you need to see in wider perspective than only fromout the view of knifenuts. Your and my personal preference is irrelevant here)

The current Southard is for many a little too high priced.
That is because:
a] Knives within this pricerange is out their reach
b] Some can afford it but finds it too expensive for edc. It ends in a closet. They are afraid to abuse and/or lose it
c] The knife is overpriced in general
d] When you decide to make that amount of money free for buying a knife, possibly the competition have more interesting knives for that price. More value for the money / a more appealing knive.

I didnt talk about cheap quality knives.
I was talking about a concept for a cheaper version of the (for many) overpriced Southard.


Although its not 100% exactly the same, have look eg to the Militairy that is also in diff versions available: G10 - Titanium

[Studey]

Your claims are that its too expensive...over priced is very different than expensive. I like the Southard as is, and plan to buy one. Part of the appeal is that it's a Ti frame lock. I wouldn't be interested in a cheaper version. The Ti frame lock is part and parcel to the design, IMO.

[endgame]

I think you can make one just like the m2 lightweight fiberglass scales liner lock or ball bearing lockinstead of the frame lock.you can keep the bearing riding pivot and use a more affordable steel.like vg10,440 or the steel they use on the tenacous I dont remember the numbers.just put hex bolts do not pin it closed.reversable wire clip.now you can get the same price for the m2 lightwieght for lets call it the "southard comfort?".make it in black ,clear,blue,and bright orange.guaranteed hit.stainless scales I love in my old byrd crow and raven I was pissed they moved to g10.polished micarta or wood."SOUTHARD COMFORT!"is born.

[Strong-Dog]

[bunch of irrelevant talk.

You think there is no market for a cheaper version?
You ignore the large amount of people that say in reviews the knife is a bit to expensive for what you get/in comparison to others.
You ignore the success of the Lion Steel of my example.

Problem with people like you is that you're locked up in your own thinking.
How much of your text is really a match with the discussion? Not much huh?
Your text has negative radiation but very little meaning. But its screwing up a nice discussion.
Try it in a different way with more relevanty to the subject.

You try to overpower me by saying you will buy me an alu version when it comes to production, blabla
Means you have really little to say. Its only another negative filling in the discussion. But rather empty. Better use your energy and words for some valid thoughts. Come on it cant be too difficult to see what I mean. Start disconnecting the idea from your person would help.

LOL. So if someone disagrees with you, and thinks the economics behind the business decision for Spyderco would not be feasible, than everything they have to say is irrelevant? My words mean nothing? Literally every word you have said to me I could say back to you and it would be just as subjective......but instead I posted twice actually on the topic outlined in the original post.

I see exactly what you are trying to get across, just like everyone reading this thread does. It isn't some complex idea that only geniuses like you can comprehend, it is in fact a very simple idea. Just because I think it is an idea that isn't a good one and isn't viable for Spyderco as a business doesn't mean I don't understand what you're saying.

Another thing going against it is that if Spyderco were to make an aluminum Southard, where is the consistency throughout the rest of their product line? Being logically consistent, would you not also want them to make cheaper versions of the Tuff, Rubicon, Domino, etc.? Is Spyderco just supposed to make an aluminum Southard because you and a few other forumites are biased towards it while leaving out their other expensive knives? It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint.

The last thing I will say is that the Southard isn't over-priced at all. It is expensive relative to the rest of Spyderco's offerings, but it contains loads of value for what you get. Where else can you get an all Ti frame-lock flipper, with bearings, with beautiful finishes on the components, with a treated lock-face, with one of the best steels used in the knife industry today, with a beautiful G10 scale and overtravel, with perfect quality in every knife (I've never even heard of someone having any kind of issue with one), and with a design by a knife god in Brad Southard? For what you are getting, it is actually under-priced in my opinion in comparison to what they could be charging.

[endgame]

; it all depends on who is buying it on how inexpensive/expensive it is.man I would love cheaper versions of my favorite knives I would use and abuse them a keep the xpensive one on display.of coarse there is a market.I dont prefer the southard but many do.remember its all up to sal and it would be 2 to 3 years down the line.its good to dream dont step on other peoples dreams.sometimes that's all we have!

[Invective]

Where else can you get an all Ti frame-lock flipper, with bearings, with beautiful finishes on the components, with a treated lock-face, with one of the best steels used in the knife industry today, with a beautiful G10 scale and overtravel, with perfect quality in every knife (I've never even heard of someone having any kind of issue with one), and with a design by a knife god in Brad Southard? For what you are getting, it is actually under-priced in my opinion in comparison to what they could be charging.

Probably not the best time to bring this up with the ZT 562/562CF just hitting stores :p I was playing with one at a local knife shop, hot diggity daffodil that's a brilliant knife. I think it hits on all your points, except for the treated lockface. KVT, M390 or Elmax, Steel lockbar insert, CF or G-10 scale, and Hinderer Design.

Framelock flippers aren't my cup of tea but I thought I'd point out other knife companies do build similar products for similar prices.

[Divo]

You have a very wrong impression. It has nothing to do with that some disagrees with me. It all has to do that you apparently are not able to pick up the core of the things I brought in discussion. And no I never said, neither pretend it is complex. Its not complex at all. Examples makes it pretty good to follow. Despite that you have chosen to ignore and to follow your own line of thought. Bringing in things that has nothing to do with the real discussion.

where is the consistency throughout the rest of their product line

You bring this as it is a key element in the discussion.
Which consistency?
You mean the large amount of different sprintruns?
The amount of refurbished concepts?
Or do you refer to the Sage with different locks?
Or were you talking about the different Manix models?
etc
etc

I see no single reason to think its sooo outside the normal Spyderco way of doing things.
In fact it merges perfectly in.

And yes, I already told the Southard is here the subject but where possible and when there is a market for it could also count for other models, eventually.

Then as last you map he knife to justify that the price is right . . . Again totally related to your very own thoughts.
Shows you have not understand anything of the subject and ignore all examples again.
But hey you are not alone here because the majority here has not the ability to disconnect the subject from their own personal needs.

[Strong-Dog]

Dear Sal,

I like the Southard, but honestly its too expensive to my like.
Personally I dont need titanium in such a knife.
Maybe it is a good idea to make a G10/ aluminium version aside the current one?

When I read this, I honestly thought you were trolling. Can you address anything I've said? Sprint runs and different locks have nothing to do with making cheaper versions of knives with (widely considered) worse materials. You have made clear the subject at hand is the Southard and other expensive knives, which have never been downgraded for pricing reasons. These knives in Spyderco's upper echelon are made with very different design concepts than making an FRCP Manix or FRN Endura.

You tell me to disconnect the subject from my personal opinions and beliefs, yet you actually say, "I like the Southard, but honestly its too expensive to my like. Personally I dont need titanium in such a knife." Are you kidding me? No one cares if it is too expensive to your liking, and why does it matter of you feel like you don't need titanium in the knife?

I think that your great idea is actually pretty terrible, along with many others as shown in this thread. And again, people disagreeing with you has nothing to do with them not being able to disconnect the subject form their own personal needs as you've said. In fact, the majority of people seem to be just fine with the knife the way it is, but it is YOUR personal needs of a cheaper knife with aluminum that cloud your judgement that maybe this aluminum Southard idea isn't a good business choice for Spyderco. If it was, don't you think they would have chosen to make it with aluminum in the first place?

[Blerv]

Knives like the Southard are intended to be HIGH quality production versions of the custom model. A segue into the world/mind of the custom maker for a fraction of the price. I don't know what a custom Southard Flipper would cost these days but I expect it to be in the $600-800 range. Of course, assuming you could find one.

Personally, my favorite knives are semi-custom or in Spyderco's case "collaboration" models. Due to the materials and royalties to the maker they are never "cheap" but they represent a great deal that people will actually use instead of wiping down to put back in the safe.

Consider this: Collaborating with a brand like Spyderco has to be a fun thing for most makers. It's great exposure and I'm sure leads to custom orders down the road. Most likely want the production version to be excellent as that brings positive press instead of the negative kind. They want to be able to show other custom makers the results with pride. For that reason, cutting costs is often a self-defeating path. At least for people who live and die by tolerances and impressing peers.

[Strong-Dog]

Knives like the Southard are intended to be HIGH quality production versions of the custom model. A segue into the world/mind of the custom maker for a fraction of the price. I don't know what a custom Southard Flipper would cost these days but I expect it to be in the $600-800 range. Of course, assuming you could find one.

Personally, my favorite knives are semi-custom or in Spyderco's case "collaboration" models. Due to the materials and royalties to the maker they are never "cheap" but they represent a great deal that people will actually use instead of wiping down to put back in the safe.

I completely agree, but a custom Southard flipper would at least be a couple grand. The collaborations are the subject of this discussion, and making cheaper versions just doesn't fit in with the maker's design or Spyderco's business model.