Sharpmaker - doing it right?

[ambrosivs]

Hi!

Recently I decided to improve my sharpening skills as to be able to maintain the wicked edge my new PM2 came with. I am practicing on lower value steels, Krupp 4116 among others.

My home sytem consists of a Vulkanus Basic for heavy duty grinding, and then a no-name steel rod you can probably get in any Walmart. I think I am quite good with it, I usually achieve edges that shave the hair from my forearm and can push-cut a few (1-3) inches through regular paper.

However, I can not achieve the factory sharpness of Spyderco on my kitchen knives. My goal is to get an edge that will pop hair on my forearm even when hovering above my skin (the PM2 sometimes does that). Even after borrowing a Sharpmaker from a friend, I still could only achieve the same exact sharpness I usually do with my home system.

So, what is the way forward? Should I practice more? Or should I learn how to strop properly? I tried stropping on cardboard surfaces, but didn't achieve any noticable difference. Or is it that the cheap steels cannot be sharpened that much? Should I get the Sharpmaker for quality steels or stick to my good old steel rod?

Thanks in advance.

[araneae]

Have you watched the video that it comes with? Maybe try the sharpie trick (do a forum search if you don't know what that is). What stones are you using? We need a little more info to help.

[Donut]

From what I've seen on some kitchen knives, they get abused a lot... You might need to do a lot of repair to get past all the chips and damage.

You could get to where some of the edge is sharp, but if there's still a chip it is still going to catch on the chip.

As far as I know, a "steel" is only good for keeping the edge aligned, it doesn't actually sharpen... unless you have a diamond or ceramic "steel".

[ambrosivs]

Have you watched the video that it comes with? Maybe try the sharpie trick (do a forum search if you don't know what that is). What stones are you using? We need a little more info to help.

Yes, I watched the video. I have not used the magic marker trick yet, if that is what you mean. So, I should be able to get that factory edge with the Sharpmaker if I use it right? Btw, I used the 30°angle and the brown and white stones that come with it.

[ambrosivs]

From what I've seen on some kitchen knives, they get abused a lot... You might need to do a lot of repair to get past all the chips and damage.

You could get to where some of the edge is sharp, but if there's still a chip it is still going to catch on the chip.

As far as I know, a "steel" is only good for keeping the edge aligned, it doesn't actually sharpen... unless you have a diamond or ceramic "steel".

Only two or three chips are detectable with my fingernail on a total of 5 kitchen knives, but even the chipless ones fail to reach my expectations.

Yes, that's what I read about steel rods as well, but I believe that is a myth :) For some reason I am able to sharpen with it very well. I am quite positive it is a viable sharpening tool, since theoretically, everything that can knock off an edge can also make one. In practice, I can both considerably dull the edge and considerably sharpen it, depending on the angle.

[araneae]

Yes, it should do the trick for you. Try the sharpie trick to see where you are hitting the edge; edge angles vary widely between companies and if you aren't sure what you have the marker may illuminate. You may have to work on the bevels. You should also try using the 40s to micro bevel the edge.

A steel only re-aligns an edge and doesn't actually sharpen or remove material unless as Donut mentioned you have a diamond coated rod.

[ambrosivs]

Yes, it should do the trick for you. Try the sharpie trick to see where you are hitting the edge; edge angles vary widely between companies and if you aren't sure what you have the marker may illuminate. You may have to work on the bevels. You should also try using the 40s to micro bevel the edge.

A steel only re-aligns an edge and doesn't actually sharpen or remove material unless as Donut mentioned you have a diamond coated rod.

OK, will try the sharpie trick in the next few days.
My rod has ridges, so it is probably a steel rod. I am confused: if it does not sharpen, only realigns, how come that I can perfectly restore a knocked-off edge in 50 strokes?

[araneae]

Its likely your edge is only rolled or deformed and you are just straightening it out on the steel. Actually as I understand it, repeated steeling will make your edges weak as you are just reworking the fatigued steel.

[chuck_roxas45]

Yes, it should do the trick for you. Try the sharpie trick to see where you are hitting the edge; edge angles vary widely between companies and if you aren't sure what you have the marker may illuminate. You may have to work on the bevels. You should also try using the 40s to micro bevel the edge.

A steel only re-aligns an edge and doesn't actually sharpen or remove material unless as Donut mentioned you have a diamond coated rod.

OK, will try the sharpie trick in the next few days.
My rod has ridges, so it is probably a steel rod. I am confused: if it does not sharpen, only realigns, how come that I can perfectly restore a knocked-off edge in 50 strokes?

Probably because the edge isn't knocked off but just needs to be realigned. Metal rods are softer than ceramics or diamond, they are probably even softer than knife steels and even less wear resistant.

[ambrosivs]

Thank you for your advice everyone.

When I "knock off" the edge, I make a few (~5) strokes perpendicular to the rod OR the Sharpmaker stone. In both cases, it becomes as dull as it gets. I hope I'm doing it right, but if you have a better way, please share.

As for sharpening with honing rods, I stumbled upon a professional who seems to share my opinion and experience, see link below. I actually developed my own technique by ignorant experimentation... when I intend to slice into the metal with the rod, I use considerable force (pressure). After grinding the bevel with the rod, I always go on to hone the edge by much lighter strokes: thanks to your advice, now I understand, this is when I actually realign the steel. Coarse grinding is of course impossible with the rod, it would take ages.

Check this out:

https://youtu.be/EAMhPlOI9l8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

QUOTE FROM YT:

Call Meh Captain 2 weeks ago
Correction a honing steel does not sharpen your knife or remove metal off the knife it just brings the edge back into a V shape, a steel is for bring back the edge not taking off steel. I should know I am a professional Chef. You can buy a knife sharpener that actually takes off the old metal and gives it a entirely new edge. Or get a wetstone. HONING STEELS DO NOT SHARPEN KNIFE! IT JUST BRINGS BACK THE EDGE. BACK TO EVEN.

Paul Iseard 2 weeks ago
+Call Meh Captain I am sorry to disagree with you and no disrespect to your professional integrity is intended. I have consulted the Cutlery and Allied Trades Research Association (Catra) for expert opinion on this subject and they have confirmed that a steel does remove metal from a knife blade. If after sharpening knives on a steel you run a piece of kitchen towel down the steel you will see there is a grey powder - this is the residue of the steel removed from the blade. of course there are a range of steels from very coarse to very fine and I do not claim that the fine steels necessarily remove steel from a knife blade. But the coarser ones most certainly do. Finally, I agree that if a knife has lost its edge the best remedy is to regrind it on a professional standard machine. I have a Catrasharp in my shop and provide a sharpening service to many local chefs and customers. Best wishes from the Steel City, where we have been making knives for 900 years!

[ambrosivs]

Metal rods are softer than ceramics or diamond, they are probably even softer than knife steels and even less wear resistant.

I don't know the exact HRC of my rod, but they are usually around 60. Cold Steels Krupp 4116 is about 56 HRC, and the other kitchen knives are no-name steels, so I guess they are even softer.

I haven't tried my S30V Para2 nor my wife's VG-10 Delica on the rod yet, but I guess it probably couldn't cut these hard steels, only straighten them.

[chuck_roxas45]

Metal rods are softer than ceramics or diamond, they are probably even softer than knife steels and even less wear resistant.

I don't know the exact HRC of my rod, but they are usually around 60. Cold Steels Krupp 4116 is about 56 HRC, and the other kitchen knives are no-name steels, so I guess they are even softer.

I haven't tried my S30V Para2 nor my wife's VG-10 Delica on the rod yet, but I guess it probably couldn't cut these hard steels, only straighten them.

Really? Where did that info come from?

Anyway, the only hard and fast rule in sharpening is, if it works for you, then stick with it.

[ambrosivs]

Really? Where did that info come from?

From various online sources, including manufacturer specifications, like:
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/arti ... l-Hardness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.wuesthof.com/international/k ... /index.jsp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have seen soft steel rods as well, like following:
http://www.amazon.com/Classic-17-Knife- ... B005K1KH5M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess I might have a harder one though.

[chuck_roxas45]

Really? Where did that info come from?

From various online sources, including manufacturer specifications, like:
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/arti ... l-Hardness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.wuesthof.com/international/k ... /index.jsp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have seen soft steel rods as well, like following:
http://www.amazon.com/Classic-17-Knife- ... B005K1KH5M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess I might have a harder one though.

I still would not use a rod because it will not wear away old steel and expose new steel. It will just realign an edge an make it cut better for a while but you will weaken it. That at least, is my experience. I'm not an expert sharpener but I can get a knife sharp enough.

I also have some experience with people who come here supposedly asking for advice but instead will "school" us on how things are. :)

Cheers. I'm out.

[ambrosivs]

I also have some experience with people who come here supposedly asking for advice but instead will "school" us on how things are. :)

Cheers. I'm out.

There are people with different learning styles. I'm one of those who learns through intelligent experimentation, analysis and debate. I am asking for help, but still being sceptical with the answers and trying to dissect and understand, and somehow integrate with my experience. There are other types of learning strategies and they work equally good. Anyhow, thanks for your patience.

[ambrosivs]

Maybe try the sharpie trick (do a forum search if you don't know what that is). What stones are you using?

I did the sharpie trick and am hitting the angles perfectly. Still not better. Only hair-shaving sharp, not hair-feathering sharp. I have a few hypotheses:

A) I may need a finer stone (i.e. Sharpmaker UltraFine).
B) The soft steel inherently can not be sharpened as much.
C) The blade/bevel profile is not suited for extreme sharpness (which I doubt, we're speaking of 1mm thin kitchen knives with a saber grind).
D) Something else...

I guess it could be one of the above problems (or a combination of several). Any thoughts?

[Birdman21]

Maybe try the sharpie trick (do a forum search if you don't know what that is). What stones are you using?

I did the sharpie trick and am hitting the angles perfectly. Still not better. Only hair-shaving sharp, not hair-feathering sharp. I have a few hypotheses:

A) I may need a finer stone (i.e. Sharpmaker UltraFine).
B) The soft steel inherently can not be sharpened as much.
C) The blade/bevel profile is not suited for extreme sharpness (which I doubt, we're speaking of 1mm thin kitchen knives with a saber grind).
D) Something else...

I guess it could be one of the above problems (or a combination of several). Any thoughts?

Here's something I don't think that anyone touched on yet...... PRACTICE! Not trying to be an a-hole, but sharpening to the level that your looking for is more art than science IMHO, and you seem like you are pretty new to the Sharpmaker system. u can ask 12 different people and get 12 different answers, a lot of it comes down to just a very refined touch of doing it for years and years. I can remember watching my grandfather taking fillet knives that were pretty dull and after a few minutes, he was able to use them to skin a flounder fillet with one hand. If u were to ask him how he did it, he would just look at you and shrug. Bear in mind that these were commercial carbon steel knives, nothing fancy at all. Keep at it, and keep experimenting! The sharpness that you are looking for is definitely attainable with the system and knife that you have! Good luck!

[ambrosivs]

Here's something I don't think that anyone touched on yet...... PRACTICE!

Yes, I believe you may be right. Today I spent a lot of time practicing with the Sharpmaker, and got better, but still not quite where I want to be. Well, I actually employed two tricks to enhance the Sharpmaker:

1) After finishing the standard routine, I took one fine triangle-rod in my hand and sharpened "backwards" (like a stropping motion). I also alternated tip-to-handle and handle-to-tip directions.

2) I repeated the above with the rod wrapped in printer paper.

I got to the point where I can push-cut newspaper, but not very consistently. Pull-cutting newspaper is a breeze :)