Corrosion resistance on VG-10

[JasonC6612]

Is VG-10 likely to rust? What exactly in the steel keeps it from rusting?

[demoncase]

VG10 is one of the stainless steel family- so rust resistant rather than rust proof...In normal usage with the occasional clean and oil it should be fine and exhibit little or no rusting- bolt it to different metals or leave in salty environments and it'll rust happily.

VG10 has a higher chrome content than some other common blade steels and is therefore more corrosion resistant. I've pocket carried and used a Delica in VG10 for 10+ years without any rusting.

What keeps stainless steels from rusting (in general) is the chromium content being above 10%, resulting in a molecular level transparent film of chromium oxide forming on the surface of the steel, preventing the formation of other oxides (like rust)

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H1 (as used in the Salt series) is different in that it is a true rust-proof steel, which has replaced most of the carbon with nitrogen, meaning there is a different mechanism preventing rusting. We call lump it in with the other stainless steels, but it's quite different.

[JD Spydo]

I've used a lot of Spyders with VG-10 blades over the years and I've never had a corrosion problem of any type with VG-10. However I'm very meticulous about keeping all my blades clean immediately after use. I had a mishap with my Caly Jr with the ZDP-189 blade by using it to cut up tomatoes>> little did I know that foods with high acid content will ravage ZDP-189>> Sine then I've been extremely careful to clean my blades immediately and even do preventative maintenance>> But again I've never had any type of a corrosion problem with VG-10.

The only blade steel other than ZDP-189 that I ever had a corrosion problem with was one time I had a little rust on the heel of an ATS-34 blade. But that's been years ago.

There are two products I highly recommend to prevent corrosion to where you don't have to worry about it at all. First off a company called Sentry Solutions has a product known as TUF CLOTH>> it leaves a rust proof coating on your blades to where you don't have to worry at all unless you encounter sea water or salt water period>> then all bets are off. Also the FLITZ company who makes an excellent metal polish that I highly recommend has a metal wax that works great and it even works on firearms as well.

[The Deacon]

Is VG-10 likely to rust?

That depends on how you treat it. Aside from stuff like H-1, that doesn't even fit the generally accepted definition of steel, any steel can rust if you treat it poorly enough. I'd just say it takes more neglect to induce rust on VG-10 than on almost any other knife steel I've used.

[Evil D]

Rust resistant, not rust proof, but it's a good steel. If you just don't put it away wet or covered with blood it's not likely to rust.

[endgame]

Stain resistant not rust resistant its "stain"less steel so it has less carbon in it so it doesnt rust as easy.vg10 is by far my fav steel

[Cliff Stamp]

Aside from stuff like H-1, that doesn't even fit the generally accepted definition of steel...

Where does that come from? H1 is very similar in composition to the 300 series stainless steels. It has a higher carbon content which is why it will form martensite in hardening. The very high nickel will stabilize the austenite which means it has a large amount of austenite at room temperature after the quench which is why, same for the 300 series steels, that it will work harden rapidly when drilled/machined/abraded under high pressure/temperature.

[Cliff Stamp]

VG10 has a higher chrome content than some other common blade steels and is therefore more corrosion resistant.

You have to be careful here because the chromium that forms the passive layer is the free chromium, the chromium which isn't in the form of carbides. As VG-10 has a very high carbon content which tends to form carbides, VG-10 will have less corrosion resistance than steels which have less chromium but also have much less carbon so almost all of the chromium is free (420J2 for example).

[endgame]

Cliff what do think about this rust resistant talk never heard that I thought stainless ment hust that cause high carbon steel stains with any acid

[Cliff Stamp]

I am not sure of the question.

When steel "stains" that is actually oxidization, i.e., rust. It is just a different type of rust as it can form in many different ways. Strong acids will tend to form a black oxide (normally called a patina or staining), very weak acids will form the red oxide (what is normally called rust).

[demoncase]

VG10 has a higher chrome content than some other common blade steels and is therefore more corrosion resistant.

You have to be careful here because the chromium that forms the passive layer is the free chromium, the chromium which isn't in the form of carbides. As VG-10 has a very high carbon content which tends to form carbides, VG-10 will have less corrosion resistance than steels which have less chromium but also have much less carbon so almost all of the chromium is free (420J2 for example).

Apologies- I over-simplified to the point of incorrectness :)

[demoncase]

Aside from stuff like H-1, that doesn't even fit the generally accepted definition of steel...

Where does that come from? H1 is very similar in composition to the 300 series stainless steels. It has a higher carbon content which is why it will form martensite in hardening. The very high nickel will stabilize the austenite which means it has a large amount of austenite at room temperature after the quench which is why, same for the 300 series steels, that it will work harden rapidly when drilled/machined/abraded under high pressure/temperature.

I'll chime in- there's some 'purists' in aviation that prefer not refer to H1 as a 'true steel' due to the nitrogen content.....We can argue the correctness of it, but I've encountered it also (resulting in a raised eyebrow from me).

It's that 'generally accepted' term which I think The Deacon is highlighting- "Steel's iron and carbon ain't it- with some other little bits"... I've heard similar too. H1 is outside the realms of 'common or garden' steels.....I was talking to a Lead Auditor from the CAA (UK's FAA equivalent) only last week about corrosion issues in aircraft landing gear and he'd never even heard of H1- then went on to say he'd understood stainless steel didn't really have any iron it to rust :eek:

Personally, to my understanding, H1 is a steel.

[Doc Dan]

VG-10 is pretty rust resistant. I live in 100% humidity and VG-10 has never rusted on me. It is not as good as N680 in this regard, but it is really good.

[paladin]

I've had really good experience with the rust resistance of VG-10...that is until an incident about 2 years ago:

Caly Jr. in VG-10 + Clorox Bathroom Cleaner w/Bleach vs. Duct tape adhesive residue

Found myself having to clean duct tape residue off some lab tables and did not have my usual front line tool (single edge razor blade) or solvents that I normally employ, ie: mineral spirits, WD-40, alcohol, even Germ-X hand sanitizer works well in a pinch--

with none of these available in the building....enter the Bathroom cleaner with bleach and my faithful sidekick, gray Caly Jr. vg 10 :)

I was a little apprehensive about using my beloved EDC companion, but I reasoned within myself, "If vg10 is good enough for Japanese gardeners, it should handle tape residue & bathroom cleaner, no prob. !" :cool:

And it did, until I noticed the next day that pepper spots of rust were covering the blade face like some case of metallurgical chicken-pox. :eek:

But, have no fear, with a few dabs of Super polish and about 15 min of elbow grease, my Caly Jr. was back to specs. (as far as the naked eye could observe) with no lasting negative effects...and that holds til today, about 2 years later. :spyder: :D :spyder:

[can't freehand]

Is VG-10 likely to rust? What exactly in the steel keeps it from rusting?

Among the "high carbide" steels, VG-10's corrosion resistance is very high. S30V actually has good corrosion resistance and it has both a higher carbon and lower chromium content compared to VG-10. Probably the only way to get it to rust would be to do one of those salt-water tests or throw it in the dish washer for a few cycles. If you're just keeping it in your pocket like any ol' folding knife, then it will probably never rust.

[Cliff Stamp]

I'll chime in- there's some 'purists' in aviation that prefer not refer to H1 as a 'true steel' due to the nitrogen content.....We can argue the correctness of it, but I've encountered it also (resulting in a raised eyebrow from me).

Nitrogen has been discussed in steel as far back as 1880 (Allen), it is also present in all steels as a trace impurity, how much depends on the exact manufacturing process and what is done to reduce it. Recently (meaning the last couple of decades) there has been increased interest in adding nitrogen to steels because of how it effects the micro-structure during the forming processes. With understanding of what is happening and manipulating the fact nitrogen with both be an interstitial element in the steel as well as form hard phases (nitrides, carbonitrides) then it can for example be added to HSS to reduce the austenite grain, increase the dispersion / reduce the size of the hard phases, and these effects and others increase tempering resistance, add to the fracture toughness and high temperature fatigue resistance and can add 2-3 HRC points at temperature :

- http://www.journalamme.org/papers_vol29_1/2912.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It has to be understood when you read an introductory metallurgy textbook or some kind of on line reference, it is just that - an introduction. The concepts are simplified to allow some kind of foundation. For example when you start learning math you first learn about positive numbers, then negative. Along the way you learn things like you can't take the square root of a negative, you can't divide by zero and so on. Later you learn that you can take the square root of a negative and it is in fact another whole type of number. As well infinites which come from division by zero are instrumental to solving problems in techniques of integration and are fundamental to modern physics (in renormalizing in quantum theory).

However it might not be practical to introduce someone to math by trying to explain all of these at once, hence you start off with the natural numbers which are used in basic counting and you build up from there. Each step that you learn you lose some of the rigid restrictions .

[demoncase]

I'll chime in- there's some 'purists' in aviation that prefer not refer to H1 as a 'true steel' due to the nitrogen content.....We can argue the correctness of it, but I've encountered it also (resulting in a raised eyebrow from me).

Nitrogen has been discussed in steel as far back as 1880 (Allen), it is also present in all steels as a trace impurity, how much depends on the exact manufacturing process and what is done to reduce it. Recently (meaning the last couple of decades) there has been increased interest in adding nitrogen to steels because of how it effects the micro-structure during the forming processes. With understanding of what is happening and manipulating the fact nitrogen with both be an interstitial element in the steel as well as form hard phases (nitrides, carbonitrides) then it can for example be added to HSS to reduce the austenite grain, increase the dispersion / reduce the size of the hard phases, and these effects and others increase tempering resistance, add to the fracture toughness and high temperature fatigue resistance and can add 2-3 HRC points at temperature :

- http://www.journalamme.org/papers_vol29_1/2912.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It has to be understood when you read an introductory metallurgy textbook or some kind of on line reference, it is just that - an introduction. The concepts are simplified to allow some kind of foundation. For example when you start learning math you first learn about positive numbers, then negative. Along the way you learn things like you can't take the square root of a negative, you can't divide by zero and so on. Later you learn that you can take the square root of a negative and it is in fact another whole type of number. As well infinites which come from division by zero are instrumental to solving problems in techniques of integration and are fundamental to modern physics (in renormalizing in quantum theory).

However it might not be practical to introduce someone to math by trying to explain all of these at once, hence you start off with the natural numbers which are used in basic counting and you build up from there. Each step that you learn you lose some of the rigid restrictions .

Preaching to the choir, sir....Preaching to the choir. :)

Sadly, lots of folks I deal with aren't interested enough to go that next step.

[The Deacon]

Aside from stuff like H-1, that doesn't even fit the generally accepted definition of steel...

Where does that come from?

Can't recall and, since it's not really germane to the original question, or the pertinent part of my answer (which remains one of the few in this thread that comments on VG-10's corrosion resistance) I won't trouble my brain with the pointless task of trying to recall something you will dispute anyway.

[Waco]

I've never seen a spec of rust on my Endura. I do my best to keep it clean and dry. I oil the pivot occasionally, but not the blade.

[PayneTrain]

There must be something wrong with me. I apparently can rust VG-10 pretty easily. Once it was my Delica that was pretty drenched in sweat for hours, but the latest was my Harpy which wasn't subjected to nearly the same amount of torture. It was in my pocket on a short boat trip (never actually got it wet or used it, being the caliber of fisherman that I am), and then hung around for a couple hours after and may have seen a little humidity in there, but nothing extreme. At the end of the day, the blade was freckled with rust spots, mostly on the hollow grind. I was surprised given what the Delica had to endure, and considering how well Cruwear did under the same conditions as the Delica.

Basically, from my experience, VG-10 is not an exceptionally stainless steel. I've had better luck with 204P, S110V, and of course H1. It's purely anecdotal, but all things considered, I think VG-10's corrosion resistance is pretty average.