HAP40 Delica and Endura

[DougC-3]

National Knives also lists the Hap40 Endura and Delica but not for preorder, and of course they're not in stock yet.

Edit: I preordered the Delica at KC but may still buy the Endura if it comes out first.

The the tendency of the 420J1 steel cladding of the FRN Super Blue series and 420J2 of the Caly 3 and Caly 3.5 ZDP-189 to pick up scratches has never bothered me, but it'll be interesting to see how this JIS SUS410 cladding on the Hap40 compares. Apparently SUS410 can be hardened and can be barely stainless depending on the amount of chromium.
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DougC-3]

Speaking of nice looking Delicas, has anyone seen this >> http://newgraham.com/Delica-Damascus-Je ... l-SFSW188/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ? (inlayed fire opal spyderweb)

I never have been much for "ornamental" knives, but if I win the sweepstakes I'll make an exception for this one :eek:

[CyberKlown28]

How does HAP 40 compare to VG-10?

[JoelDub]

Hey, I have been looking at Delicas for a while and when i saw the sprint run at Knife Center i immediately purchased. Now, i just want to learn more about it. I was a little concerned when i googled the steel because i only see it being used on kitchen knives. For those who know, how does hap40 compare to steels like m4, vg10, s30v, 154cm, zdp-189 and other steels like that. Doc Dan said that it was like m4, can anyone confirm or deny that.

[DougC-3]

Hey, I have been looking at Delicas for a while and when i saw the sprint run at Knife Center i immediately purchased. Now, i just want to learn more about it. I was a little concerned when i googled the steel because i only see it being used on kitchen knives. For those who know, how does hap40 compare to steels like m4, vg10, s30v, 154cm, zdp-189 and other steels like that. Doc Dan said that it was like m4, can anyone confirm or deny that.

It's very similar to M4, the favorite steel of many forumites, except that it has much cobalt. I have to run right now but will try to give a more complete answer later this evening and will also try to track down the other thread involved in the choice of Hap40 for this sprint. The zkinves.com site should allow you to graph the differences on a PC, or better yet, the zknives app on an android device.

[DougC-3]

How does HAP 40 compare to VG-10?

Hey, I have been looking at Delicas for a while and when i saw the sprint run at Knife Center i immediately purchased. Now, i just want to learn more about it. I was a little concerned when i googled the steel because i only see it being used on kitchen knives. For those who know, how does hap40 compare to steels like m4, vg10, s30v, 154cm, zdp-189 and other steels like that. Doc Dan said that it was like m4, can anyone confirm or deny that.

These charts at least show you how HAP40 composition compares to VG10 and CPM M4, and as you can see it's totally different from VG10 and quite similar to CPM M4 except, mainly, for the large amount cobalt in HAP40

Here's a quote from the original thread where this sprint run was discussed, to give you a little bit of an idea about HAP40 use as knife steel:

OK, more seriously...

Does anyone know whether this will be clad or solid? Has there been a range for HRC discussed? I googled this steel a bit and found the following on a kitchen knife site; my eyes bugged out when I saw what they claimed for HRC on their kitchen knives:

Introducing a Chefknivestogo exclusive! Kohetsu HAP40 knives are a new line that will appeal to the performance customer that wants unmatched edge retention. HAP40 is a semi stainless, powdered high speed steel that takes and holds an edge better than any other steel available on our site. We think it holds the potential to become one of the best steels on the market for the production of high quality kitchen knives. Hitachi manufactures this steel and it contains abundant amounts of hard elements like tungsten, molybdenum, vanadium, and cobalt. We heat treat this steel for optimal performance at 65 HRC and you will find this blade will hold its edge an amazingly long time. Handles are mahogany with stainless bolsters. Later we will offer these with wa-octagonal ho wood handles and buffalo horn ferrules.

Here's a link to the thread itself in case you want some background information about how the sprint was chosen:

http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... 6830&hilit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry I'm not a zoned out steel nerd, but maybe this will give you a little to think about until one comes along

[Doc Dan]

Thanks, I saw all of that when I was looking but was too lazy to post it. I appreciate it as now it is all in one place. HAP40 does, indeed, look like an interesting steel and I can't wait to try it out.
I wonder how thick the actual HAP40 will be inside the cladding? I also wonder about that cladding steel and its properties. SUS410 does not appear to be as hard as even 420. So, I am assuming it will scratch more.

[Jazz]

Softer and easier to scratch? Good grief!

[tvenuto]

Softer and easier to scratch? Good grief!

If it scratches at all...what's the difference?

[Brock O Lee]

My philosophy is, if you can't beat them, join them (the scratches)... :)

After I sharpened this SB Stretch flat on the FFG, the whole blade was uniformly scratched. Now, after 6+ months of regular use, it still looks scratched. So the unintended consequence was that the blade became scratch resistant! :D



Old and scratched vs new:

[DougC-3]

Thanks, I saw all of that when I was looking but was too lazy to post it. I appreciate it as now it is all in one place. HAP40 does, indeed, look like an interesting steel and I can't wait to try it out.
I wonder how thick the actual HAP40 will be inside the cladding? I also wonder about that cladding steel and its properties. SUS410 does not appear to be as hard as even 420. So, I am assuming it will scratch more.

Most of my knives don't get a lot of hard use, but my clad ones are some of my favorites and I love to use them and watch them patinate, so when they get scratches, I'm proud of that as well. As for the core thickness, eyeballing with low mag, the core of my SB Endura is around 0.8mm, the Damascus Delica VG-10 appears about the same or less, and the Caly 3.5 ZDP-189 appears to be about 1.0mm or a hair thicker, but I have no idea if these cores expand lower down or not.

My interpretation of what little I've read about SUS410 versus 420J1 and 420J2 is that they can all three be hardened, but that the 420 steels have improved ability to be hardened. But of course that doesn't tell us to what extent the 420 steels we've used were actually hardened. The 410 is a "13-Cr stainless," 420J1 is 13Cr-0.2C, and 420J2 is 13Cr-0.3C.

Grade 410 stainless steels are general-purpose martensitic stainless steels containing 11.5% chromium, which provide good corrosion resistance properties. However, the corrosion resistance of grade 410 steels can be further enhanced by a series of processes such as hardening, tempering and polishing. Quenching and tempering can harden grade 410 steels. They are generally used for applications involving mild corrosion, heat resistance and high strength.

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jazz]

Softer and easier to scratch? Good grief!

If it scratches at all...what's the difference?

The difference is to each his own, I guess.

[tvenuto]

The difference is to each his own, I guess.

[Jazz]

That's what I was thinking.

[tvenuto]

That's what I was thinking.

[Jazz]

I love Kramer. Thanks for that. I'm saying I'm not fond of soft steel that scratches all to crap. My Salt 1 I use hard at work is an exception. For the most part I want minimal marring (I know some will occur), if I can help it, on my EDC's. I'm not being unrealistic or safe queenish here - that 420 stuff is a really soft steel. I know others love the scratches (you're a sick lot ). Hence, to each his or her own. I just think a somewhat harder steel would be nicer for the cladding. Just my lonely opinion, obviously.

[DougC-3]

Well, all my opinions on knives are subject to waffling. Life's more interesting that way and it's like getting a new knife when I find out I really like one that I thought I didn't

[tvenuto]

For the most part I want minimal marring (I know some will occur), if I can help it, on my EDC's. I'm not being unrealistic or safe queenish here - that 420 stuff is a really soft steel.

I understand that preference, and I don't think it's wrong or makes you any less of a "hard core user." My point was merely this: if 420 was too scratchy for you, then 410 might be a little more scratchy (maybe not even noticeably so), but is still too scratchy. The only people for whom this change should matter are those that thought 420 was the maximum acceptable level of scratchy, and thus any softer steel will push it over into unacceptably scratchy territory. I don't think this group actually exists, so I think the change in clad steel is immaterial.

I think it comes down to either you like clads or you don't (given the common clad properties/purpose). Outside of highly non-standard clads (the PM S90V/154 comes to mind), you can probably assume a general set of properties. So as soon as we found out this knife was clad, as users, we had all the information we needed.

[Jazz]

Well, I don't like how you spend a lot for a fine looking knife like the Caly carbon fiber (very nice to look at and use), and it scratches when you look at it wrong. I love how the laminated knives look - no problem with that - I just have a problem with soft steel. I know it's been explained why. It won't heat treat the same, it makes it more flexible...., but on that note, they bend too easy too. Should be a better steel for the job. I don't know. Can any steel pros chime in?

[Brock O Lee]

If you do not like the clads, but want something similar to HAP40, you can look at the M4 GB1 or GB2, M4 PM2 etc...

It's a good way to rationalize spending more:

"But Honey, the $70 HAP40's scratch so easily, I will have to get the $240 M4 PM2... Yes I know thats too much, but then I'll have to compromise and get the $140 GB2" :D